247 replies to this topic

[Paco]

I miss the era when teams would launch an in season b spec spec car and find 0.5, 1s.. I miss innovations coming during the season like those crazy x-wings lol, double diffusers, BMW kicking 1000hp engines cranking out more hp very race, innovations like hand operated air holes confusing what is going on in the car.. Damon Hill kicking everyone's arse in an Arrows due to rubber, Rainmaster schumi destroying the field on wets (irregardless if he some sort of tc or not).. 3 equal timed qualifying laps.. Montoya feuds, villeneuve schumi hatred etc.

It's all too political
It's all too commercial where drivers can't be themselves and just corporate shills
Rule book way way way to tight, heaven forbid you get anything wrong in design in sept.. You never going to fix it during the season these days
More then ever before, it's an engine formula. Period. A driver can not do anything no matter how good he is.

It really does look hopeless due to technology advancements to really fix it without dumbing down the engines 1st and formemost and a total rethink do the flat floor messy wake.

[SenorSjon]

I don't think there's a point to a rival series, or that it would even be viable.

 

Turn on MotorsTV for a laugh, and marvel at the utter lack of spectators in pretty much every series broadcast there.

 

You can always get a couple of people to watch, but that's no way to run an expensive series that could compete with F1.

 

Even A1 Grand Prix, which used a chassis based on the Ferrari F2004 (!) and had a rather powerful V8 engine was in the end a hopeless endeavour.

 

A1GP was as spec as they come. Superleague Formula had V12's. Too bad both series had to use the nations/soccer themes and did not allow for other chassis. Even F3 is more open than most racing classes.

 

Nonsense.
How come it survived after the American and Aussie domination era then?

 

Rossi happened. Another character was Sideshow Bob aka Simoncelli, but he died unfortunately. Me and most of my friends have zero interest in Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Marquez, espcially after the end of last season and the Spanish Inquisition vs. Rossi.

[THEWALL]

What a weird thread, such a series already exists. It's called Indy! Mostly spec cars, low cost of running a season, great drivers from a wide array of countries on varying types of courses and has the Indy500.. So why isn't more popular, because it's a spec series!

Even nascar isn't pulling In the numbers it once did.

So why do people asking for something different when it's already out there.

People keep saying we need this and that and by most accounts those changes would make f1 into indycar.. So just watch it.

F1 needs to sort out a way of bringing down the tech and costs of engines, sort out the flat floor issue causing too much wake and stop with contrived gimmicks and just go back to 12 lap qualifying go when you want. So what if it's a bit slow for the 1st 20mins, it the building up that the key.. And if you wait and you get stuck I traffic, so what.. It's your fault for getting yourself into that position. We need to stop coddling he drivers and make them men again and blame for the crap they get themselves into.. Vs saying aaaaaa shuck your flying lap got held up by x drover with only 30s to go.. When you had an hour to set it!

Ovals, ugly cars, push to pass. The concept of a spec series I don't mind, on the contrary I'd embrace it, but it would probably be difficult to sell. In any case, good racing can be achieved with good rules and enforcement, but excellent marketing is needed for the series to be sustainable. People must just be willing to do it.

[KarlCson]

For me, the pinnacle of motorsport is the series which have the best riders. The cars can be made faster or slower with just a stroke of a pen, but the drivers,they are what they are.

Spot on, it really doesn´t have to be made more complicated than that!

[THEWALL]

Spot on, it really doesn´t have to be made more complicated than that!

As Indy, FE and others have proved, there are plenty of good drivers. Montoya, for example, is probably better than at least 25% of the F1 field and there are probably easily 10-20 young drivers in feeder series and others that would be more than enough material to create a credible rival to F1 in terms of driver quality; convince three unhappy drivers from F1 to switch and 2 of the big manufacturers that aren't already in F1, and you complete it...However, the window is now until probably 2017 depending on how badly they mess up the new regs...

Edited by THEWALL, 25 March 2016 - 16:53.

[PayasYouRace]

Vergne

di Resta

Kobayashi

Beumi

Alguersuari

Vandoorne

Sirotkin

Evans

Matushita

Pic

Ocon

Gasly

Kovalainen

Colletti

Bourdais

Maldonado

Rossi

Chilton

Sutil

B Senna

N Prost

...

 

Not exactly a list of superstars, is it? The biggest names there are Prost, Senna and Rossi, but it's the wrong Prost, Senna and Rossi. The rest are F1 rejects and guys you'd only know of if you are a hardcore fan and follow junior formulae.

[August]

Ovals, ugly cars, push to pass. The concept of a spec series I don't mind, on the contrary I'd embrace it, but it would probably be difficult to sell. In any case, good racing can be achieved with good rules and enforcement, but excellent marketing is needed for the series to be sustainable. People must just be willing to do it.

Yeah, the current Indy cars are ugly, even more than F1 since 2009. Yeah, push-to-pass sucks but it's still better regulated than F1's DRS.

And oval racing, I love it. Nice to see short, medium, and long ovals alongside road and street courses. Plus F1 has nothing like the Indy 500.

[BRK]

I feel very strongly that there should only be one apex series at the top of the food chain. As much as F1's current state saddens me, I don't think any rival series could ever hope to match F1. Strongly entrenched, history behind it, etc. I'm also kinda sentimental about this sport. 

[karl100589]

Give it a few years and we might have one:

Well at least I hope so.

[Kev00]

Like he said "Not enough credible drivers".

How about:
Lotterer
Duval
Vandoorne
Frinjs
Da Costa
Di Resta
Di Grassi
Vergne
Buemi
Sutil
Rossi
Glock
Kobayashi
Nakajima
Wickens
Ocon
Rowland
Evans
Sirotkin
Jani
Heidfeld
D'Ambrosio
Bird
Piquet jr

Would love to see all those guys on the same grid. Even if they are all in spec cars. All very good drivers. Not all household names but which non f1 driver is. There is plenty of talent out there.

[readonly]

Give it a few years and we might have one:

Well at least I hope so.

The fia will never allow them. See how they have started to limit their plans of freeing development. The only way anyone can compete against f1 is being out of the fia controls.

[V8 Fireworks]

I feel very strongly that there should only be one apex series at the top of the food chain. As much as F1's current state saddens me, I don't think any rival series could ever hope to match F1. Strongly entrenched, history behind it, etc. I'm also kinda sentimental about this sport. 

 

Of course, but I would not care as long as they raced in Adelaide and had V10 engines!!    The drivers wouldn't be F1-calibre, but they wouldn't be amateurs like BOSS GP either, they would still be fast, consistent professional drivers.  It doesn't bother Indycar fans that Alonso and Hamilton don't race in Indycar. The drivers would still be as good as those in the bottom half of the F1 field.

[V8 Fireworks]

You are overestimating the demand for, or interest in, a niche sporting sector both in terms of viewers and sponsors.

 

WTCC travels around the world at great expense with not many fans.  It's possible.  

 

"Build it and they would come", since F1 will dump Monza (and Magny Cours and others, they are all available) so you would refuse to watch the GP-X series Monza Grand Prix out of sheer principle? Really? 

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

1. An annual cost cap of $150 million covering everything except driver salaries, tires and engines.

 

It should be less than that, a budget of $10 million per team per car maximum (not enforced in the rules, it should just be what it costs since it's a spec series with Cosworth engine, control chassis, control Xtrac gearbox etc).  That would be very affordable, relatively speaking.  Most of the drivers in the "GP-X" would NOT be paid large salaries.

 

Maybe certain "marque" drivers could be hired by the series promoter and placed at teams -- drivers disillusioned with F1 like Raikkonen and Button.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 March 2016 - 00:16.

[THEWALL]

Yeah, the current Indy cars are ugly, even more than F1 since 2009. Yeah, push-to-pass sucks but it's still better regulated than F1's DRS.

And oval racing, I love it. Nice to see short, medium, and long ovals alongside road and street courses. Plus F1 has nothing like the Indy 500.

I might give it another try. Having said that. Ovals. No. Thanks. 

[THEWALL]

or watch Rally-X, now with Loeb...

[superden]

WTCC travels around the world at great expense with not many fans. It's possible.

"Build it and they would come", since F1 will dump Monza (and Magny Cours and others, they are all available) so you would refuse to watch the GP-X series Monza Grand Prix out of sheer principle? Really?

Where did I write that? I think you have my comment confused with someone else's, or you just forgot what point you were trying to argue.

[noikeee]

What a weird thread, such a series already exists. It's called Indy! Mostly spec cars, low cost of running a season, great drivers from a wide array of countries on varying types of courses and has the Indy500.. So why isn't more popular, because it's a spec series!

 

No, it's not more popular because it's based almost exclusively in the US, in non-European friendly timeslots, buried in weird or less watched TV channels, not marketed here in Europe, with considerably slower cars round a race course than F1, with race drivers whose names don't mean much to the common man in Europe, with half the season raced on ovals which doesn't interest the common European man, with constant safety cars that make it seem like a lottery, and with wacky looking cars. And it's not popular in the US itself, Canada and Latin America because it let itself almost die and be replaced by NASCAR, way before the current trend started of motorsports falling apart in popularity everywhere anyway.

 

The fact it's a spec car is a minor factor compared to all that.

 

Mind you Indycar still has its space and I'm sure it's tons of fun to watch (although I never managed to get 100% into it myself), I'm just making an argument as to why the fact it's spec car it's not that important regarding popularity.

[V8 Fireworks]

Where did I write that? I think you have my comment confused with someone else's, or you just forgot what point you were trying to argue.

 

WTCC has very little interest but it travels around the world anyway.  That's my point.    Hypothetical GP-X will be a better product than that by many levels, sorry the Monza parts addresses the credibility / won't attract any fans notion.  

[HeadFirst]

How about:
Lotterer
Duval
Vandoorne
Frinjs
Da Costa
Di Resta
Di Grassi
Vergne
Buemi
Sutil
Rossi
Glock
Kobayashi
Nakajima
Wickens
Ocon
Rowland
Evans
Sirotkin
Jani
Heidfeld
D'Ambrosio
Bird
Piquet jr

Would love to see all those guys on the same grid. Even if they are all in spec cars. All very good drivers. Not all household names but which non f1 driver is. There is plenty of talent out there.

 

But Kevin, the thread is about creating a series to rival F1. It is not about whether there are talented drivers out there, of that there is no doubt. So choose the 20 from your list you would put in your spec cars and we'll see how it rivals F1.

[Marklar]

For some reasons IndyCar has even in the USA lower TV ratings than F1...

[Nonesuch]

A1GP was as spec as they come.

 

True enough, but if a new series expects new entries to participate in a wide-ranging development race it might as well call it quits now.

 

Especially if it wants those entries to be somewhat credible brands/teams/manufacturers; a lot of whom are already participating in high-level racing to some degree.

Edited by Nonesuch, 26 March 2016 - 16:53.

[KingTiger]

Even though F1 management is completely incompetent it will not work, the only thing that a F1 competitor would do is doom top level open wheel racing. There is not enough money or viewers for multiple series.

[JHSingo]

Give it a few years and we might have one:

 

Well at least I hope so.

 

To be honest, Formula E has just as many concerns about its future as F1 does currently. While manufacturers entering now is all well and good, when Formula E eventually opens up development to more areas of the cars, and budgets inevitably rise, it becomes a worry.

 

Plus, while we're on the subject of pay walls etc - well, if rumours are to be believed, Formula E may not be on ITV for much longer, and it could end up on BT. And the viewing figures for this season (while it has been on freeview, remember) haven't been very good.

All in all, I'm not sure if I'd bet very much on Formula E still existing by 2019 either!

Edited by JHSingo, 26 March 2016 - 18:24.

[myattitude]

The FOTA series? The sport that was going to be governed by the manufacturers working in unison rather than by Max? And how did that work out for F1?

And competition is great? Yeah, the IRL/CART split was just brilliant for open wheel racing in the States.

What serious competition brings to a fringe sport like motor racing is a lot of money being thrown around by all sides to poach talent until everyone is out of business and one party is left with a monopoly that's nowhere near as profitable or successful as when you started because the fans lost interest years ago.

Amazing you'd even mention WCW. Look at what happened there; Ted Turner threw money and creative control at a load of WWF stars who then proceeded to run the company into the ground leading to Nitro being cancelled by TNT and WWF buying the remains for a pittance.

Bad management killed WCW, not competition. WWF, who was well managed, grew to record levels as a direct result of the head-head rivalry, and has shrunk again since the competition was bought out. Think about it, Hamilton shows up on "GP-X" and proceeds to cut a promo on F1 and the FIA, now F1 must respond with a bombshell of their own: V-12 engines. Can you say ratings?

[Kev00]

But Kevin, the thread is about creating a series to rival F1. It is not about whether there are talented drivers out there, of that there is no doubt. So choose the 20 from your list you would put in your spec cars and we'll see how it rivals F1.

Well if you wanted to rival f1 from day one then you would have to try and get some current f1 drivers. If you could tempt two or three of Hulkenberg, Grosjean, Raikkonen, Button, Alonso to the series alongside the best guys from that list then you would have a very competative and credible series. If the cars were as fast or faster than current f1 cars I think a few drivers would be tempted. But of course this is just fantasy because it will never happen, though like I said before I would like to see a euro based single seater series.

[tifosiMac]

The state F1 is in I don't think a strong alternative would be hard to achieve.

 

We are getting to a point where more people in the UK are tuning in to a repeat of the Sweeney at 6am on ITV4 than will be watching F1 lol. A good alternative that is on FTA would be most welcome!   

[PlatenGlass]

I remain unconvinced spec cars were/are the problem for a breakaway series. It doesn't take a genius to design a spec car that's quicker than a current F1 and considerably cheaper round a racetrack than a current F1. Most of the audience won't be able to tell the difference. In fact I think this will be happening sooner or later whether F1 survives or something comes up to take its place. I think it won't take 20 years until F1 or its substitute it's largely spec, you can quote me on that and throw eggs in my face in 2036 if it doesn't happen.

When people raise the topic of a spec series, the reply is often something along the lines of "But there are already plenty of spec series. Why not watch one of them?" But that misses the point completely. As has been said in this thread, the main thing that makes F1 the "pinnacle" is that it's perceived as having the best drivers. Some random spec series doesn't have the best drivers. The question is whether having the best drivers in a spec series or in a series like F1 is better. Having a spec series would make it more of a sport where the actual sportsman are competing against each other as opposed to an engineering competition. But it's just a case of which you'd prefer.

I've always been of the view that if you require different cars to make it interesting, you probably don't think racing itself is fundamentally interesting enough.

[myattitude]

Motorsport needs a Mister McMahon at the helm.

Complete with power-walk, especially when he tries to screw Hamilton out of the title.

[Eff One 2002]

I'd feel great about it. A new, open cockpit, open wheel, single-seater series with different engine capacities and configurations would be awesome, with V8s, V10s and V12s. LOUD engines, BIG, WIDE tyres, CHALLENGING circuits with corners that separate the men from the boys. Corners that actually punish a driver when a mistake is made, not just give them 100 metres of run-off. A series that, whilst safe is not overly-obsessed with safety to the point that it's detrimental and detracting from it like F1 has become. Basically a series that most of us wish F1 should be. 

[HeadFirst]

Well if you wanted to rival f1 from day one then you would have to try and get some current f1 drivers. If you could tempt two or three of Hulkenberg, Grosjean, Raikkonen, Button, Alonso to the series alongside the best guys from that list then you would have a very competative and credible series. If the cars were as fast or faster than current f1 cars I think a few drivers would be tempted. But of course this is just fantasy because it will never happen, though like I said before I would like to see a euro based single seater series.

 

And that is the catch .... getting the drivers. When the WHA challenged the NHL (hockey in olden times), they did it by tempting the established stars with boatloads of money, and signing a few of the top prospects. If a new OW series were to rival F1 (the premise of this thread), I think the way to do it would be to go after the drivers. For me the critical signings would be Vettel and/or Hamilton, and Verstappen. You could fill out the grid with some vets (like Button), and drivers from your list. You would then have something to build on.

[Wuzak]

It should be less than that, a budget of $10 million per team per car maximum (not enforced in the rules, it should just be what it costs since it's a spec series with Cosworth engine, control chassis, control Xtrac gearbox etc).  That would be very affordable, relatively speaking.  Most of the drivers in the "GP-X" would NOT be paid large salaries.

 

Maybe certain "marque" drivers could be hired by the series promoter and placed at teams -- drivers disillusioned with F1 like Raikkonen and Button.

 

I think you underestimate the cost of the supply of a Cosworth V10 engine, including tech rep to oversee its use.

 

And transport costs (unless your equivalent of FOM covers that).

 

Haas have said that their F1 budget is similar to their NASCAR budget. While NASCAR has more races and he has a 4 car team, they also can truck their cars to every race, unlike F1 where the cars have to be flown. 

 

http://autoweek.com/...-similar-nascar

[billm99uk]

I'd feel great about it. A new, open cockpit, open wheel, single-seater series with different engine capacities and configurations would be awesome, with V8s, V10s and V12s. LOUD engines, BIG, WIDE tyres, CHALLENGING circuits with corners that separate the men from the boys. Corners that actually punish a driver when a mistake is made, not just give them 100 metres of run-off. A series that, whilst safe is not overly-obsessed with safety to the point that it's detrimental and detracting from it like F1 has become. Basically a series that most of us wish F1 should be. 

 

And as soon as the first guy gets killed what do you think its going to happen?

[Vettelari]

Instead of starting a new series from scratch, the best option would be to expand on the WEC in a way to directly compete with F1, in my opinion.

For instance, opening up the regulations to make the cars a few seconds faster than F1 and holding 8-10 LMP1 only "sprint races". Instead of 6, 12, and 24 hour races, reduce these standalone races to 2-3 hours featuring LMP1 cars. Entice a couple more manufacturers to join and suddenly they are a serious threat.

The structure is already in place. Audi, Toyota, and Porsche are a great start to build upon. I think this would be a more realistic option in today's financial environment than starting a series from scratch.

I know it is a far-fetched idea that would probably never happen, but I really think it could be a success due to avoiding various start up fees and not having to market something brand new.

Edited by Vettelari, 26 March 2016 - 23:42.

[Eff One 2002]

And as soon as the first guy gets killed what do you think its going to happen?

You would do what should be done in F1. You'd be regretful about the situation, but come to the conclusion that said driver chose motor racing as a career on the understanding that death may choose them, appreciate the fact that in this day and age that deaths are extremely rare in motorsport, leave things be, and move on.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

And transport costs

 

Worldwide transport costs are deemed acceptable for WTCC, GT3, TCR etc.  If planned properly the costs are reasonable.

 

Spares will be carried centrally (since all the cars are identical) which would reduce costs greatly, plus there is NO development as such... no rushing parts around the world hours before they are required.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 March 2016 - 06:14.

[V8 Fireworks]

Entice a couple more manufacturers to join and suddenly they are a serious threat.

 

Manufacturers are overrated.

 

Of course if there were WEC race(s) in Australia they would be worth watching, but there aren't any even though Eastern Creek and/or Surfers Paradise street circuit would be entirely suitable.

 

Where are these races, where is the will for a 15 to 20 round season for WEC, to visit and reach more people and places!? 

[LuckyStrike1]

I don't see much future for Motorsport in general, only as a small and continuously diminishing niche sport / spectacle. F1 is definitely heading that way.

[Mat13]

Instead of starting a new series from scratch, the best option would be to expand on the WEC in a way to directly compete with F1, in my opinion.

For instance, opening up the regulations to make the cars a few seconds faster than F1 and holding 8-10 LMP1 only "sprint races". Instead of 6, 12, and 24 hour races, reduce these standalone races to 2-3 hours featuring LMP1 cars. Entice a couple more manufacturers to join and suddenly they are a serious threat.

The structure is already in place. Audi, Toyota, and Porsche are a great start to build upon. I think this would be a more realistic option in today's financial environment than starting a series from scratch.

I know it is a far-fetched idea that would probably never happen, but I really think it could be a success due to avoiding various start up fees and not having to market something brand new.

Agreed. WEC has become my go-to series when F1 is not on, and now I won't be able to watch F1 in a few years, WEC will be my primary series from then on, quite possibly before.

It's just a shame the FIA will never allow WEC to become as popular.

[August]

Instead of starting a new series from scratch, the best option would be to expand on the WEC in a way to directly compete with F1, in my opinion.

For instance, opening up the regulations to make the cars a few seconds faster than F1 and holding 8-10 LMP1 only "sprint races". Instead of 6, 12, and 24 hour races, reduce these standalone races to 2-3 hours featuring LMP1 cars. Entice a couple more manufacturers to join and suddenly they are a serious threat.

The structure is already in place. Audi, Toyota, and Porsche are a great start to build upon. I think this would be a more realistic option in today's financial environment than starting a series from scratch.

I know it is a far-fetched idea that would probably never happen, but I really think it could be a success due to avoiding various start up fees and not having to market something brand new.

 

Who would watch a nine-car grid? Even though the factory LMP1s have a total of 18 drivers plus nine in the privateer LMP1s, I strongly doubt each team would triple the number of their chassis.

[Risil]

Manufacturers are overrated.

 

Of course if there were WEC race(s) in Australia they would be worth watching, but there aren't any even though Eastern Creek and/or Surfers Paradise street circuit would be entirely suitable.

 

Where are these races, where is the will for a 15 to 20 round season for WEC, to visit and reach more people and places!? 

 

I couldn't possibly watch 15 to 20 endurance races in a year. Don't know if the teams could compete in that many either.

[KingTiger]

Problem with WEC is that the LMP1 cars are incredibly ugly, that the races are pointlessly long, and that there are a bunch of filler classes that are only there to pad the numbers. Another issue is that it's run by FIA so they race on the same sterilized Tilkedroms as F1. It does not hold a handle to the old WSC, IMSA GT, or even ALMS at it's best in the mid to late 2000s.

[Nathan]

The WEC wagon hoppers amuse me.  F1 cars are slow, ugly, don't sound good, and now it is going to cost money to watch on TV.  On the other end, WEC cars are ugly, slower, don't sound good, and requires a special TV subscription package to watch.  I see the benefits...

 

 

Agreed. WEC has become my go-to series when F1 is not on, and now I won't be able to watch F1 in a few years, WEC will be my primary series from then on, quite possibly before.

 

 I will assume you can't watch F1 in a few years because it will no longer be free, yet you move interest to WEC, which correct me if I'm wrong, requires those in the UK to pay a fee in order to get EuroSport or Motor TV.

[Mat13]

The WEC wagon hoppers amuse me. F1 cars are slow, ugly, don't sound good, and now it is going to cost money to watch on TV. On the other end, WEC cars are ugly, slower, don't sound good, and requires a special TV subscription package to watch. I see the benefits...


I will assume you can't watch F1 in a few years because it will no longer be free, yet you move interest to WEC, which correct me if I'm wrong, requires those in the UK to pay a fee in order to get EuroSport or Motor TV.

I already have a base Sky subscription, and at £6 a month I can justify that, considering I watch much more than WEC. What I can't justify is an extra £24 (plus more on top if I want HD) for one channel, bearing in mind I don't watch football.

Your points about WEC are mostly opinion- I happen to think they look and sound lovely, and actually considering you get the channel it is on with 150-odd others, perfectly reasonable.

'Wagon-hoppers'- rather condescending don't you think?

[Rob29]

I already have a base Sky subscription, and at £6 a month I can justify that, considering I watch much more than WEC. What I can't justify is an extra £24 (plus more on top if I want HD) for one channel, bearing in mind I don't watch football.

Your points about WEC are mostly opinion- I happen to think they look and sound lovely, and actually considering you get the channel it is on with 150-odd others, perfectly reasonable.

'Wagon-hoppers'- rather condescending don't you think?

Maybe I should ask Sky for a reduction? Already paying them £65 per month-don't have HD they wanted extra plus multi room service.Still trying to find out how to watch japaneese Super formula,NASCAR trucks,ARCA

[jaark]

I will assume you can't watch F1 in a few years because it will no longer be free, yet you move interest to WEC, which correct me if I'm wrong, requires those in the UK to pay a fee in order to get EuroSport or Motor TV.

Motors TV is free now. It's channel 240 in the Freeview HD EPG. I think that the video is actually streamed across the Internet as opposed to broadcast (so you need a relatively recent TV)

[Mat13]

Maybe I should ask Sky for a reduction? Already paying them £65 per month-don't have HD they wanted extra plus multi room service.Still trying to find out how to watch japaneese Super formula,NASCAR trucks,ARCA

If you've been with them a few years, phone them and say you're leaving. I left once after four years, they accepted but then phoned me a month later, offering me what was then the Family/ Discovery packs, Sky Sports (including F1) and the HD pack for £16 a month. That ran out after a year, so I went to the new basics package for £21 a month. Decided a few months ago we'd change to Amazon Prime, phoned them to leave and they dropped my bill to £6.

It's good, but slightly galling that they can charge that little and presumably still make a profit.

[stewie]

with half the season raced on ovals which doesn't interest the common European man

Not even a third of the season is on ovals - 5 out of 16 rounds.