84 replies to this topic

[Graveltrappen]

http://www.jamesalle...e-triple-crown/

This would be superb. Missed Montoya from F1, and don't follow his American exploits too closely. Would love to see him succeed at this, as he didn't stick around for a WDC in F1.

[B Squared]

l believe he has one more year on his Penske contract, but with Team Penske's long and successful association with Porsche, it may happen in 2016 based on the tentative Indy Car schedule.

[EvilPhil II]

In a car like that he would be unstoppable 

[Imateria]

I hope it happens, one more good excuse to watch Le Mans.

[Volcano70]

I'd be fine with that 

[Afterburner]

Watch this thread in eight months' time. 

[Nonesuch]

He spoke about the LMP1 cars with great passion when they had their race in Texas; it'd be great to see him in action at The Big Race.

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 October 2015 - 22:27.

[Spillage]

I would very much love to see him pull this off. The youngest 'Triple Crown' race is the Monaco GP, first held in 1929. In all that time Graham Hill is the only man to have won all three, which really shows how remarkable an achievement it would be.

[JHSingo]

In before the inevitable "he's not a good driver because he didn't achieve anything in F1" comments.

 

I'm a big fan of JPM, and have been for many years. I also really enjoy seeing drivers showing off their diversity, and racing in very different classes. So this would be a win-win as far as I'm concerned, would love to see it happen. It'd be very cool to see someone complete the Triple Crown in my life time, seeing as it probably wouldn't happen again.

[P123]

In before the inevitable "he's not a good driver because he didn't achieve anything in F1" comments.

Doubt anybody would be daft enough to mutter such blasphemy.... but it did used to be a very fashionable pot-shot, especially when he first entered F1. "American driver", "Indycar drivers never achieve anything in F1", etc, etc. Of course his F3000 championship was a mystery to such naysayers at the time..

[teejay]

Got screwed - should of won the 03 title.

 

Hope he does it.

[George Costanza]

 Yeah he got somewhat robbed in 2003, but still... Jacques also could have won in 2008. Besides Graham Hill, Jochen Ridnt would have probably won it too. He won Le Mans in  1965 and F1 World Championship and Monaco in 1970.

Edited by George Costanza, 22 October 2015 - 00:07.

[Watkins74]

In a car like that he would be unstoppable

A Montoya fan.....but......Juan tends to stop Juan.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

This is very realistic, and he definitely has the ability. I recall in one Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona a few years ago he was just a monster, putting in very fast laps, consistently. So going along with is immense talent, he has endurance experience. In fact, he has won the Rolex 3 times.

[Prost1997T]

A Montoya fan.....but......Juan tends to stop Juan.

 

He seems to do alright in hectic Indycar restarts, regardless of track. Remember the 8-wide at Pocono? Le Mans is much more smooth and open than most circuits JPM has raced on recently, and traffic is going to be much more spread out in general. A fast, stable platform like the Porsche LMP1 should be no problem for him. If anything I'd be curious as to whether his raw one-lap pace in a prototype stacks up.

Edited by Prost1997T, 22 October 2015 - 02:06.

[whitewaterMkII]

I hope the schedule works out first off for him to do Le Mans, and that Penske lets him do it.

I'm more in line of the thought he'll do a full WEC schedule in 2017.

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 22 October 2015 - 02:55.

[Henri Greuter]

Problem for Porsche and perhaps in general: a victory by a crew build around Montoya would likely be credited be JPM's achievement and the factor of car and fellow drivers being dimninshed. A bit like what happens right now with this year's winners. Hulkenberg gets the major credits and is the focus of atttention just about everywhere outside England. But I am pushed really hard by now to remember who were his teammates without looking it up first! Nick Tandy was one but who was the other?

 

looked it up:  Earl Bamber.

 

I feel something similar would be very much possible with a third car fielded by Porsche with Moantoya being one of the drivers.

 

Henri

[lustigson]

Wow, this would be fantastic. After Graham Hill completing the Triple Crown in 1972, how cool would it be if Juan Pablo Montoya would do the same in 2016 or 2017. 

[Rinehart]

If it weren't for the fact that F1, Indy and Le Mans were all separate kingdoms run by separate bodies, the "triple crown" of motorsports would be a much bigger thing - as it should be. 

I hope JPM attempts this and I hope one day that a few heads are banged together to try to fomalise this feat, with an official trophy and proper publicity, leading to more attempts to achieve it. 

[Henri Greuter]

If it weren't for the fact that F1, Indy and Le Mans were all separate kingdoms run by separate bodies, the "triple crown" of motorsports would be a much bigger thing - as it should be. 

I hope JPM attempts this and I hope one day that a few heads are banged together to try to fomalise this feat, with an official trophy and proper publicity, leading to more attempts to achieve it. 

 

I'm afraid it's never gonna happen. The fact that that a GP is put up against Le Mans in the same weekend next year again (like had happenes so often in the past already) just about tells it all how certain powers within F1 think about anything else but F1. The `no clash` of this year certainly didn't work for them thus avoid something similar....

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

l believe he has one more year on his Penske contract, but with Team Penske's long and successful association with Porsche, it may happen in 2016 based on the tentative Indy Car schedule.

 

 

There was certainly success when Penske and Porsche teamed up.

 

But there was friction too: remember 1990 and how the Indycar 90P was `wingclipped` because of Penske & Co.

 

And wasn't it in 1980 when Penske told Porsche that, when the Flat6 powered project came to a sudden standstill that Indycar teams didn't want compete against effectively a factory team?

 

 

Henri

[taran]

Problem for Porsche and perhaps in general: a victory by a crew build around Montoya would likely be credited be JPM's achievement and the factor of car and fellow drivers being dimninshed. A bit like what happens right now with this year's winners. Hulkenberg gets the major credits and is the focus of atttention just about everywhere outside England. But I am pushed really hard by now to remember who were his teammates without looking it up first! Nick Tandy was one but who was the other?

 

looked it up:  Earl Bamber.

 

I feel something similar would be very much possible with a third car fielded by Porsche with Moantoya being one of the drivers.

 

Henri

 

Sure. But teams pick these drivers not just because of their abilities but because they generate media attention. Webber is a decent driver but hardly a must buy driver for a WEC team. His name recognition however makes him worthwile. Same with Hulkenberg. Montoya might break the internet if he wins   and Porsche would ride his coattails to glory.

 

If you believe the driver overshadows the cars at Le Mans.....Personally, I think its the other way around. How many people know who drove the winning Jaguars in the 1950s? Or in 1988? Or who was in the winning Mazda? Or in any Le Mans winning Audi besides Tom Kristensen?

[Nemo1965]

Wow, this would be fantastic. After Graham Hill completing the Triple Crown in 1972, how cool would it be if Juan Pablo Montoya would do the same in 2016 or 2017. 

 

Eh? I don't get it. A 'crown' means winning the whole lot. Isn't the point of the triple Crown you win the F1 world TITLE, the TITLE of Le Mans and the TITLE at Indy, meaning: the crown?

 

Montoya won races in F1. That is good but not 'the crown'.

[lustigson]

Eh? I don't get it. A 'crown' means winning the whole lot. Isn't the point of the triple Crown you win the F1 world TITLE, the TITLE of Le Mans and the TITLE at Indy, meaning: the crown?

 

Montoya won races in F1. That is good but not 'the crown'.

 

The unofficial Triple Crown of Motorsport is considered to be the combination of winning:

• The Monaco Grand Prix
• The Indianapolis 500
• The Le Mans 24 Hours

They're three blue riband races, with their own histories dating back 85-100 years, in very distinct categories: GP/F1, oval racing, and endurance.

 

Montoya won 2 of the 3, and he's the only currently active driver able to complete the triple.

Edited by lustigson, 22 October 2015 - 09:46.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

I was thinking recently about my favourite drivers at Williams and I decided I hadn't given Montoya anything like enough credit (maybe because at the Regents Street London F1 demo he completely ignored everyone as he walked down the track and I felt bitter and twisted about everything   )  but, hindsight, I think he is one of my favourite drivers to have driven for the team during my years as a fan (which properly has been since the mid-late 90s).  

 

Really hope that he gets this drive and is able to get the win next year.  I'll be cheering him on!

[B Squared]

There was certainly success when Penske and Porsche teamed up.
 
But there was friction too: remember 1990 and how the Indycar 90P was `wingclipped` because of Penske & Co.
 
And wasn't it in 1980 when Penske told Porsche that, when the Flat6 powered project came to a sudden standstill that Indycar teams didn't want compete against effectively a factory team?
 
 
Henri

Porsche seems to have been more gracious than you could ever consider when it comes to Team Penske; remember the DHL cars that Team Penske successfully competed with from 2005 to 2008? Of course you do, but hey, why not gouge Penske per your usual and worn out routine?

http://www.teampensk...S_Series_Finale

[Henri Greuter]

Sure. But teams pick these drivers not just because of their abilities but because they generate media attention. Webber is a decent driver but hardly a must buy driver for a WEC team. His name recognition however makes him worthwile. Same with Hulkenberg. Montoya might break the internet if he wins   and Porsche would ride his coattails to glory.

 

If you believe the driver overshadows the cars at Le Mans.....Personally, I think its the other way around. How many people know who drove the winning Jaguars in the 1950s? Or in 1988? Or who was in the winning Mazda? Or in any Le Mans winning Audi besides Tom Kristensen?

 

 

out of the top of my head, Jaguars:  Hawthorn and Bueb, Flockhart & Sanderson were part of winning crews

1988: Being Dutch myself I'll always remember that one: Lammers-Wallace-Dumfries

the Mazda: Herbert-Gachot-Weidler/

 

Audi:  besides Kristensen: Frank Biela, Emanuelle Pirro, Alan McNish, Andre Lotterer ........   eh..... 

    Yep, I think I know what you mean.

 

 

henri

[lustigson]

out of the top of my head, Jaguars:  Hawthorn and Bueb, Flockhart & Sanderson were part of winning crews

1988: Being Dutch myself I'll always remember that one: Lammers-Wallace-Dumfries

the Mazda: Herbert-Gachot-Weidler/

 

Audi:  besides Kristensen: Frank Biela, Emanuelle Pirro, Alan McNish, Andre Lotterer ........   eh..... 

    Yep, I think I know what you mean.

 

 

henri

 

Smartypants. ;-)

[Henri Greuter]

Porsche seems to have been more gracious than you could ever consider when it comes to Team Penske; remember the DHL cars that Team Penske successfully competed with from 2005 to 2008? Of course you do, but hey, why not gouge Penske per your usual and worn out routine?

http://www.teampensk...S_Series_Finale

 

 

When I referred to the successes between Porsche & Penske, though I didn't mention them, I was definitely thinking about the 2005-2008 spell with the RS spyders in addition to the Can-Am and 1973 Carrera RS exploits. Surely a lot of water had run under the bridges since 1980-1990......

Hey, were you aware of the fact that initially it appears to have been Roger Penske who was behind the first attempts to develop the turbocharged version of the Cosworth DFV for indycars but eventually handed that over to Parnelli Jones&Co because he got the better idea of trying to persuade Porsche to built a new, turbocharged indycar engine?

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

Smartypants. ;-)

 

 

I tell you in all honesty, I was kind of surprised to discover that, when dealing with the winning Audi drivers: the more recent names, the tougher it became.

 

 

Henri

[Lights]

Juan is more clever than he looks. And while he wasn't the most talented F1 driver, it's really impressive what he has achieved around it. I'd like him to win Le Man's.

[lustigson]

I tell you in all honesty, I was kind of surprised to discover that, when dealing with the winning Audi drivers: the more recent names, the tougher it became.

 

 

Henri

 

Oh, but that I recognise: I used to now a whole plethora of winners of each Grand Prix, circuit corner names, et cetera, from the mid-1990s to the early 2000s... but I can't be bothered, today. 

[lustigson]

... it's really impressive what he has achieved around it. I'd like him to win Le Man's.

 

Fully agreed. If he does win Le Mans, it would make him one of the all-time greats, in my book.

[Henri Greuter]

Oh, but that I recognise: I used to now a whole plethora of winners of each Grand Prix, circuit corner names, et cetera, from the mid-1990s to the early 2000s... but I can't be bothered, today. 

 

Agree on the F1 situation. But since I consider myself more of a Le Mans fan than F1 fan nowadays, then it becomes surprinsing to find out how a number of memorable Post 2000 Le Mans events I can still remember but if it comes to tell the year when it took place.

Almost feels as if it's ageing related instead of with the fanatism level of being a fan.

 

 

Henri

[Imateria]

 Yeah he got somewhat robbed in 2003, but still... Jacques also could have won in 2008. Besides Graham Hill, Jochen Ridnt would have probably won it too. He won Le Mans in  1965 and F1 World Championship and Monaco in 1970.

Not sure I'd say Jaques came close, he was quick in the wet Sunday morning but he didn't like driving at night and in the dry was the weak link of the Peugeot line up. McNish in the slower Audi certainly drove circles around him.

[Rinehart]

I'm afraid it's never gonna happen. The fact that that a GP is put up against Le Mans in the same weekend next year again (like had happenes so often in the past already) just about tells it all how certain powers within F1 think about anything else but F1. The `no clash` of this year certainly didn't work for them thus avoid something similar....

 

 

Henri

I know. I'm just dreaming, but it would be awesome if there was a Graham Hill Trophy for it. 

[Nemo1965]

The unofficial Triple Crown of Motorsport is considered to be the combination of winning:

• The Monaco Grand Prix
• The Indianapolis 500
• The Le Mans 24 Hours

They're three blue riband races, with their own histories dating back 85-100 years, in very distinct categories: GP/F1, oval racing, and endurance.

 

Montoya won 2 of the 3, and he's the only currently active driver able to complete the triple.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

[MustangSally]

 I'd give him at least half a chance of a win, since he can drive the wheels off anything. It's a facility not all drivers have.

 

Having said that, however, current schedules and contracts don't allow drivers to participate in many different series as they did in the days of Graham Hill. 

[Myrvold]

The unofficial Triple Crown of Motorsport is considered to be the combination of winning:

• The Monaco Grand Prix
• The Indianapolis 500
• The Le Mans 24 Hours

They're three blue riband races, with their own histories dating back 85-100 years, in very distinct categories: GP/F1, oval racing, and endurance.

 

Montoya won 2 of the 3, and he's the only currently active driver able to complete the triple.

 

Isn't this a bit dependent on where you check it? I mean, many, me included would add Villeneuve to that list if he won Le Mans.

 

Like the Wikipedia article states https://en.wikipedia...e_Crown_winners "  the alternative definition of winning the Indianapolis 500 plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans plus either of the Monaco Grand Prix or the Formula One World Drivers' Championship."

 

The fun thing is, either definition, Graham Hill have won it all.

Edited by Myrvold, 22 October 2015 - 13:06.

[B Squared]

Hey, were you aware of the fact that initially it appears to have been Roger Penske who was behind the first attempts to develop the turbocharged version of the Cosworth DFV for indycars but eventually handed that over to Parnelli Jones&Co because he got the better idea of trying to persuade Porsche to built a new, turbocharged indycar engine?

I'm unsure how this relates to Penske-contracted driver, Juan Pablo Montoya testing for Porsche now, 35 years-plus down the road from your grievances.

 

This Flatsixes Porsche blog from a couple of years ago talks of their close relationship that dates back to Mr. Penske winning races as a driver in their cars and speculates on their future endeavors.

 

http://flatsixes.com...together-again/

 

In fact, when talking with acquaintance Karl Kainhofer during the Michael Argetsinger/Mark Donohue book releases, Karl shared spending nine years learning his trade and joining Porsche in 1956. He was trained in Stuttgart as a factory mechanic, then emigrated to America in 1958 and worked for a handful of Porsche dealers and SCCA racers, including Roger Penske. Mr. Kainhofer was hired on a freelance basis to take care of a variety of his cars over the next few years. When Penske started his racing team in 1966 he asked Kainhofer to join him as his first and, at that time, only employee. Karl said that he, Mr. P and Mark were all commited to the same level of excellence and preparation long-associated with the Team. As I stated above, their ties run deep. 

 

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no459.html

 

If you are still not convinced. the following link will show that Porsche's are part of the network of cars that Mr. Penske's companies sell:

 

https://www.penskeau...ip-porsche.html

Edited by B Squared, 22 October 2015 - 13:10.

[lustigson]

Like the Wikipedia article states https://en.wikipedia...e_Crown_winners "  the alternative definition of winning the Indianapolis 500 plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans plus either of the Monaco Grand Prix or the Formula One World Drivers' Championship."

 

Agreed, that's what Wikipedia says. And since the Triple Crown is noting official, the alternative is just as valid.

 

But to me, it still is just an alternative. And that's because the other definition is about three separate races, while the alternative is about two races and one series/championship.

 

Again, both are fine, but I like the former better.  

[whitewaterMkII]

 

 

 

...In fact, when talking with acquaintance Karl Kainhofer...

 

Learned two interesting things from that article. I didn't know that Roger ran the '71 LeMans in a Ferrari with David Hobbs and Donuhue at the wheel.

Ol' Rog was a busy little beaver in the 60s and 70s with a very small group of people. Kainhofer was quite the mechanic, on anything with wheels. I wouldn't doubt that Roger will back Montoya somehow with his Porsche deal, not that JPM would need to bring anything to the table, but just out of general respect for the Le Mans, Porsche, and JPM.

Good read, thanks. 

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 22 October 2015 - 13:50.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

If anything I'd be curious as to whether his raw one-lap pace in a prototype stacks up.

 

That question has already been answered. In the 2013 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona has drove the anchor leg, the last two hours. He was a monster, the faster car out there and untouchable. And don't forget, each team put their best and fastest driver out for the final leg. So he was mixed up with some darn good drivers.

 

Can he driver a prototype fast?  YES

 

Can he maintain it during his entire driving stint? YES

 

Does he have endurance experience?   YES

 

Can he drive fast in mixed traffic?  YES

 

Can he take care of the car and not break it?   YES

[Rob]

Isn't this a bit dependent on where you check it? I mean, many, me included would add Villeneuve to that list if he won Le Mans.

 

Like the Wikipedia article states https://en.wikipedia...e_Crown_winners "  the alternative definition of winning the Indianapolis 500 plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans plus either of the Monaco Grand Prix or the Formula One World Drivers' Championship."

 

The fun thing is, either definition, Graham Hill have won it all.

 

The Monaco GP getting substituted in seems like a recent thing. I think the idea of the triple crown stems from the largely Euro-centric viewpoint that the F1 championship is the pinnacle and you're putting the cherry on the cake with the two most important international races.

 

Regardless, the triple crown doesn't exist. There's no trophy. It's something that we made up.

[Henri Greuter]

I'm unsure how this relates to Penske-contracted driver, Juan Pablo Montoya testing for Porsche now, 35 years-plus down the road from your grievances.

 

This Flatsixes Porsche blog from a couple of years ago talks of their close relationship that dates back to Mr. Penske winning races as a driver in their cars and speculates on their future endeavors.

 

http://flatsixes.com...together-again/

 

In fact, when talking with acquaintance Karl Kainhofer during the Michael Argetsinger/Mark Donohue book releases, Karl shared spending nine years learning his trade and joining Porsche in 1956. He was trained in Stuttgart as a factory mechanic, then emigrated to America in 1958 and worked for a handful of Porsche dealers and SCCA racers, including Roger Penske. Mr. Kainhofer was hired on a freelance basis to take care of a variety of his cars over the next few years. When Penske started his racing team in 1966 he asked Kainhofer to join him as his first and, at that time, only employee. Karl said that he, Mr. P and Mark were all commited to the same level of excellence and preparation long-associated with the Team. As I stated above, their ties run deep. 

 

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no459.html

 

If you are still not convinced. the following link will show that Porsche's are part of the network of cars that Mr. Penske's companies sell:

 

https://www.penskeau...ip-porsche.html

 

 

I have the feeling that you are this time misunderstanding why I brought up the Indy mishaps of Porsche and the share Penske had in that. It wasn't always happyness between them, let alone long and successfull when they were opponents within CART.

But like I concluded: since those CART mishaps there has flown a lot of water under the bridges that enabled Penske & Porsche to team up with the Spyder RS.

 

But let's stick to the subject instead of derailing another all the time OK? 

 

 

Henri

[Tsarwash]

But there could be a trophy. There's nothing to stop an ex racer with a bit of money in their pocket having a trophy made and presenting it to Juan if he completes it. I would do it if I were in a position of respect and had the money. Jacques would be an ideal candidate, as he has competed in all of the races. (Actually Sterling Moss and Mario Andretti would be better.)

[lustigson]

Regardless, the triple crown doesn't exist. There's no trophy. It's something that we made up.

 

But who made it up? I've known about it for at least 20 years.

 

Since Indy (1911), Le Mans (1923) and Monaco (1929) have been around for 86 to 105 years, there must have been mentions of a triple crown of motorsports since at least some time in the 1970s.

[MustangSally]

Isn't this a bit dependent on where you check it? I mean, many, me included would add Villeneuve to that list if he won Le Mans.

 

Like the Wikipedia article states https://en.wikipedia...e_Crown_winners "  the alternative definition of winning the Indianapolis 500 plus the 24 Hours of Le Mans plus either of the Monaco Grand Prix or the Formula One World Drivers' Championship."

 

The fun thing is, either definition, Graham Hill have won it all.

 

I wonder who still could? If the 'triple crown' thing suddenly became more than a curio? A JPM win would  certainly popularise the achievement. There was a lot of interest in Hulk's recent foray into Le Mans.

 

As far as I know, you can still enter Indy as a one off race? Does that still hold?  Mansell wasn't far off at his first attempt.  

 

Webber would be a likely candidate?

 

Which do you think is the hardest to win?

[Myrvold]

Which do you think is the hardest to win?

Indy 500 is more specialized than the two others, but then again for a person growing up on ovals, Monaco would prob. be harder. It all depends

[ensign14]

If it weren't for the fact that F1, Indy and Le Mans were all separate kingdoms run by separate bodies, the "triple crown" of motorsports would be a much bigger thing - as it should be. 

 

In Ensign's World of Brilliance, the Indy 500 and Le Mans 24 are World Championship rounds.  Toying with the Daytona 500 to kick the whole thing off as well.  Why restrict the WC to F1 alone?  It wasn't always like that.