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McLaren-Honda MP4-30 VII


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#2251 chhatra

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 19:38

That Alonso NSX is perfect for as a test mule for the new engine. Just imagine 3 days testing that around a quiet Japanese track somewhere.


I'm sure the P1/P1 GTR would make for a much better mule car.

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#2252 CPR

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 00:50

There's been so much abuse levelled at Honda I think someone has to put this year into perspective.  The fact that this years engine is so bad compared to the competition is seen as proof that Honda are inherently doing a worse job than all others but the truth is that they've simply put thier product on the track at a much earlier stage in its development. Mercedes had years of development on top of years of experence with KERS before they released thier product, Honda came in stone cold and went racing after a single year. For all we know the Mercedes engine would have been a disaster after one year of development. There's nothing to indicate that Honda fundamentally can't make a good engine in time.

 

Yup, Given the situation they faced it was always going to be very hard. Honda definitely underestimated the difficulty level... but then, I think pretty much everyone does too - fans, commentators etc. Not that anyone at Honda are happy or satisfied with what they delivered this year but they've also been pretty clear that doing it this way leaves them better prepared for 2016 than if they'd taken another year of development.

 

It's not been fun. It's not been pretty. But, 2016 should be completely different so long as the PU has no fundamental issues.

 

 

On a different note. Analysis of MP4-30 changes at Abu Dhabi:

http://en.f1i.com/ma...bu-dhabi.html/3

Autosport+ article convering the same thing:

http://plus.autospor...duct-explained/

Useful summary article for engines in 2016:

http://www.skysports...errari-for-2016



#2253 Alonsofan007

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 01:03

Only 2015 car allowed, so I guess Vandoorne will do the test.

 

Interesting that only ALO is at the "Honda thank you day", not BUT. Seems to be that the reports are really true that they pay him and he is a "Honda guy" and BUT is a "McLaren guy".

may be they gave this one to Alonso and that honda tv spot (which was awesome btw) to button, feels equal enough treatment to me.


Edited by Alonsofan007, 08 December 2015 - 03:03.


#2254 Lemans

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 01:53

Yup, Given the situation they faced it was always going to be very hard. Honda definitely underestimated the difficulty level... but then, I think pretty much everyone does too - fans, commentators etc. Not that anyone at Honda are happy or satisfied with what they delivered this year but they've also been pretty clear that doing it this way leaves them better prepared for 2016 than if they'd taken another year of development.

 

It's not been fun. It's not been pretty. But, 2016 should be completely different so long as the PU has no fundamental issues.

 

 

On a different note. Analysis of MP4-30 changes at Abu Dhabi:

http://en.f1i.com/ma...bu-dhabi.html/3

Autosport+ article convering the same thing:

http://plus.autospor...duct-explained/

Useful summary article for engines in 2016:

http://www.skysports...errari-for-2016

 

Thanks! :up:

 

Man, I can't wait to see the new car.



#2255 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 02:59

That Alonso NSX is perfect for as a test mule for the new engine. Just imagine 3 days testing that around a quiet Japanese track somewhere. 

In Racecar eEngineering Arai mentioned there is enough space in the GT NSX to fit the PU, but it can't be a hack job. They found it to be too expensive to go down this route.



#2256 Lemans

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 05:52

In Racecar eEngineering Arai mentioned there is enough space in the GT NSX to fit the PU, but it can't be a hack job. They found it to be too expensive to go down this route.

 

Translation: 2016 PU has already been installed and running in the back of an NSX test mule.  ;)



#2257 f1rules

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 07:01

Translation: 2016 PU has already been installed and running in the back of an NSX test mule.  ;)

 

i hope so, i mean how can anything be to expensive, what they delivered this year, nothing is to expensive to help make gains



#2258 Owen

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 08:54

McLaren-Honda have a challenge on their hands to return to the front, but Matt Somerfield feels it’s not all doom and gloom.
http://planetf1.com/...-of-the-tunnel/



#2259 blacky

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 09:04

Why in the GT NSX. Super Formula!



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#2260 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 09:44

Why in the GT NSX. Super Formula!

 

Arai addressed that too, not enough space!
 



#2261 muramasa

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 11:21

Thanks Muramasa for the report and pictures! Looks you had a great time at the very fun event.

I saw some pictures and videos on Twitter but nothing on the Honda news channel, at least at the time when I checked. Hopefully they will upload something there later.

Interesting to see Alonso on the RC213V. Any rumours of him taking a sabbatical to drive in MotorGP yet? :D

They set up cameras across the circuit like normal races to show on circuit visions, also i thought i heard announcer saying live-smth so i assumed they were livestreaming but seems that's not the case. Hopefully they would upload those footage coz they are all fun.

 

At the all-star Honda N-ONE race (Marquez, Pedrosa, Toni Bou, Nakajima sr, Aguri S, Takuma Sato, Takahisa Fujinami and Alonso), Alonso entertained a lot in a just 5 lap or so race:

  • When departing to formation lap, Alonso (on 8th grid which is the bottom) mistook something as green flag and moved forward 10 or 20 meters, realized mistake and stopped in front of Marquez who was on 7th
  • Then reversed his car to get back to the original position, and how he did it was very quick, smooth and precise so that it somehow looked comical, kinda like Mr Bean comedy :lol:
  • During the race, he was very aggressive, riding kerbs and going off track few times, at once he completely went off and run on grass run-off for 50meters or so. Also it looked he lifted wheel(s) by riding on a kerb once.
  • After the checkered flag, everyone slowed down but Alonso (finished 4th) didnt, and went in front of the winner Marquez by T2. Instigated by that Alonso's attitude, they all started racing seriously again :rotfl:
  • During the "cool down lap", Alonso did many naughty things like riding on kerbs aggressively, weaving on straight, driving on asphalt runoff area
  • Which made this scene below very funny as well, I mean they raced hard throughout parade lap up until the pit entry, but somehow managed to come back to the pit obediently :lol:

0dNYeMo.jpg

 

8jplemn.jpg

 

it's just about coming back to the pit after the short race but turned into sth hilarious thanx to Alonso, people were laughing.

 

 

 

Good to see this before Alonso to SuperGT, MOTO GP etc. rumors start up. He did seem to enjoy that NSX, though.

I think he had fun, but maybe he was more frustrated, he must have wanted to drive them more I guess.
He only did 3-4 laps on NSX, 2 laps each for MotoGP bike and MP4/6, all including both outlap and inlap (N-One race was 5 laps or so).

 

During the NSX GT demo-run with Sato's NSX roadcar (which was supposed to be 2 lap cruising behind Sato), you could see from his body language that he was frustrated and itching to go for it and try the car (cameras were set up across the track to show it on circuit screens). At 1st lap (outlap), he was hesitating, passed Sato once on straight but get back to his supposed position before the corner. But at the main straight, he finally couldnt resist, or rather like couldnt care less anymore and just opened full throttle and started attack run :rotfl: that moment cracked me up and the stand were laughing as well

Moreover he didnt come back to the pit when he was supposed to do and did extra 1 or 2 laps  :clap:  :cool:

Alonso is simply the best :lol:

 

 

I hope they release those videos, it's nice little entertainment.



#2262 kissTheApex

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 13:30

Moreover he didnt come back to the pit when he was supposed to do and did extra 1 or 2 laps :clap: :cool:

Didn't he do the same when he was driving Ecclestone's collection piece Ferrari 375 F1 at Silverstone for Ferrari's 60th year in F1 a couple of years back? He did piss Ecclestone and had to run behind the driver parade truck if I remember correctly.

Edited by kissTheApex, 08 December 2015 - 13:31.


#2263 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 15:29

F1 Racing – ‏@F1Racing_mag
Fact of the day: 71% of @McLarenF1 fans list 'comedy' as an interest.

Lol

#2264 mclarensmps

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 16:35

F1 Racing – ‏@F1Racing_mag
Fact of the day: 71% of @McLarenF1 fans list 'comedy' as an interest.

Lol

We follow McLaren don't we? This entire season was 100% comedy.

 

:p... :well:... :|... :(... :cry:



#2265 MirNyet

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 17:28

We follow McLaren don't we? This entire season was 100% comedy.

 

:p... :well:... :|... :(... :cry:

 

More Hammer Horror :)



#2266 mp4x

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 17:41

Now pictures worked, I want videos please  :clap:

It's one of the things he tried (RC213V), I didn't find any other thing.

https://www.youtube....gR8&app=desktop



#2267 muramasa

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 20:33


found bike vids







pics
01.jpg

 

01.jpg

 

 

01.jpg

 

 

01.jpg

 

01.jpg

 

 

01.jpg

 

 

36.jpg

 

 

img_ph08-b.jpg

 

 

988643.jpg

 

41.jpg

 

http://www.honda.co....td/index-4.html

http://www.honda.co....15/photoreport/

http://as-web.jp/pho...p=621&cnt=29782

http://response.jp/a...586/988643.html



#2268 chhatra

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:36

Guys I'm just going to say it....we are going to win next year.

#2269 AustinF1

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:51

Guys I'm just going to say it....we are going to win next year.

OK, I can't say I disagree. I have a good feeling myself ... but on what is this statement based?



#2270 frewin90

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 07:21

Hmmm, I dunno...

I think we need to be realistic so that we arent shot down and only surprised if win/s did happen!

Realistically, actually fighting the top teams with podium potential would be an incredible improvement and a great achievement.

Saying we will be properly beating Merc and Ferrari is a brave call. But next year will be lots better and from there, the future championship charge can truly begin

Never know though, closing that gap and having some luck could give McHon some surprising results. About time they had good luck, this year has been unreal - not talking about performance - in terms of bad luck, so many unavoidable incidents.
Badly looking forward to 2016, esp quali in Aus. Gonna be a long, hard winter!

Edited by frewin90, 09 December 2015 - 07:23.


#2271 Marklar

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 09:17

I say it will be a 4 way battle between McLaren, Williams, Red Bull and Force India for P3.

#2272 muramasa

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 09:47

 

Brazil GP Japanese source info summary (race day: done fri and sat already in that weekend)
http://as-web.jp/new...c_id=1&no=69588
http://sportiva.shue...5/11/18/f1_100/

also f1 sokuho

 

  • Engine itself is the newest spec 4, same as Friday's and Saturday's, but as for data settings, you have to make detailed and full adjustments to each unit. Therefore if you make engine change after qualifying, you get handicap that you are not able to use prior set of settings. Of course we made adjustments as much as we could, but it was not quite what it should've been, so Alonso must have had a hard time.
  • as is obvious, it's tough if you are not able to make proper running in each and every scheduled session without trouble. In that sense, we are made to realize that we must not make any trouble no matter what day it is. It's because we are still not quite up to it.
  •  That we are still encountering new troubles that we haven't experienced before at this stage means we are not capable yet. PU development is about increasing output while improving reliability like running and catching 2 hares that contradict each other, and it's true that there's big gap to rivals. But you cannot win unless you overcome it. We have to review all components and refine quality control thoroughly. We are going to prepare for next season by utilizing experience of tackling problems we had this year.

Alonso's PU
- Friday issue: damage possibly caused by misfire at the end of USGP
- Sat issue: internal component of engine by a supplier estimated as a cause

  • Regarding this weekend's troubles, something we haven't encountered before is happening. It can still be possible that there's fragile/flawed parts in design, but at the moment we consider it as manufacturing quality issue that's particular to certain lot. That an unexpected happens means that there's still long way to go for us.
  • Spec 4 has been developed by placing output increase as main purpose, and we are able to realize/confirm performance gain. Plus it's not that those troubles are related to the update. However we are chasing 2 hares, one is to increase power the other is to improve reliability, so we recognize that we are far from other makers standards who have been tackling the demanding task for 2 years. So we cannot say "catch up and surpass" unless we take advantage of this painful experience properly.

 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

Abu Dhabi GP japanese source info summary

http://as-web.jp/new...c_id=1&no=69892
http://as-web.jp/new...c_id=1&no=69852
http://as-web.jp/new...c_id=1&no=69813
http://sportiva.shue...5/12/02/f11217/

also f1 sokuho

 

FP1

 Alonso's PU:
       ES failure -> swap ES (previously used one)
       possible cause: vibration

 

  • Today Alonso was confident on slow sectors. The car must have been to his liking. He said "Much progress" immediately after session started but after that he just continued driving without saying anything. At the end, he maybe had enough and even said "that's it". He was told to drive more by engineer so continued running tho.

on chassis setting (anonymous McLaren-Honda mechanic quoted)

  • After various trial and error, we reached the conclusion that this setting is the best compromise. Which is, easing high rake setting we had been running with a bit and making suspension softer. That's why we had such amount of sparks here.

 

 

Quali

  • Nando's car has had good feeling since FP1 so we thought we could do it this time. JB struggled a bit on the 1st day but changed setting according to Alonso's friday data and set good lap time as a result, so both drivers were happy.
  • So we had a feeling that we could have good result today. In fact it was going well until middle of Q1 and it looked like we might reach Q3 for the first time this season, so when we heard "puncture" on the radio, we are so disappointed.
  • Fernando dont talk anything when things are going well, and usually you don't use radio during attack lap, so when we heard the noise of radio-on, we knew something had happened.
  • Debris that punctured Alonso's tyre left damage mark on the car bodywork as well
  • ALO was setting personal best until S2, so if nothing happened he would've easily gone through to Q1 and if he could continue the momentum, he might have reached Q3. So very disappointed.

Race

  • We left quite a bit of deployment management/handling to the drivers. The issue itself that we lack deployment hasn't changed and cannot be fixed for this year, but we are gradually able to cover/conceal the deficit to some extent. (context is JB's ok pace/performance in the race and JB managed to hold Bottas toward chequered flag)
  • Alonso had issue in ES in the race, sometimes ERS didn't function properly and we had uneasy moments.

On this season and next

  • We grasp the gap between us and rivals in the season, so already started taking method to catch up. It will be tough winter break, but we'd like to enter the new season by preparing well.
  • We appreciate fan's support so much, and realize that we are not able to answer to that. But we are still getting warm support, so extremely thankful for that. It's a competition so it's just natural that we are receiving tough opinion, and we consider that as expectation reversed. No one challenges thinking you might lose. Next year we will do our utmost to achieve good result. I think that's all I can say for now.

 

 

 

[all Arai quote except the "unnamed mclaren mechanic" part]


Edited by muramasa, 09 December 2015 - 20:45.


#2273 Frankbullitt

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:37

Its odd seeing Marlboro on a car again.



#2274 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 12:32

Guys I'm just going to say it....we are going to win next year.

To win what?

 

To win WDC and WCC: Sure   ;)

To win a race: Very unlikely  :rolleyes:


Edited by RYARLE, 09 December 2015 - 12:36.


#2275 chhatra

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 13:33

OK, I can't say I disagree. I have a good feeling myself ... but on what is this statement based?


Based on my gut instinct really.

#2276 sopa

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 13:51

Well... I don't want to comment much here, because McLaren-Honda of 2015 is exactly what it seemed like after the Australian GP weekend. The worst so-called big team performance I have... seen for decades at least! (if not ever) If you are 5-6 seconds off the pace, it means you have done no homework at all and are hopelessly lagging behind. It is like a decade ago an untested new Minardi being that much off the pace in the season opener.

 

The big surprise was that basically they could not improve at all during the season (since the Malaysian, etc rounds, where they cut the deficit down to 2-3 secs). Not even to the level of the Saubers of this world. Which means that both the PU regulations are tight and Honda really have deep fundamental problems.

 

Also during the season it was discussed that Honda is too conservative and hasn't hired the best specialists around the world, which is holding them back. Or their overall F1 project startegy has been wrong - maybe they entered F1 too early, but even by the standards of a "testing year" they were very much unprepared. On the back of such a bad performance all these claims have a point.



#2277 dracang

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 15:25

I found this video of Alonso in the MP4/6

 



#2278 CPR

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 17:34

Interesting post over at F1 technical:

http://www.f1technic...=612437#p612437

 

Basically it says that the problems were localised heat and vibrations in the TC at high rpm and that down-tuning it for reliability cost 60-80 hp (not stated, but I guess that's for quali mode).

 

This is not official information and it could be fake, incomplete or heavily biased... but it feels quite reasonable to me. Feels like something from an engineer.

 

Arai has previously stated that they fully understood the problems about half-way through the year. I hope that means they were able to prove this by validating a prototype solution - else I'd say that they haven't fully understood it.



#2279 UraNage

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 17:37

Guys I'm just going to say it....we are going to win next year.

probably mchon will spend the first 3 races adjusting the car in all aspects

if there is a race they will win in 2016 iam near sure it will be suzuka gp 2016 i'd even put money on it. 



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#2280 CPR

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 01:43

Hmmm, I dunno...

I think we need to be realistic so that we arent shot down and only surprised if win/s did happen!

Realistically, actually fighting the top teams with podium potential would be an incredible improvement and a great achievement.

Saying we will be properly beating Merc and Ferrari is a brave call. But next year will be lots better and from there, the future championship charge can truly begin

Never know though, closing that gap and having some luck could give McHon some surprising results. About time they had good luck, this year has been unreal - not talking about performance - in terms of bad luck, so many unavoidable incidents.
Badly looking forward to 2016, esp quali in Aus. Gonna be a long, hard winter!


Realistically...

We had the worst reliability this year by far. It should improve hugely but we'll probably still have worse reliability than most teams both in testing and during the season. While I would love to see the car racking up the miles and doing repeated hot laps during winter testing, I don't think we should get too worked up with teething problems and the odd stoppage or middling mileage. I just really really hope that if we do get in to a position to go for a race win that reliability doesn't let us down.

 

Realistically...

 

Though the car philosophy will stay the same, it'll still take time to optimise the setup, particularly if the PU does deliver as expected since that'll mean the various loads on the car will increase significantly. Testing is there for a reason and we can't expect the car to be perfect out of the box. It would be great if testing is very smooth and everything goes to plan but generally the early part of the season has the highest attrition rate and most variability - this would be a big opportunity if we had the chassis/PU fully sorted at the first race but given the mountain we need to climb and the very limited testing time it's not something we can rely upon. Though the regulations will be the same the tires could change a lot - I've no idea if that'll hurt or help us.

 

Realistically...

 

For next year's car to have a chance of winning races it'll have to be as good or better than the best of this year. That's a big jump to make and I think Fernando's suggestion of 2.5s being needed is about right (for the early part of the season and on race pace). I don't know if we can win the development race but I don't think we can count on significant changes in relative performance during the season.

 

Realistically...

 

Winter testing will only give us a vague idea of the competitive order. Things should firm a lot by the time FP3 is completed in Australia but it's probably best not to hold any assumptions from practice too tightly.

 

Realistically...

 

We can expect our drivers to deliver :up:



#2281 muramasa

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 14:26

 

At Motegi they finally removed the acrylic protection box from the display PU :lol:

 

hondapu0p.jpg

 

4548718196791_lj.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Which allowed me to take pics like this

hondapu6p.jpg

(I remember seeing some pro-shot pics taken at GP venues that captured turbine blades in the exhaust tail pipe like this. Seems genuine.

can see 2 wastegate exits, one at bottom from the right side bank, bit difficult to see but one on the upper part from the left side bank.

 

↓  http://www.racecar-e.../10/Uphonda.jpg 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

and these

 

hondapu4pp.jpg

 

 

 

hondapu5pp.jpg

 

 

hondapu3pp.jpg

(as you can see this pic is bit tilted to clockwise, so need to rotate like 30 degree to anti-clockwise direction to get correct vertical/horizontal posture)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hondapu0-3pp.jpg

 

hondapu7pp.jpg

 

hondapu1pp.jpg

 

just quickly done, hope correct

and will try to share other and prev pics asap

 

 

Maybe void of those ancillaries but inside the vee looked more "empty" or "un-stuffed" than I expected. 

Couldnt figure out MGU-H unit, but what should be the compressor unit is located quite deep inside, like somewhere just in front of center point of PU rather than at the edge of the front of PU.


Edited by muramasa, 10 December 2015 - 21:44.


#2282 smr

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 17:05

Made me laugh... not only have us Macca/ Button / Alonso fans had to endure a horrible season, Autosport are asking for money to read about how bad the season was with a plus feature too! Talk about rubbing it in haha.



#2283 Lotus53B

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 17:08

 

At Motegi they finally removed the acrylic protection box from the display PU :lol:

 

 

Which allowed me to take pics like this

Cracking shots, Grommit!

 

Really excellent stuff - thanks!



#2284 Pete_f1

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 17:19

muramasa,

Some very interesting and revealing pictures

#2285 Otaku

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 19:26

I found this video of Alonso in the MP4/6

 

 

A single car that sounds better than the whole 2015 field combined... awesome or sad, depending on how you look at it.



#2286 juaburg

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:54

Looks like the forum became a ghost town :(

#2287 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 00:35

Yup, Given the situation they faced it was always going to be very hard. Honda definitely underestimated the difficulty level... but then, I think pretty much everyone does too - fans, commentators etc. Not that anyone at Honda are happy or satisfied with what they delivered this year but they've also been pretty clear that doing it this way leaves them better prepared for 2016 than if they'd taken another year of development.

 

It's not been fun. It's not been pretty. But, 2016 should be completely different so long as the PU has no fundamental issues.

 

 

On a different note. Analysis of MP4-30 changes at Abu Dhabi:

http://en.f1i.com/ma...bu-dhabi.html/3

Autosport+ article convering the same thing:

http://plus.autospor...duct-explained/

Useful summary article for engines in 2016:

http://www.skysports...errari-for-2016

Thanks for info.Good stuff. :yawnface:



#2288 lixlax

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 10:31

Looking at these engine pics it feels like those are taken of a prototype rather than a complete design. Although we all seem to accept that Honda entered with too little development time on their shoulders that could explain it.



#2289 amardeep

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 21:51

Looking at these engine pics it feels like those are taken of a prototype rather than a complete design.

 

What do you see that suggests this ?



#2290 CPR

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 18:41

Interesting (more of a summary) article by Alan Henry, mostly about 2015 and the Honda engine:
http://www.mclaren.c...ing-gets-tough/

PS Looking at the pics of the Honda engine, I always thought it looked visibly well designed with lots of detail. The Renault PU looks rather basic in comparison. Of course, this is just surface detail and it's what's under the surface that's important.



#2291 turssi

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:55

Interesting (more of a summary) article by Alan Henry, mostly about 2015 and the Honda engine:
http://www.mclaren.c...ing-gets-tough/

 


Here's how Ron Dennis sees the first races (from his f1.com interview):

"In Australia we were a long way off the pace, but we managed to get one car to the finish. In Malaysia we made a significant step in terms of lap-time deficit to our principal rivals, but our reliability wasn’t there yet. In China we continued to make improvements in terms of pace, and for the first time we managed to get both our cars to the finish. In Bahrain we had reliability problems with Jenson’s [Button] car, but Fernando’s [Alonso] car ran like clockwork all weekend, made it through to Q2 in qualifying, and nearly scored a point in the race."

And on the future:

"As I’ve said, we have a mountain to climb, but climbing it we are and scale its summit we will. That I guarantee. I’ve also said I don’t want to put a timeframe on that prediction, because that would be foolhardy. I’m proud of those 20 world championships - they were won by hard graft, great teamwork and superbly innovative thinking - but I’ll be even prouder of the 21st, the 22nd, the 23rd, and so on."

Edited by turssi, 28 December 2015 - 12:56.