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A poll: Who else would be leading the WDC in a Mercedes?


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Poll: Who else would be winning in a Mercedes? (328 member(s) have cast votes)

Assuming that he had raced the entire season thus far as the designated number one driver at Mercedes, and that his teammate was not as quick, which of these drivers would be currently leading the championship? (select all that you think apply)

  1. Fernando Alonso (275 votes [9.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.83%

  2. Valtteri Bottas (194 votes [6.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.93%

  3. Jenson Button (217 votes [7.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.76%

  4. Marcus Ericsson (59 votes [2.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.11%

  5. Romain Grosjean (172 votes [6.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.15%

  6. Nico Hülkenberg (176 votes [6.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.29%

  7. Daniil Kvyat (143 votes [5.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.11%

  8. Pastor Maldonado (69 votes [2.47%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.47%

  9. Felipe Massa (151 votes [5.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.40%

  10. Roberto Merhi (57 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  11. Felipe Nasr (78 votes [2.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.79%

  12. Sergio Pérez (141 votes [5.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.04%

  13. Kimi Räikkönen (155 votes [5.54%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.54%

  14. Daniel Ricciardo (250 votes [8.93%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.93%

  15. Alexander Rossi (58 votes [2.07%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.07%

  16. Carlos Sainz, Jr. (109 votes [3.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.90%

  17. Will Stevens (56 votes [2.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  18. Max Verstappen (167 votes [5.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.97%

  19. Sebastian Vettel (271 votes [9.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.69%

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#1 rjtart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 04:46

Don't get me wrong. I rate Lewis Hamilton very highly, certainly in the top 3 of current drivers. There are not many who could get as much out of his car as Lewis. And Nico Rosberg is underestimated by too many. Not a tier one driver, perhaps, but near the top of tier 2. Having said that, however, the Mercedes F1 W06 is the most dominant machine I've seen in a good number of years. So much so, that even lesser drivers would probably take the championship with it. Not win as many races, but over the course of the year a number of other drivers could clinch the driver's title with the resources of Mercedes behind them.

Do you agree? Who else do you think could do the job?


Edited by rjtart, 13 October 2015 - 04:49.


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#2 Feint2Pass

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:02

With Lewis as a team mate? NO.

#3 BCM

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:02

Just about anyone apart from Maldonado and even he could probably win in the thing if he could avoid crashing for an entire race.



#4 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:08

Wait, so to put it another way, your question is which driver could win races in the fastest car if his teammate wasn't allowed to beat him and wasn't as quick anyway?

#5 teejay

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:16

Where the heck is the Nigel option?



#6 rjtart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:17

Wait, so to put it another way, your question is which driver could win races in the fastest car if his teammate wasn't allowed to beat him and wasn't as quick anyway?

Well, essentially. The point being, who could win races in that car providing there wasn't a faster challenger using the same equipment.



#7 teejay

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:17

And to answer the question - any driver, if he was made #1 in the team atm, would be leading the title. 

 

There is no one who is literally seconds slower these days. 

 

Other than maybe Will Stevens and Merhi?



#8 Tourgott

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:20

Even Maldonado obviously.



#9 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:28

Well, essentially. The point being, who could win races in that car providing there wasn't a faster challenger using the same equipment.

I get you probably want to avoid it becoming Lewis vs Other Driver, but I think those two false variables you've put in to head that off is just makes it too distorting to be meaningful. Teejay's answer is probably right, I guess. (Although who even knows what Stevens and Mehri might be capable of in better cars?)

#10 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:48

I wanted to start exactly this thread a couple weeks back (just with the question of who would win championships), but didnt done it because this would have ended very bad...

Question to the OP: Assume Stevens and myself are in the Mercedes (Im obviously slower than him): is the question than in the end if he would stil win races in the Mercedes assuming that Vettel is driving for Ferrari, Bottas for Williams, Ricciardo for Red Bull? And if we put Vettel virtually in the Mercedes, who will we put in the Ferrari? Or would we assume that the best drivers on the grid would drive the 2nd and 3rd best cars on the grid than?

If so than Im not 100 % convinced that everyone would win races in the Mercedes because an excellent driver like Rosberg finished half of his races beeing behind Vettel or just slightly ahead. I would guess that everyone would be capable to win at least sometimes a race (even Maldonado won 2012 in a Williams a race), but Im not sure if everyone would win races in this consistentency.

Edited by Marklar, 13 October 2015 - 05:50.


#11 rjtart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:50

I get you probably want to avoid it becoming Lewis vs Other Driver, but I think those two false variables you've put in to head that off is just makes it too distorting to be meaningful. Teejay's answer is probably right, I guess. (Although who even knows what Stevens and Mehri might be capable of in better cars?)

I don't know about that. I think it's really a fairly straightforward question, and I don't think the answer is that easy. We saw in Hungary that even Lewis can't always win in that car. And although all of the drivers mentioned are talented, most have considerably less talet than Hamilton. Vettel, after all, is now leading Roseburg. If Maldonado were the Mercedes number one, I think we'd see Sebastian in the top spot.



#12 rjtart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:57

I wanted to start exactly this thread a couple weeks back (just with the question of who would win championships), but didnt done it because this would have ended very bad...

Question to the OP: Assume Stevens and myself are in the Mercedes (Im obviously slower than him): is the question than in the end if he would stil win races in the Mercedes assuming that Vettel is driving for Ferrari, Bottas for Williams, Ricciardo for Red Bull? And if we put Vettel virtually in the Mercedes, who will we put in the Ferrari? Or would we assume that the best drivers on the grid would drive the 2nd and 3rd best cars on the grid than?

If so than Im not 100 % convinced that everyone would win races in the Mercedes because an excellent driver like Rosberg finished half of his races beeing behind Vettel or just slightly ahead. I would guess that everyone would be capable to win at least sometimes a race (even Maldonado won 2012 in a Williams a race), but Im not sure if everyone would win races in this consistentency.

Yes, all of the opponents stay as they are and (for the sake of argument) if you take Vettel and put him in the Mercedes, then he would be replaced at Ferrari by someone with comparable talents to Sebastian (and so on).

 

And with that, I'm off to bed.



#13 hollowstar

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:58

I think if we swapped Hamilton's seat with Fernando or Seb, they would also be leading the championship, but not by as large a margin. 

 

If we swapped them with Nico, they would still be behind Lewis, by a slightly thinner margin. 

 

I don't think anyone would beat Lewis at the moment, and just 2 or 3 drivers would possibly do better than Nico.



#14 SophieB

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 05:58

I don't know about that. I think it's really a fairly straightforward question, and I don't think the answer is that easy. We saw in Hungary that even Lewis can't always win in that car. And although all of the drivers mentioned are talented, most have considerably less talet than Hamilton. Vettel, after all, is now leading Roseburg. If Maldonado were the Mercedes number one, I think we'd see Sebastian in the top spot.

 

That's not really fair either. 2 DNFs will help with that sort of thing.



#15 kosmos

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:09

Every driver on the grid will win the title with this car, is far too superior to the next best car. With no challenge from your teammate, is not difficult to win when you car is 1 sec faster (or more) than the others.



#16 KingTiger

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:10

If Hamilton was in the Ferrari and some second rate driver was in the Merc, Lewis would still win a feW races but perhaps not enough for the title. Keep in mind Vettel was below .5s behind the Mercs on some tracks, and Hamilton is definitely faster than that compared to a Hulkenberg, or a Sainz, or a Kvyat, for example.

#17 JG

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:16

The whole field.



#18 Marklar

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:17

If we disqualify Hamilton from every race (which is basically the basis of this thread) than the championship would look like this...

Rosberg 282 (9 victories)
Vettel 279 (6 victories)

Nico Rosberg unarguably a good driver would win 9/15 races (even with 2 DNFs compare to 1 of Vettel) and would leading by a small margin the championship (would depend on the competivenes of his team mate though): I think thats the point were you can start to argue.

As I said: Vicories are well possible for everyone, but just the good drivers would win the championship.

Edited by Marklar, 13 October 2015 - 06:31.


#19 charly0418

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:23

Ricardo Teixeira

Segio Canamasas

Taki Inoue

Alex Yoong

Yuji Ide

Carmen Jorda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok I went a "bit" too far, sorry


Edited by charly0418, 13 October 2015 - 06:23.


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#20 OneAndOnly

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 06:38

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#21 GoldenColt

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:00

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#22 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:06

Even Maldonado obviously.

MAL would win in this years Ferrari



#23 Retrofly

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:08

All of them.

 

I think the actual gape between drivers on a lap by lap basis is very small. Currently the Mercedes is bigger than that gap. :up:



#24 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:13

Isn't the answer.....all of them?

 

Kinda pointless thread....



#25 xtremeclock

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:19

I think if we swapped Hamilton's seat with Fernando or Seb, they would also be leading the championship, but not by as large a margin. 

 

If we swapped them with Nico, they would still be behind Lewis, by a slightly thinner margin. 

 

I don't think anyone would beat Lewis at the moment, and just 2 or 3 drivers would possibly do better than Nico.

 

What is so special about this moment?, it's not like he has any competition, with all due respect his teammate is a Webber 2.0, everybody knows Rosberg is no match for SV/ALO/HAM

 

Vettel is totally shining this year, with that Mercedes he could obviously challenge and possibly beat Hamilton, hopefully next year we'll have some great battles if Ferrari continues to improve the car. 



#26 Heisenberg

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:23

LOL! Pointless thread. Pretty much everyone would, except for Maldonado maybe, who will crash! :p  But I suspect even Pastor would get to win at least 1 or 2 races in that car! Anyone can have a good start and lead the race from start to finish, it depends of could who their team mate is, but like I said, in a full season, pretty much all of those could win at least a couple of races!

Edited by SophieB, 13 October 2015 - 08:42.


#27 tifosii

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:29

 

I don't think anyone would beat Lewis at the moment, and just 2 or 3 drivers would possibly do better than Nico.

 

I don't agree with you. Hamliton got the best car.no other car can challenge Mercedes at the moment,what he need to do is beat Rosberg,and clearly Rosberg is not good enough,Hamliton beat him easily.

Rosberg is overrated,He never overtake Hamilton successfully when he is behind Hamliton,IIRC. Button overtake Hamliton many times when they are teammate. Button would make life harder than Rosberg did.

I think Seb and Fernando could challenge Hamliton if they have the car can challenge Mercedes



#28 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:32

Please keep to the thread topic, this is not a VS thread of any kind and discussions along these lines will result in the thread being closed.



#29 P123

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:35

Well, essentially. The point being, who could win races in that car providing there wasn't a faster challenger using the same equipment.


If there wasn't a faster challenger? Would that not be any and all of them then? Winning a race is a bit different to leading the WDC too. If, for example, you tick off Vettel in your poll as being in the car, then that would quickly cut down on who else you could tick off as being able to win a championship in it. Take Hamilton out, and Rosberg would be leading, but by a much narrower margin. So whoever you think is worse than Rosberg, no, they wouldn't win in it. But it then all becomes a bit of a anti-driver bitchfest.

#30 P123

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:35

Even Maldonado obviously.


Well obviously, given that he has already won a race in the Williams.

#31 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:38

I feel that this topic under estimates the value that both Lewis and Nico have provided - so have nulled my vote... :up:



#32 Lennat

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 08:46

Vettel in a Ferrari would still be better than Ericsson or Maldonado in the Merc. But someone line the Hulk, Grosjean, Perez... Any of those would still win.



#33 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:00

I almost missed the last part of the question.

"Assuming that he had raced the entire season thus far as the designated number one driver at Mercedes, and that his teammate was not as quick, which of these drivers would be currently leading the championship?"



#34 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:02

Assuming that he had raced the entire season thus far as the designated number one driver at Mercedes, and that his teammate was not as quick, which of these drivers would be currently leading the championship?

 

 

All of them? 



#35 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:05

I voted for all the former WDCs bar Raikkonen [I'm not certain he still has what it takes] .....plus Grosjean & Ricciardo... 



#36 rhukkas

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:06

Most drivers would. But teams hire drivers for the bad times not the good

#37 RedBaron

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:07

All my votes are based on there being no Mercedes team-mate.

 

Most drivers could win in a Mercedes, but for example if you had Vettel vs Raikkonen both in a Mercedes, there is nothing to suggest Raikkonen would win based on Vettel beating him almost every race in a Ferrari.

 

I voted for all of them except Maldonado, Kyvat (On second thoughts I should have voted for Daniil too), Stevens, Merhi, Rossi and Ericsson.  


Edited by RedBaron, 13 October 2015 - 09:10.


#38 Kristian

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:10

Merhi and Maldonado would win the title in that Mercedes, its just too dominant. And it is much easier to drive, thus drivers known for mistakes would make less, as well as having to push less and overtake less....

 

Even Toto Wolff said its 90% the car. 



#39 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:13

I really don't think the premise of this threads question "if the teammate was slow" is a realistic or reasonable one because a well-funded, top team such as Mercedes are always going to have 2 good drivers. So it's simply not worth considering who could win the championship in the Mercedes without assuming at least a Rosberg standard driver was in the other car - as that is the reality of contemporary F1. (It is also one of the most over-looked aspects of nearly every championship, that the winner always beat somebody in the same car, regardless of if the car had an advantage over the rest of the field).

 

As Marklar pointed out, if we disqualify Hamilton from every race Rosberg would be on 282 (9 victories) and Vettel 279 (6 victories).

 

Therefore, we're not looking at a long list of drivers, the facts above show that you'd need a driver as good as Rosberg to beat Vettel anyway. 

 

On present form, my list would therefore include Alonso, Button, Ricciardo and Vettel as probables, but I don't see any other driver on the grid who I could confidently say could do it. There is obviously some serious talent coming through in Grosjean, Bottas, Kvyatt , Perez and the kids at TR, but between them all they've only got a handful of podiums and no wins. I think Rosberg's experience would count hugely in his favour. 



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#40 screamingV16

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:15

I feel that this topic under estimates the value that both Lewis and Nico have provided - so have nulled my vote... :up:

 

Very much, this thread seems to be mainly set up to dismiss Hamilton and Rosberg performances (a few years ago it would have been Vettel).

 

Fair enough a lot of the grid could win a race or two in the Mercedes, but I reckon the majority would struggle to put together enough consistent performances over the season to lead or win the championship (even if they outperformed their team mate) over Vettel in the Ferrari. The exceptions would be Vettel, Alonso, Button, Riciardo and of course Vettel.

 

People just need to look at Williams in 95 to see how having the dominant car doesn’t guarantee you championships (Coulthard could only manage one win in 17 races!) and I’m pretty certain that if Schumacher had been in the 97 Williams or 99 McLaren he would have wrapped up far dominant championships before the seasons last race.



#41 Rinehart

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:19

Assuming that he had raced the entire season thus far as the designated number one driver at Mercedes, and that his teammate was not as quick, which of these drivers would be currently leading the championship?

 

 

All of them? 

 

No way. Marklars stat shows that Rosberg would only be 3 points ahead of Vettel without Hamilton in the way. Clearly not all the drivers on the grid are better than Britney. Vettel has amassed a ton of points this season, you'd still have to outscore him. It's easy to overlook how good the Merc is and dismiss the drivers as having no real effect but that is evidently not the case. There have been some fine margins in qualifying and some superb performances in the races.

 

I reckon if Mercedes had say the Williams driver line up, neither would be leading the championship right now. 



#42 Kristian

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:23

 

 

People just need to look at Williams in 95 to see how having the dominant car doesn’t guarantee you championships (Coulthard could only manage one win in 17 races!) and I’m pretty certain that if Schumacher had been in the 97 Williams or 99 McLaren he would have wrapped up far dominant championships before the seasons last race.

 

Reliability was a big issue in the 90s though - in 1995 Coulthard finished 8 races and was on the podium for 7 of them (4th place was his other result). In 1999 it was Ferrari's reliability vs McLaren's speed - Schumacher would not have made a different with mechanical failures (though it could be argued he would have won Imola and Monza in that car, but then again he did drop it in Montreal so you'd have to assume he would have lost points for McLaren too through errors....)

 

Now the cars only DNF 1-2 times a season, and the track designs mean its very rare to retire through a simple error and getting stuck in the gravel, so I do think that pretty much any driver with a couple of F1 seasons' experience behind them could put together a championship run in the Mercedes. Against Vettel.... would be tight, but he'd not have it easy. 


Edited by Kristian, 13 October 2015 - 09:24.


#43 screamingV16

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:26

Merhi and Maldonado would win the title in that Mercedes, its just too dominant. And it is much easier to drive, thus drivers known for mistakes would make less, as well as having to push less and overtake less....

 

Even Toto Wolff said its 90% the car. 

 

Error prone drivers tend to make errors whether their car is fast or slow, you just need to look at the history of the F1 championship to understand that, in fact you only need to go back to 2012 to see how many times Maldonado crashed out in a decent podium capable car to see that.

 

Mehri and Maldonado would unlikely be leading the championship in a Mercedes over Vettel in the Ferrari. Maldonado would definitely have lost points crashing out of the lead, colliding with back markers etc, that’s providing he hadn’t already ruined his race by screwing up qualifying.



#44 Kev00

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:27

As rosberg and vettel are so close this year it is basically a 'rosberg vs everyone else' thread. Alonso, button, ricciardo and vettel for me are better. Hulk, bottas, grosjean, raikkonen and maybe verspappen would be close.

#45 kosmos

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:38


Mehri and Maldonado would unlikely be leading the championship in a Mercedes over Vettel in the Ferrari.

 

 

Mehri is a good driver and Maldonado will be less erratic with a great car.



#46 Kristian

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:40

This is where I wish Max's crazy driver swapping idea was put into place, so we could test it out  :drunk:



#47 Kristian

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:42

Error prone drivers tend to make errors whether their car is fast or slow, you just need to look at the history of the F1 championship to understand that, in fact you only need to go back to 2012 to see how many times Maldonado crashed out in a decent podium capable car to see that.

 

Mehri and Maldonado would unlikely be leading the championship in a Mercedes over Vettel in the Ferrari. Maldonado would definitely have lost points crashing out of the lead, colliding with back markers etc, that’s providing he hadn’t already ruined his race by screwing up qualifying.

 

Hamilton made tons of errors when in a below-par McLaren, and even this year the one race where he was put into the pack he hit a few people. Being in the midfield naturally means you are involved in more incidents, and being in harder to drive cars exacerbates that too. 

 

I like to laugh at Maldonado, but in a top car he would not be involved in so many incidents, that is for sure. 



#48 screamingV16

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:49

Reliability was a big issue in the 90s though - in 1995 Coulthard finished 8 races and was on the podium for 7 of them (4th place was his other result). In 1999 it was Ferrari's reliability vs McLaren's speed - Schumacher would not have made a different with mechanical failures (though it could be argued he would have won Imola and Monza in that car, but then again he did drop it in Montreal so you'd have to assume he would have lost points for McLaren too through errors....)

 

Now the cars only DNF 1-2 times a season, and the track designs mean its very rare to retire through a simple error and getting stuck in the gravel, so I do think that pretty much any driver with a couple of F1 seasons' experience behind them could put together a championship run in the Mercedes. Against Vettel.... would be tight, but he'd not have it easy. 

 

Coulthard retired from the lead due to reliability 3 times in 95 (one of those times he was lucky to restart having spun off on the warm up lap), only once did Schumacher inherit the victory. The Williams was the fastest car in 95 (eleven poles), yet even when they had no reliability problems Coulthard and Hill were often beaten in the race by Schumacher



#49 Jon83

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 09:49

I think Vettel and Alonso would probably be closer to Hamilton but in this form, I couldn't see them beating him over the course of a season.

 

Which is why I feel a bit for Nico because for years, he did such a great job in a bang average Mercedes and when they finally do produce a winning car, he is up against a driver who has been in incredible form on such a consistent basis.



#50 Zava

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 10:02

I think Vettel and Alonso would probably be closer to Hamilton but in this form, I couldn't see them beating him over the course of a season.

 

Which is why I feel a bit for Nico because for years, he did such a great job in a bang average Mercedes and when they finally do produce a winning car, he is up against a driver who has been in incredible form on such a consistent basis.

but that's not the question.

 

put it this way: "driver X" and you are the 2 drivers of mercedes, would "driver X" win the championship? 

 

and I don't find the Rosberg vs Vettel without Hamilton's results stat that fair in this case. I'd bet Rosberg's year would be vastly different if he wasn't living it in the shadow of Hamilton, but as the better driver in his team.