Carry on as you were.
Previous thread here: http://forums.autosp...2015-ii/page-80
Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:07
Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:11
Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:20
New thread is up, so I can finally post this one
In the following the lap times compared when they had same tyres, similar tyre age and no traffic. By the way the restart/start laps are NOT included
PACE DIF ADV COMPARABLE LAPS AUS - MAL +0.897 VET 33 CHI -0.205 RAI 21 BAH -0.077 RAI 3 (Note on that: Kimi was faster on primes than Vettel on options which isnt recorded here) ESP +0.507 VET 10 MON +0.523 VET 11 CAN - AUT - GBR +0.149 VET 13 HUN +0.183 VET 32 BEL +0.609 VET 2 ITA +0.405 VET 31 SIN +0.614 VET 27 JPN -0.023 RAI 21 RUS +0.199 VET 6 AVG +0.315 MED +0.302 adjusted average per lap: +0.356
Edited by Marklar, 16 October 2015 - 14:22.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 13:46
Which laps did you count for Russia?
How is "no traffic" defined? (What gap?)
What are "similar" tyre ages?
(For Bahrain, did you check whether other drivers were also faster on primes?)
Edited by apoka, 16 October 2015 - 13:49.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 13:58
Which laps did you count for Russia?
How is "no traffic" defined? (What gap?)
What are "similar" tyre ages?
(For Bahrain, did you check whether other drivers were also faster on primes?)
Traffic <= 2 sec (dirty air effect and on the other side slipstream effect)
Similar tyre age = not more than 3-4 laps (usually it was anyway just one)
Regarding Russia I have to look it up, but I think 6 laps were when Kimi was behind Vettel (in this phase Vettel was faster) and the others towards the race end after Ricciardos retirement when Kimi had a few laps clean air (probably Vettel was not pushing anymore). These races with just a few lapsare anyway not really meaningfull.
Regarding Bahrain I can look it up, but I didnt counted that anyway.
Edit: I think Vettel was really not pushing anymore. It were these two laps were he prepered his tyres for his fastest lap attemp Didnt noticed that, Im going to correct that
Regarding Bahrain now I've looked up if other teams had also split their strategy like Ferrari and just Lotus did that. On the first stint the option was clearly faster than prime. In the third stint Grosjean got options and Maldonado primes but 8 laps later than Grosjean (Raikkonen was 4) the delta between Grosjean and Maldonado was 0.365 s/lap (8 laps age difference), the delta between Kimi/Vettel was 0.508 s/lap (4 laps age difference). Maldonados strategy was also different though (3 stops), so its hardly compareable.
Edited by Marklar, 16 October 2015 - 14:41.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 15:07
So both drivers had their fastest laps within the same 4 laps (with Vettel even having the significantly older tires) and Vettel got the fastest laps that day. And Kimi is for some reason faster.
You just made another worthless table.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 15:13
So both drivers had their fastest laps within the same 4 laps (with Vettel even having the significantly older tires) and Vettel got the fastest laps that day. And Kimi is for some reason faster.
You just made another worthless table.
What are you talking about? About Russia? Its the other way around as you can see
Which signifantly older tyres by the way? Vettel pitted one lap earlier...
Edited by Marklar, 16 October 2015 - 15:16.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 15:25
So both drivers had their fastest laps within the same 4 laps (with Vettel even having the significantly older tires) and Vettel got the fastest laps that day. And Kimi is for some reason faster.
You just made another worthless table.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 16:03
Marklar, did you include car damage in this as well? Didn't Kimi drive Malaysia or somewhere with a damaged car and Vettel in Bahrain?
Posted 16 October 2015 - 16:16
Marklar, did you include car damage in this as well? Didn't Kimi drive Malaysia or somewhere with a damaged car and Vettel in Bahrain?
Nope, I'm not aware of these things. Kimi had an tyre failure in Malaysia if I remember correctly, thats why he was so far behind and thats why I didnt counted the first two stints at all. Than he had clean air. I dont know if his car was damaged. I didnt count Bahrain at all as you can see because the drivers were on an alternative strategies (thats why Kimi almost won the race). I've just tried to see how the pace of both drivers was under the same circumstances with the same weapons (eventhough I think that they didnt had the same car in Spain and not the same engine Belgium AFAIK)
Posted 16 October 2015 - 16:34
Marklar, did you include car damage in this as well? Didn't Kimi drive Malaysia or somewhere with a damaged car and Vettel in Bahrain?
And you woulda thunk that excuses were the exclusive domain from Kimi's side.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 17:04
This sort of thing doesn't work for reasons that have been gone over many times over the past couple years.New thread is up, so I can finally post this one
In the following the lap times compared when they had same tyres, similar tyre age and no traffic. By the way the restart/start laps are NOT includedPACE DIF ADV COMPARABLE LAPS AUS - MAL +0.897 VET 33 CHI -0.205 RAI 21 BAH -0.077 RAI 3 (Note on that: Kimi was faster on primes than Vettel on options which isnt recorded here) ESP +0.507 VET 10 MON +0.523 VET 11 CAN - AUT - GBR +0.149 VET 13 HUN +0.183 VET 32 BEL +0.609 VET 2 ITA +0.405 VET 31 SIN +0.614 VET 27 JPN -0.023 RAI 21 RUS +0.199 VET 6 AVG +0.315 MED +0.302 adjusted average per lap: +0.356
More often than not, it is. Look at who is saying and there is obviously a bit of conniving at work.And you woulda thunk that excuses were the exclusive domain from Kimi's side.
Edited by Seanspeed, 16 October 2015 - 17:08.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 17:18
I know, I know, I wasnt targeting a "right" result, I was targeting to have a tendency and the tendency is that Vettel is faster - with ocassional exceptions - which is also proven already by the results anyway for example.This sort of thing doesn't work for reasons that have been gone over many times over the past couple years.You cant just pick out portions of stints and use them as representative of pace. Not in today's F1.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 17:47
I get it. It's not totally useless information.I know, I know, I wasnt targeting a "right" result, I was targeting to have a tendency and the tendency is that Vettel is faster - with ocassional exceptions - which is also proven already by the results anyway for example.
As some people are claiming that Kimis issues are maily heating issues or "mysterious" low straight line speed on the restart it would have meant that baring all these things he should be somehow at least close to Vettel, but he isnt. One can spin it like he wants, but in the end you will always have as the end result that Vettel didnt just outscored Kimi, he dominated hik, but ocassionaly, more at the season start (which was also my impression btw) Kimi can be competitive, but not more.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 17:52
I know, I know, I wasnt targeting a "right" result, I was targeting to have a tendency and the tendency is that Vettel is faster - with ocassional exceptions - which is also proven already by the results anyway for example.
As some people are claiming that Kimis issues are maily heating issues or "mysterious" low straight line speed on the restart it would have meant that baring all these things he should be somehow at least close to Vettel, but he isnt. One can spin it like he wants, but in the end you will always have as the end result that Vettel didnt just outscored Kimi, he dominated hik, but ocassionaly, more at the season start (which was also my impression btw) Kimi can be competitive, but not more.
Your efforts and contributions are appreciated.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:04
I know, I know, I wasnt targeting a "right" result, I was targeting to have a tendency and the tendency is that Vettel is faster - with ocassional exceptions - which is also proven already by the results anyway for example.
As some people are claiming that Kimis issues are maily heating issues or "mysterious" low straight line speed on the restart it would have meant that baring all these things he should be somehow at least close to Vettel, but he isnt. One can spin it like he wants, but in the end you will always have as the end result that Vettel didnt just outscored Kimi, he dominated hik, but ocassionaly, more at the season start (which was also my impression btw) Kimi can be competitive, but not more.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:10
I dont think that was his intention. He was trying to provide as much of a straight comparison as is possible.So your point is that one can spin it like he wants, by spinning it like you want? Okay, I get it, you were not targeting a right result but just wanted to spin it, so no one doesn't miss the fact that Vettel is doing a better job than Kimi this season? I know Kimi, and in some way his fans, are easy targets this season, again, but let me tell you, we know the scoreboard, no need to spin it, okay?
Edited by Seanspeed, 16 October 2015 - 18:11.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:10
I know, I know, I wasnt targeting a "right" result, I was targeting to have a tendency and the tendency is that Vettel is faster - with ocassional exceptions - which is also proven already by the results anyway for example.
As some people are claiming that Kimis issues are maily heating issues or "mysterious" low straight line speed on the restart it would have meant that baring all these things he should be somehow at least close to Vettel, but he isnt. One can spin it like he wants, but in the end you will always have as the end result that Vettel didnt just outscored Kimi, he dominated hik, but ocassionaly, more at the season start (which was also my impression btw) Kimi can be competitive, but not more.
Hey thanks for the table, must have taken time. Ignore the people who have agendas.
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Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:11
Now Im confused ;)So your point is that one can spin it like he wants, by spinning it like you want? Okay, I get it, you were not targeting a right result but just wanted to spin it, so no one doesn't miss the fact that Vettel is doing a better job than Kimi this season? I know Kimi, and in some way his fans, are easy targets this season, again, but let me tell you, we know the scoreboard, no need to spin it, okay?
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:12
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:19
It's just so difficult to put any hard number on an advantage a driver has, whether it's Lewis vs Nico or Vettel vs Kimi or whoever due to the nature of F1 these days. Two teammates may look entirely equal and matched for 80% of a stint but one driver cranks it up for that other 20% and it makes all the difference in the world. Every single specific situation a driver finds themselves in may call for a unique(different from others) approach. Nobody is out there going 100% the entire time. Drivers can dial back engine modes, braking, throttle application and whatever else, and vice versa. It's an extremely strategic sport nowadays(which I freakin love, by the way), but it marks a big difference from the times where there was pretty much always only one strategy(drive fast til your fuel is about to run out).Well, its not the best way to compare both drivers but 0.3s faster per lap.
So points, podiums, wins, those kind of stats.....
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:22
What I found funny when I look that up was that Vettel was driving 2 laps very slowin Russia, just to setting the fastest lap than in the 3rd lap. He was basically doing a qualifying with two slow laps before the hot lap, typical SebIt's just so difficult to put any hard number on an advantage a driver has, whether it's Lewis vs Nico or Vettel vs Kimi or whoever due to the nature of F1 these days. Two teammates may look entirely equal and matched for 80% of a stint but one driver cranks it up for that other 20% and it makes all the difference in the world. Every single specific situation a driver finds themselves in may call for a unique(different from others) approach. Nobody is out there going 100% the entire time. Drivers can dial back engine modes, braking, throttle application and whatever else, and vice versa. It's an extremely strategic sport nowadays(which I freakin love, by the way), but it marks a big difference from the times where there was pretty much always only one strategy(drive fast til your fuel is about to run out).
Edited by Marklar, 16 October 2015 - 18:23.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:23
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:25
I haven't taken a close look at the times from Russia yet. I'll have to do that.What I found funny when I look that up was that Vettel was driving 2 laps very slowin Russia, just to setting the fastest lap than in the 3rd lap. He was basically doing a qualifying with two slow laps before the hot lap, typical Seb
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:27
Fastest lapIn the vettel vs kimi nearly every stat is on Vettel's side
Posted 16 October 2015 - 18:28
Kimi is the KING of setting a quick lap when it matters least.Fastest lap
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:03
I dont think that was his intention. He was trying to provide as much of a straight comparison as is possible.It is flawed, but anything else results in having to go into wordy analysis as to why the times are why they were.And his posting of the stats did NOT include any extra analysis. Which is fair. He was not trying to twist anything any certain way. In fact, with the caveats he was using for his stats, I would have thought it would have been more flattering for Raikkonen. You are simply getting a bit overdefensive over what was posted. Make your case why they are invalid if you want, but just shouting 'biased stats' isn't enough.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:11
This is the definition of over defensiveness.No shouting bias stats here (he himself said they were not "right"), simply admitting Vettel is doing a better job. But hearing day in and day out when the scoreboard is there for everyone to see, and no one denying it, is actually quite... boring. If you like, perhaps a plead for a more advanced discussion on why Vettel is doing better than Kimi, other than that Kimi is worthless and never was any good ever and is the most overrated driver and lucked in to all his favourable results, not to mentioned his WDC, and is no better than half of the grid, nay, no better than any rookie on the grid, and he' s the new Maldonado (sorry Maldonado fans) and the list goes on and on, day in day out.
Listen, Vettel is doing a hell of a lot better job than Kimi this season, happy? But I won't admit Kimi never was any good, and even if I did would this nonsense ever stop anyway?
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:22
Edited by BJHF1, 16 October 2015 - 19:27.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:22
Kimi is the KING of setting a quick lap when it matters least.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:27
This is the definition of over defensiveness.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:32
It's quite simple really.
The only reason we go down this redundent road is because of the delusional folk continually popping up and every now and then and making claims like, "the scoreboard doesn't reflect their performance & speed", "Kimi is as fast Vettel"...on top of the endless and generally unfounded excuses that are brought out of the closest on a regular basis to try and protect Kimi's reputation and supposed ability.
These are the folks who end up setting off all the antagonizing we see in just about any thread with involving Kimi.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:34
Do you really believe that you can make everyone see things your way, good luck with that. Come back when you're older (no offence intended) and I'll be happy to see if you still have the same standpoint.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 19:58
It absolutely is true. For one, fastest laps have never meant that much. Two, even in 2008, a lot of his fastest laps came when he was already defeated in 3rd or 4th spot, again showing that he was turning the up the wick when it least mattered.This is simply not true! You know this was branded during the days when fastest laps actually meant something, not like today. During those years (2008 for example) it was said that Kimi did his fastest laps, at the end of the races, when no one was pushing anymore during the races. But you know what, back then, when I counted everyones fastest laps during the races, do you know when Kimis fastest laps, in average, were made compared to the other drivers fastest laps? I guess you know considering your response, but please, tell me!
I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss where the entire rest of your post was pure overdefensiveness. No one was saying that Kimi is/was useless or lucked into all his results. That whole rant wasn't even related to what was being talked about. Just comes across as somebody overinvested in their favorite driver and doesn't handle criticism very well.That is your response, did you miss that I admitted that Vettel is doing a hell of a lot better job than Kimi? No wonder the discussion stays at this level.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 20:06
The shame of the vs thread is that it's the only place you can really talk about a driver or their performance. There is not a Kimi fan in this thread that denies that Seb is outperforming Kimi this year. Seb is having a brilliant year, his performance this year has been better than I have seen from any driver for a good few years. He's reaching his prime and has a family and the assurance that brings. Ferrari's desire to sign him, pay him a fortune and his delivering has removed any 'Newey' doubts. He is oozing with self-esteem and it's not an act. He's a 4 times World Champion and could retire but he is now living his childhood dreams. Motivation is through the roof. If he brings Ferrari a WDC he will be a god and replicate his hero Michael's acts. What better way to honour a friendship and motivate yourself?
Now, Kimi fans or some neutrals might want to discuss the drivers performance as it's not all been one way traffic...but there is no opportunity for that without being attacked by what can only be described as haters. Bizarrely these are not Vettel fans so what's the motivation...?
Posted 16 October 2015 - 20:25
Play the victim card all you like, but as much as you *say* you give Vettel credit, you try and balance that out with trying to make it seem like Kimi is just unfortunate each and every weekend. As you've done again here, where you had *no doubt* that Kimi had a problem with a car on the restarts. That's where this stuff comes from. This unending digging to try and save face for Kimi. I've never seen anything like it.The shame of the vs thread is that it's the only place you can really talk about a driver or their performance. There is not a Kimi fan in this thread that denies that Seb is outperforming Kimi this year. Seb is having a brilliant year, his performance this year has been better than I have seen from any driver for a good few years. He's reaching his prime and has a family and the assurance that brings. Ferrari's desire to sign him, pay him a fortune and his delivering has removed any 'Newey' doubts. He is oozing with self-esteem and it's not an act. He's a 4 times World Champion and could retire but he is now living his childhood dreams. Motivation is through the roof. If he brings Ferrari a WDC he will be a god and replicate his hero Michael's acts. What better way to honour a friendship and motivate yourself?
Now, Kimi fans or some neutrals might want to discuss the drivers performance as it's not all been one way traffic...but there is no opportunity for that without being attacked by what can only be described as haters. Bizarrely these are not Vettel fans so what's the motivation...?
Edited by Seanspeed, 16 October 2015 - 20:25.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 20:50
It absolutely is true. For one, fastest laps have never meant that much. Two, even in 2008, a lot of his fastest laps came when he was already defeated in 3rd or 4th spot, again showing that he was turning the up the wick when it least mattered.I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss where the entire rest of your post was pure overdefensiveness. No one was saying that Kimi is/was useless or lucked into all his results. That whole rant wasn't even related to what was being talked about. Just comes across as somebody overinvested in their favorite driver and doesn't handle criticism very well.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 21:04
Well I'm a quitter in the best of times, but yea, I'm with you on that in general! lolSean, believe me it's not getting too hot .... if it was I would be doing tiffosi like us injustice and we never say quit.
I really think I'm one of the last people you should be accusing of not being 'serious'. I'm probably serious to a fault sometimes on here.You're still wrong, many of Kimis fastest laps were set around mid race, or slightly later, not at the end of the races as you imply, contrary to his competitors. Or perhaps you mean that the race results were already decided mid race, something other drivers realized and therefore didn't push, unlike Kimi. If my memory serves me wrong regarding when the fastest laps were set please correct me, I could be wrong afterall.
Oh, criticism, what was that criticism again? That Vettel is doing better than Kimi, I thought I agreed on that, didn't I? Overinvested, rant? You are obviously not paying attention, I asked for a serious discussion, nothing else, is that beeing overinvested in your favourite driver and not handling criticism very well?
I am asking for a serious discussion with serious people, and if that is not for you I will respect it.
Edited by Seanspeed, 16 October 2015 - 21:08.
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Posted 16 October 2015 - 21:15
That is an amazing response to the post he wrote! If I say that 90% of the response in your post can't be found in what he said in his post, am I wrong? He said Seb is having a hell of season and he said that he wanted to discuss drivers performance not beeing all one way traffic, am I wrong?Play the victim card all you like, but as much as you *say* you give Vettel credit, you try and balance that out with trying to make it seem like Kimi is just unfortunate each and every weekend. As you've done again here, where you had *no doubt* that Kimi had a problem with a car on the restarts. That's where this stuff comes from. This unending digging to try and save face for Kimi. I've never seen anything like it.I mean, your signature says it all. You obviously can't let go of this idea of Kimi being this top driver. You will twist anything around in order to fit your *desired* view of him.Let it go. I'm telling you, it's a far more enjoyable experience once you just accept it and move on. How many millions of sports fans out there cheer for teams and competitors that aren't the best? They're ok with that. They accept it and accept the good times and experience dismay with the bad times. It's all part and parcel of the game.
Edited by Lone, 16 October 2015 - 21:38.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 21:32
That is an amazing response to the post he wrote! If I say that 90% of the response in this post can't be found in what he said in his post, am I wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, he said Seb is having a hell of season and he said that he wanted to discuss drivers performance not beeing all one way traffic, am I wrong?
Instead you talk about twisting things around, never seeing anything like it, talking about Kimi having problems at restarts, the idea of Kimi beeing a top driver etc, not a single thing he mentioned in his post. Why? I mean why?
It's about a pattern of posting, not just that one single post. Him playing the persecution card is just a bit ridiculous in context. He's playing up Vettel, but he'd rather say that Vettel is as good as Michael Schumacher than say that Kimi hasn't driven well. Which is where the disagreements come from. Excusing away everything Kimi does wrong or everytime he's slower. I've *rarely* seen this admission that 'Vettel was simply faster' in previous weekends. It's always an impossible battle for him and a couple others to admit that when it happens. Just like last weekend, where Kimble insisted that Kimi's car simply had a mysterious top speed problem and that's why he was overtaken.
Either way, the worst part is this notion that people are 'haters' if they disagree and that they are 'attacking' others for saying so. Granted, there's a degree of frustrated 'COME ON' about it, but I think that's warranted. But I mean, again, this is a thread to discuss the topic. If you are going to hold a hard-to-support opinion, then expect a rough time of it in here. It's not going to be easy if you cannot simply admit when your driver gets beaten and try and make up 1,001 excuses as to why it was equal when it wasn't.
Frankly, not many do it anymore, to be fair. It's become a much smaller minority. And I probably shouldn't spend much time caring. But I also dont think any of us are out of line for pointing out these faulty arguments, either.
Edited by Disgrace, 16 October 2015 - 22:23.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 21:42
Frankly, not many do it anymore, to be fair. It's become a much smaller minority. And I probably shouldn't spend much time caring. But I also dont think any of us are out of line for pointing out these faulty arguments, either.
Yes, there's nobody left posting. They have all been driven away as discussion isn't possible. People just shout down with 'conclusions' that X is faster than Y or someone should retire.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 22:01
It's about a pattern of posting, not just that one single post. Him playing the persecution card is just a bit ridiculous in context. He's playing up Vettel, but he'd rather say that Vettel is as good as Michael Schumacher than say that Kimi hasn't driven well. Which is where the disagreements come from. Excusing away everything Kimi does wrong or everytime he's slower. I've *rarely* seen this admission that 'Vettel was simply faster' in previous weekends. It's always an impossible battle for him and a couple others to admit that when it happens. Just like last weekend, where Kimble insisted that Kimi's car simply had a mysterious top speed problem and that's why he was overtaken.Either way, the worst part is this notion that people are 'haters' if they disagree and that they are 'attacking' others for saying so. Granted, there's a degree of frustrated 'COME ON' about it, but I think that's warranted. But I mean, again, this is a thread to discuss the topic. If you are going to hold a hard-to-support opinion, then expect a rough time of it in here. It's not going to be easy if you cannot simply admit when your driver gets beaten and try and make up 1,001 excuses as to why it was equal when it wasn't.Frankly, not many do it anymore, to be fair. It's become a much smaller minority. And I probably shouldn't spend much time caring. But I also dont think any of us are out of line for pointing out these faulty arguments, either.'Entertain the haters' specifically.Just another way of saying 'trolling'. I'm not dumb.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 22:11
This thread got ugly very quickly. Please find a way to ignore trolling, use the report function, or use the ignore list if necessary. Cheers.
Posted 16 October 2015 - 22:41
This thread got ugly very quickly. Please find a way to ignore trolling, use the report function, or use the ignore list if necessary. Cheers.
Thank you!
Posted 16 October 2015 - 23:25
Posted 17 October 2015 - 01:52
But those are just stats. It doesn't include the fact that James Allison acknowledged that Kimi is just as fast as Vettel...
Edited by GTA, 17 October 2015 - 01:53.
Posted 17 October 2015 - 02:03
Edited by BJHF1, 17 October 2015 - 02:13.
Posted 17 October 2015 - 06:41
Stats are like bikini's in that they do not reveal everything.
Posted 17 October 2015 - 08:03
The most amazing stat to me is that Seb has a 20% win rate this year. Who would have thought that ahead of the season?