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Kimi Raikkonen vs. Sebastian Vettel 2015 III


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#951 MortenF1

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 19:42

That's interesting but not really useful as any more than curiosa. In 2012 Alonso couldn't have done much more and IMHO (and for what it's worth) he did a better job than Vettel that year.



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#952 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 19:59

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What an overexcited comparison  :rotfl:  :lol:

 

Ferrari car in 2012 was the fifth fastest car in the first half of the season and the third fastest car in second half of the season. Fernando Alonso in 2012 had to compete with Williams, Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren and RedBull to be on the podium but Sebastian Vettel with absolutely second fastest car had to just finish the race to be on the podium.


Edited by RYARLE, 02 December 2015 - 20:01.


#953 beqa16v

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 19:59

There was a guy who has 7 world championships and 91 wins. I forget his name.

And I agree Raikkonen lacks 'range'. His narrow performance window is hardly something new. People say that Kimi is somehow not the driver he was before, but I disagree. He's the driver he's always been.
 

Concerning Schumacher, I knew somebody (honestly I was sure it will be you :)) would mention him. That Schumacher retired in 2006 and had a special retirement run in Monza with flags, tears, kisses and hugs. His resurrected zombie career is not worth mentioning at all.

 

I understand your opinion that Kimi has never been faster or more efficient than what he is now but strongly disagree. You might say he is the same type of driver he was but you cant say he is just as fast and efficient as he always was because that makes no sense. If you say that this is the best he has ever been capable of, means that you are saying that he has always been worse than drivers who fared better with Alonso and Vettel. Hence you are saying he has always been much worse than Button (judging from this season Button would have beaten a prime Kimi as badly as Alosno did if you are right. Makes me laugh honestly), worse than Webber, Jarno Trulli, even worse than Magnussen, Perez, Fisichella and and Rubens. Now you understand the utter nonsense you are talking? It turns out that a driver who was worse than 50% of his contemporaries was given a chance in top teams. I see you dont like him but be a bit more realistic please.

 

My take on things is that he lost quite some edge when he took a 2 year sabatical, could not regain qualifying form, tries to overcompensate and makes mistakes. Qualifying mistakes were there in 2013 as well.


Edited by beqa16v, 02 December 2015 - 20:03.


#954 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:03

What an overexcited comparison  :rotfl:  :lol:

 

Ferrari car in 2012 was the fifth fastest car in the first half of the season and the third fastest car in second half of the season. Fernando Alonso in 2012 had to compete with Williams, Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren and RedBull to be on the podium but Sebastian Vettel with absolutely second fastest car had to just finish the race to be on the podium.

I think it was the least fastest car.

 

And as Kimi proved you only have to finish to be on the podium.



#955 MortenF1

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:03

What an overexcited comparison  :rotfl:  :lol:

 

Ferrari car in 2012 was the fifth fastest car in the first half of the season and the third fastest car in second half of the season. Fernando Alonso in 2012 had to compete with Williams, Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren and RedBull to be on the podium but Sebastian Vettel with absolutely second fastest car had to just finish the race to be on the podium.

OK, now you went a little overboard. I don't think it was as bad as fifth fastest anywhere. I doubt all four of McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Williams had the legs on the Ferrari at the same weekend, if memory serves.

The essence of your point I agree with though; Vettel only had to finish to be on the podium this year.



#956 wrcva

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:21

Kimi may have more like a "feel" issue than a "range" issue, imo.   He definitely is not a fan of fly-by-<stuff> and it shows.   He is not able to cope with or tolerate servos, actuators, electric motors, relays, switches and the like acting as intermediaries for giving him the feel for the road.   The fact that he does not like the sim might be working against him as well.   I think the raw speed and control are still there but lack of direct feedback is probably reducing his confidence and playing games with his mind.   He probably needs to pack it up next year, hopefully with better luck and results than he has been able to produce this year.    Who knows, look at the talk about Fred... you are as good as your last race in any case -- drivers can go from hero to zero faster than an F1 car can accelerate and vice versa.



#957 artista

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:37

Back on topic, now.

This is the Räikkönen vs Vettel 2015 thread, not the Vettel vs Alonso, Räikkönen vs Alonso, 2012 vs 2015 or daisies vs roses thread.



#958 YoungGun

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:50



#959 as65p

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 20:52

Concerning Schumacher, I knew somebody (honestly I was sure it will be you :)) would mention him. That Schumacher retired in 2006 and had a special retirement run in Monza with flags, tears, kisses and hugs. His resurrected zombie career is not worth mentioning at all.

 

I understand your opinion that Kimi has never been faster or more efficient than what he is now but strongly disagree. You might say he is the same type of driver he was but you cant say he is just as fast and efficient as he always was because that makes no sense. If you say that this is the best he has ever been capable of, means that you are saying that he has always been worse than drivers who fared better with Alonso and Vettel. Hence you are saying he has always been much worse than Button (judging from this season Button would have beaten a prime Kimi as badly as Alosno did if you are right. Makes me laugh honestly), worse than Webber, Jarno Trulli, even worse than Magnussen, Perez, Fisichella and and Rubens. Now you understand the utter nonsense you are talking? It turns out that a driver who was worse than 50% of his contemporaries was given a chance in top teams. I see you dont like him but be a bit more realistic please.

 

My take on things is that he lost quite some edge when he took a 2 year sabatical, could not regain qualifying form, tries to overcompensate and makes mistakes. Qualifying mistakes were there in 2013 as well.

You shouldn't underestimate fan power, especially not when you're part of it ;) Didn't Ferrari even mention it when re-hiring Kimi? That, and the love affair between him and Seb are probably a big part of the reasons why he's still driving for Ferrari. Plus Ferrari has form with this with Massa. Finally, looking at Toto Wolffs current troubles, isn't it nice to know that Ferrari won't have them for the foreseeable future? :p



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#960 YoungGun

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 21:10

Finally, looking at Toto Wolffs current troubles, isn't it nice to know that Ferrari won't have them for the foreseeable future?

 

You finally get it! :up: :up:



#961 dreamer

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 16:48

Ok it's not Kimi vs Vettel but...  :p 



#962 MikeV1987

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 18:21

I hate that song so much.



#963 MLC

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 00:41

Concerning Schumacher, I knew somebody (honestly I was sure it will be you :)) would mention him. That Schumacher retired in 2006 and had a special retirement run in Monza with flags, tears, kisses and hugs. His resurrected zombie career is not worth mentioning at all.

 

I understand your opinion that Kimi has never been faster or more efficient than what he is now but strongly disagree. You might say he is the same type of driver he was but you cant say he is just as fast and efficient as he always was because that makes no sense. If you say that this is the best he has ever been capable of, means that you are saying that he has always been worse than drivers who fared better with Alonso and Vettel. Hence you are saying he has always been much worse than Button (judging from this season Button would have beaten a prime Kimi as badly as Alosno did if you are right. Makes me laugh honestly), worse than Webber, Jarno Trulli, even worse than Magnussen, Perez, Fisichella and and Rubens. Now you understand the utter nonsense you are talking? It turns out that a driver who was worse than 50% of his contemporaries was given a chance in top teams. I see you dont like him but be a bit more realistic please.

 

My take on things is that he lost quite some edge when he took a 2 year sabatical, could not regain qualifying form, tries to overcompensate and makes mistakes. Qualifying mistakes were there in 2013 as well.

 

 

I think you make some good points. But you do have to consider Kimi's form against Massa in 2007-2009, which was before the sabbatical and in his "prime" years. I certainly don't think Kimi is worse than those drivers you mention, though I certainly don't think he was ever Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel material either.



#964 beqa16v

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 05:59

I think you make some good points. But you do have to consider Kimi's form against Massa in 2007-2009, which was before the sabbatical and in his "prime" years. I certainly don't think Kimi is worse than those drivers you mention, though I certainly don't think he was ever Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel material either.

Kimi won't be regarded as high as Hamilton, Vettel and even Alonso this is true. He was bloody fast but his weakness in relation to those three you mentioned (especially Vettel and Alonso) was his work outside of the car which compromised him on the track. Against Massa, well he was always quicker in races even in 2008 he was comfortably quicker but there was no DRS back then to recover from a bad qualifying. He required 5-6 laps to come to speed (probably due to tire heating issues). He also had horrible luck, those who watched the season will remember. If Kimi had as much backing in 2008 as Alonso did in his years, I'm sure the story would have been different. But Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso at that time already. All this refers to prime Kimi now and not the current version.

 

On the other hand I think Alonso is massively overhyped, he was presented as some sort of a god behind the wheel. Most of his advantage over his teammates came from his position in the team and his backing, he was always somebody's big project unlike Kimi (I mean financial project also). Flavio Briatore and Alejandro Agag paid 5 million for TV rights in Spain, made Fernando a champion and price of their rights skyrocketed to 50mil. Dont you find it strange that he looks like just another top driver now that Botin has died and he no longer has a huge backing he had before? I don't. A standout driver indeed, but not a 10 foot monster we were continuously told he was.


Edited by beqa16v, 04 December 2015 - 06:04.


#965 as65p

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 06:12

Kimi won't be regarded as high as Hamilton, Vettel and even Alonso this is true. He was bloody fast but his weakness in relation to those three you mentioned (especially Vettel and Alonso) was his work outside of the car which compromised him on the track. Against Massa, well he was always quicker in races even in 2008 he was comfortably quicker but there was no DRS back then to recover from a bad qualifying. He required 5-6 laps to come to speed (probably due to tire heating issues). He also had horrible luck, those who watched the season will remember. If Kimi had as much backing in 2008 as Alonso did in his years, I'm sure the story would have been different. But Ferrari were negotiating with Alonso at that time already. All this refers to prime Kimi now and not the current version.

 

Wut? :drunk:

 

On the other hand I think Alonso is massively overhyped, he was presented as some sort of a god behind the wheel. Most of his advantage over his teammates came from his position in the team and his backing, he was always somebody's big project unlike Kimi (I mean financial project also). Flavio Briatore and Alejandro Agag paid 5 million for TV rights in Spain, made Fernando a champion and price of their rights skyrocketed to 50mil. Dont you find it strange that he looks like just another top driver now that Botin has died and he no longer has a huge backing he had before? I don't. A standout driver indeed, but not a 10 foot monster we were continuously told he was..

Hint: it makes Kimi look worse if you denigrade Alonso.



#966 beqa16v

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 06:58

Wut? :drunk:

 

Hint: it makes Kimi look worse if you denigrade Alonso.

I think you haven't watched that season really. He was struggling in qualifying, especially mid season. But in races, after first 4-5 laps he was very quick and quicker than Massa. Unfortunately for him he was already handicapped by his bad quali and there was another car between him and the leaders who was impossible to overtake as there was no DRS. Ferrari even had a telemetry of both drivers on their website for every track back in 2008-2009 with best laps from both. Kimi's laps were always quicker, mostly because he had more % of total time on throttle.

 

As for your second point, I dont care that much really. Fernando was in great form, Kimi wasnt already. I do not know of any other driver who could go to Ferrari and beat him on his own Territory, not even Vettel or Lewis. I remember Button was asked about Alonso and he said he would like to be his teammate one day, but not in Ferrari.



#967 as65p

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:16

I think you haven't watched that season really. He was struggling in qualifying, especially mid season. But in races, after first 4-5 laps he was very quick and quicker than Massa. Unfortunately for him he was already handicapped by his bad quali and there was another car between him and the leaders who was impossible to overtake as there was no DRS. Ferrari even had a telemetry of both drivers on their website for every track back in 2008-2009 with best laps from both. Kimi's laps were always quicker, mostly because he had more % of total time on throttle.

Yeah, I thought you'd use fastest laps to conclude superior race speed for Kimi. It means nothing, Kimi does that at random times when his car and tyres drop into his tiny optimal operatiopn window by chance, doesn't tell a thing about his speed over a race distance.

 

 

As for your second point, I dont care that much really. Fernando was in great form, Kimi wasnt already. I do not know of any other driver who could go to Ferrari and beat him on his own Territory, not even Vettel or Lewis. I remember Button was asked about Alonso and he said he would like to be his teammate one day, but not in Ferrari.

 

Well, a better driver can do that, just look at what Vettel did to Kimi this year, no concerns about territory.



#968 beqa16v

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:26

Yeah, I thought you'd use fastest laps to conclude superior race speed for Kimi. It means nothing, Kimi does that at random times when his car and tyres drop into his tiny optimal operatiopn window by chance, doesn't tell a thing about his speed over a race distance.

 

 

Well, a better driver can do that, just look at what Vettel did to Kimi this year, no concerns about territory.

I havent mentioned fastest laps, I said he had better race speed but could not capitalize due to bad qualifying.

 

Vettel hasn't beaten Alonso in a Ferrari. Besides, as an overal package Vettel is better than prime Kimi


Edited by beqa16v, 04 December 2015 - 07:53.


#969 ardbeg

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 08:59

What an overexcited comparison  :rotfl:  :lol:

 

Ferrari car in 2012 was the fifth fastest car in the first half of the season and the third fastest car in second half of the season. Fernando Alonso in 2012 had to compete with Williams, Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren and RedBull to be on the podium but Sebastian Vettel with absolutely second fastest car had to just finish the race to be on the podium.

Another way to look at it is that Ferrari slipped further and further behind during the Alonso years and starting moving forward again after he left :)



#970 SophieB

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:12

I guess the inability of people to stick to discussing Vettel vs Raikkonen in 2015 despite the mod warnings to stay on topic is a sign valid discussion of the season is exhausted.

 

edit: Reopened on request. Please don't use this chance to go on about Alonso, Massa or any other old ground that isn't about the topic.