84 replies to this topic

[MastaKink]

Would love it if he managed to do it, I've been wanting someone to do it for a long time.  I always had a feeling Alonso would have a crack at the 500 if he were to win Le Mans at some stage, I don't know why.

 

For as long as i've been aware of the triple crown and heard people talk about it , it has always been the 3 big races.  Never heard about the F1 title being apart of it until now. That would make little sense having 2 single races and a world title, to me anyway.  

 

The whole point was that it was the 3 most prestigious races in motorsport from what i understood growing up.  I heard enough tales about Clark's bad luck in 2 of the 3 legs and there was never any mention of his titles counting towards it. 

[Fastcake]

If you were to aim for the crown, the hardest one to win would probably be Indy nowadays. Not so much because of the outright difficulty of winning that race, but more the necessity of gaining experience on ovals and having time for the race, which would likely mean a short-term move to America. Le Mans could overlap with a F1 career, anyone could follow Hulkenberg in testing the car and entering a prelim event, as long as the calendars permit it. You could see guys like Button and Alonso who've already won the Monaco Grand Prix doing Le Mans, either during or after their F1 career, but to enter the Indy 500 would probably need a free year.

Edited by Fastcake, 22 October 2015 - 15:05.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think the Triple Crown itself is overrated. But winning *any* race in multiple top-line championships is a big achievement. Probably more so in the last 20 years.

[Spillage]

If you were to aim for the crown, the hardest one to win would probably be Indy nowadays. Not so much because of the outright difficulty of winning that race, but more the necessity of gaining experience on ovals and having time for the race, which would likely mean a short-term move to America. Le Mans could overlap with a F1 career, anyone could follow Hulkenberg in testing the car and entering a prelim event, as long as the calendars permit it. You could see guys like Button and Alonso who've already won the Monaco Grand Prix doing Le Mans, either during or after their F1 career, but to enter the Indy 500 would probably need a free year.

I dunno, Dan Wheldon won it in 2011 when he wasn't competing in the regular season. Kurt Busch finished sixth in 2014 with very limited single-seater experience. Granted, those guys had an awful lot of oval-racing experience at the time, but I think that with a bit of luck and a lot of preparation a driver like Alonso could be very competitive at IMS.

 

I'm always a bit torn on the fact that the Indy 500 falls on the same day as the Monaco GP. On the one hand, it makes that Sunday the highlight of the motorsport year, but on the other, it means it's no longer possible for someone to pop over the Atlantic to try to win the 500, a la Clark and Hill.

[JHSingo]

I'm always a bit torn on the fact that the Indy 500 falls on the same day as the Monaco GP. On the one hand, it makes that Sunday the highlight of the motorsport year, but on the other, it means it's no longer possible for someone to pop over the Atlantic to try to win the 500, a la Clark and Hill.

 

That's not exactly a new thing though. I may be wrong, but didn't Clark once skip the Monaco GP so he could race at Indy? I mean that type of thing is unheard of today, although it would be entertaining to see what the reaction would be if Hamilton or Vettel did something like that.

[Victor_RO]

That's not exactly a new thing though. I may be wrong, but didn't Clark once skip the Monaco GP so he could race at Indy? I mean that type of thing is unheard of today, although it would be entertaining to see what the reaction would be if Hamilton or Vettel did something like that.

 

Yes he did, and he actually won in that year. And after looking it up, it seems that it was 1965... and because of that he remains the only driver to have won the 500 and the F1 world title in the same year.

[Prost1997T]

I dunno, Dan Wheldon won it in 2011 when he wasn't competing in the regular season. Kurt Busch finished sixth in 2014 with very limited single-seater experience. Granted, those guys had an awful lot of oval-racing experience at the time, but I think that with a bit of luck and a lot of preparation a driver like Alonso could be very competitive at IMS.

 

I'm always a bit torn on the fact that the Indy 500 falls on the same day as the Monaco GP. On the one hand, it makes that Sunday the highlight of the motorsport year, but on the other, it means it's no longer possible for someone to pop over the Atlantic to try to win the 500, a la Clark and Hill.

 

Wheldon, the 2005 IRL champion and 7-year oval veteran was still racing part-time (and he had some help from Hildebrand tripping over a lapped car). Kurt Busch has over 600 stock car starts to his credit, the vast majority being on ovals, aside from being the 2004 Cup champion with 25 wins in that series at the time.

[whitewaterMkII]

That's not exactly a new thing though. I may be wrong, but didn't Clark once skip the Monaco GP so he could race at Indy? I mean that type of thing is unheard of today, although it would be entertaining to see what the reaction would be if Hamilton or Vettel did something like that.

heh, good luck with that

If Vettel or Ham skipped an F1 race, any F1 race, to compete in the US it would break this site, and probably a lot more than just this one.

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 22 October 2015 - 17:20.

[Spillage]

That's not exactly a new thing though. I may be wrong, but didn't Clark once skip the Monaco GP so he could race at Indy? I mean that type of thing is unheard of today, although it would be entertaining to see what the reaction would be if Hamilton or Vettel did something like that.

Yes indeed. (Actually, it's an interesting piece of trivia - when Clark was crowned champion at the Nurburgring, he hadn't yet lost a championship race that year. He won six of the first seven, but missed Monaco because he was busy winning the 500. Forget Mercedes, that's dominance.)

 

That was a long time ago, of course. Nowadays it's unthinkable that an F1 driver would skip an F1 round for an alternative racing commitment. Even the Grand Prix in Baku, if it goes ahead, will stop Hulkenberg doing Le Mans. I appreciate that it's a tradition for the 500 and Monaco to be on the same day and as a motorsport fanatic for me that weekend is the highlight of the sporting year, but a part of me still thinks it's a shame we'll never see a current F1 driver giving it a go.

Edited by Spillage, 22 October 2015 - 17:28.

[Collombin]

Amid all the fawning over Clark, let's spare a thought for Phil Hill and AJ Foyt for their "2 out of 3 in the same year" achievements too.

[B Squared]

Amid all the fawning over Clark, let's spare a thought for Phil Hill and AJ Foyt for their "2 out of 3 in the same year" achievements too.

Foyt won two of the three in the 1967 season. Phil Hill did win the 1961 Le Mans 24 Hours and was the 1961 Formula One Driver's Champion, but Stirling Moss won the 1961 Monaco race over Phil's teammate Richie Ginther, with Phil coming home third.

[Collombin]

Yes I meant the WDC in Phil Hill's case, just as the WDC in Clark's case too. And us Moss fans know all about Monaco!

Incidentally, before my previous post is misinterpreted, there's nothing wrong with praising Clark. But in a triple crown thread, others are just as notable.

[stewie]

I don't care wether the Triple Crown is a real thing, or not, it is still damn cool if you win the blue riband events of 3 major, separate, racing series that are all completely different types and categories of racing.

[wj_gibson]

I so hope this happens.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

In Ensign's World of Brilliance, the Indy 500 and Le Mans 24 are World Championship rounds.  Toying with the Daytona 500 to kick the whole thing off as well.  Why restrict the WC to F1 alone?  It wasn't always like that.

 

It definitely wasn't. From the Vanderbilt Cup to the Tasman Cup, drivers were able to move between different sanctioned events and do what they wished. Mario Andretti won the Daytona 500, and he wasn't a regular NASCAR driver. Colin Chapman and his team went to Indy, and eventually won. Jimmy Clark was scheduled to race in the BOAC 1000 km sportscar race at Brands Hatch, chose to drive in a Formula 2 race at  Hockenheim, and sadly perished. But in the last few decades each discipline and series became more specialized and drivers were bound by contracts.

 

The days when drivers cross over series is now a very rare event, but still does happen, such as the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona or Bathurst. But for any Formula One driver to be released to actually race more than 20 times a year is now incredibly rare, because of the immense financial responsibilities by the teams and IMO many not wishing to see direct comparisons.

 

Black helmet with a white peak. Same driver, same engine source (Ford), same year, 1967.

 

 

[Collombin]

Again, Clark is being used as an example when he is far from the best choice. Others jumped around much more - did Clark race anything that wasn't a Lotus between the summers of 1963 and 1966? The ERA spin at Rouen doesn't count!

[Nemo1965]

If you were to aim for the crown, the hardest one to win would probably be Indy nowadays. Not so much because of the outright difficulty of winning that race, but more the necessity of gaining experience on ovals and having time for the race, which would likely mean a short-term move to America. Le Mans could overlap with a F1 career, anyone could follow Hulkenberg in testing the car and entering a prelim event, as long as the calendars permit it. You could see guys like Button and Alonso who've already won the Monaco Grand Prix doing Le Mans, either during or after their F1 career, but to enter the Indy 500 would probably need a free year.

 

I don't agree. In Le Mans and in F1 you have to be quite 'lucky' (for lack of a better word) to end up in one of the two cars that can win the race. In Indy the cars are much more equal because it is largely a one-spec series. That was very different in the days Clark won. There are more knowledgeable posters here, but out of the top of my head in the 60's the establishment at Indianapolis used regulations A LOT to diminish the chances of 'foreigners' (read: Europeans) to win the race. And still there were so many different cars driving around, with so many different characteristics that even the best driver and or/the most sophisticated car could be beaten.

 

The fact that Hill and Clark won at Indy and in F1 and at Le Mans in their days just trumps anything Montoya can achieve, in my book...

Edited by Nemo1965, 23 October 2015 - 08:31.

[ensign14]

Again, Clark is being used as an example when he is far from the best choice. Others jumped around much more - did Clark race anything that wasn't a Lotus between the summers of 1963 and 1966? The ERA spin at Rouen doesn't count!

 

He won the British Touring Car Title in a Cortina in 1964.  OK, it had a Lotus tweak, but...

 

He was also, I think, the only person ever to lead a Champcar race in a Vollstedt.  Think that was '67.
 

[Juan Kerr]

Yes indeed. (Actually, it's an interesting piece of trivia - when Clark was crowned champion at the Nurburgring, he hadn't yet lost a championship race that year. He won six of the first seven, but missed Monaco because he was busy winning the 500. Forget Mercedes, that's dominance.)

 

That was a long time ago, of course. Nowadays it's unthinkable that an F1 driver would skip an F1 round for an alternative racing commitment. Even the Grand Prix in Baku, if it goes ahead, will stop Hulkenberg doing Le Mans. I appreciate that it's a tradition for the 500 and Monaco to be on the same day and as a motorsport fanatic for me that weekend is the highlight of the sporting year, but a part of me still thinks it's a shame we'll never see a current F1 driver giving it a go.

I don't see the big deal about Huldenberg doing Le Mans again, he did it within the F1 season and won it. End of subject, he's already done it.

[Collombin]

He won the British Touring Car Title in a Cortina in 1964. OK, it had a Lotus tweak, but...

He was also, I think, the only person ever to lead a Champcar race in a Vollstedt. Think that was '67.

Sorry, I should have pointed out it was a rhetorical question, with the answer "no he didn't". I can imagine Marklar is writing a huge database mining program to check as we speak though!

I think Clark only drove non Lotus open wheelers on 2 occasions in his whole career - a Gemini once early on, and the Vollstedt near the end.

[Imateria]

I don't agree. In Le Mans and in F1 you have to be quite 'lucky' (for lack of a better word) to end up in one of the two cars that can win the race. In Indy the cars are much more equal because it is largely a one-spec series. That was very different in the days Clark won. There are more knowledgeable posters here, but out of the top of my head in the 60's the establishment at Indianapolis used regulations A LOT to diminish the chances of 'foreigners' (read: Europeans) to win the race. And still there were so many different cars driving around, with so many different characteristics that even the best driver and or/the most sophisticated car could be beaten.

 

The fact that Hill and Clark won at Indy and in F1 and at Le Mans in their days just trumps anything Montoya can achieve, in my book...

I actually agree with Fastcake, it's not the differences in the cars that's going to be the limiting factor but the highly specialised nature of oval racing. And despite it's near spec nature you still need to be in a Penske or Ganassi to have the best shot of winning, you can do it with one of the other teams but it's much more of an uphill struggle.

[Prost1997T]

Well even in the Dallara-Honda "spec" era the top teams used different components (witness the Penske-Ganassi domination of ovals, for example).

 

Recent Indy 500 winners:

 

2015 - Juan Pablo Montoya, Penske-Chevrolet

2014 - Ryan Hunter-Reay, Andretti-Honda

2013 - Tony Kanaan, KV-Chevrolet

2012 - Dario Franchitti, Ganassi-Honda

2011 - Dan Wheldon, Herta

 

The one thing in common there is all of those guys were considered strong oval racers in Indycar historically. Montoya is the best example since he won on multiple ovals in his rookie CART season.

[D28]

I confess to never hearing of this "Triple Crown" before, but it comes as no surprise that Graham Hill has won it. The more impressive feat, unique to him is the Graham Hill triple. WDC, Le Mans and Indy 500. That looks like his for the ages, now that Jacques Villeneuve is effectively retired, and Mario a bit long in the tooth for Le Mans.

Still whatever it is called, it would be an impressive boost to Montoya's racing resume, should he pull it off. Good luck Juan Pablo!

[jonpollak]

Juan just rubbished talk of a 2016 LeMans entry during the USGP rain fest qualy show on NBCSN.

 

Jp

[Risil]

Yeah he got somewhat robbed in 2003, but still... Jacques also could have won in 2008. Besides Graham Hill, Jochen Ridnt would have probably won it too. He won Le Mans in  1965 and F1 World Championship and Monaco in 1970.

 

Very few drivers made their way from Europe to race at the Indy 500 in the 1970s. And Rindt didn't exactly set the place on fire when he did visit the speedway. Think I remember Donald Davidson (Indy historian) mentioning Rindt as one of the Euro drivers in the 60s who never really clicked with the place.

[Collombin]

Rindt's qualifying run on a damp track is the stuff of legend, but yeah he hated the place.

[Prost1997T]

Ruled out for 2016, looks like 2017 and beyond is still a possibility: http://sportscar365....t-with-porsche/

[Victor_RO]

Ruled out for 2016, looks like 2017 and beyond is still a possibility: http://sportscar365....t-with-porsche/

 

Looks like that 2016 Penske contract was absolutely watertight. Still, opens the door for a quick youngster like Mitch Evans or Oliver Turvey in Hulk's old seat...

[Prost1997T]

Looks like that 2016 Penske contract was absolutely watertight

 

Flying back and forward during the mid-point of the season is less than ideal. Penske also tests during the Indycar season (yeah I know, that's actually allowed   )

[Glengavel]

Again, Clark is being used as an example when he is far from the best choice. Others jumped around much more - did Clark race anything that wasn't a Lotus between the summers of 1963 and 1966? The ERA spin at Rouen doesn't count!

 

Maybe if Clark had 'jumped about' he would have fared better - he could easily have partnered Gurney at Le Mans in 1967 for example. I wonder if Chapman's massive falling out with the organisers put a crimp in Clark's Le Mans ambitions? Clark in a GT40 - if only...

[D28]

Maybe if Clark had 'jumped about' he would have fared better - he could easily have partnered Gurney at Le Mans in 1967 for example. I wonder if Chapman's massive falling out with the organisers put a crimp in Clark's Le Mans ambitions? Clark in a GT40 - if only...

For whatever reason Clark was not included in Ford's massive development program for their GT effort. Bruce McLaren and other international drivers carried the ball, and the expertise of Clark was not really required in Ford's endurance effort. Their was a limit to even Ford's budget for international driver salaries. For 1967 Henry Ford wanted an American win at Le Mans, hence the pairing of Gurney and Foyt, by Shelby-American. Ford paid the bills, but the 1967 entries were farmed out to the private teams, Shelby, Holman & Moody, etc. Under these conditions it would not have been that easy for Clark to enter the race. Clark did race a NASCAR Ford Galaxie later that year, built by Holman & Moody, in a one off event, so his contract allowed Ford racing models. Le Mans however was Ford's priority race and Clark was just odd man out.

[whitewaterMkII]

Flying back and forward during the mid-point of the season is less than ideal. Penske also tests during the Indycar season (yeah I know, that's actually allowed   )

I doubt JPM will race 2016, but he may fly over to get familiarized with how it's done since they do have a break at that time in IC.

I would not be surprised if JPM becomes a one off driver for Indy in 2017 either, provided he no longer wants to race full time after his Penske contract is done in 2016.

[Risil]

Could they maybe delay the Le Mans 24 Hours till August?

[D28]

Could they maybe delay the Le Mans 24 Hours till August?

For a good enough reason they could. Massive protests caused the 1968 race to be delayed till Sept 28-29. I don't see it as applicable to this issue.though.

[LeClerc]

Juan just rubbished talk of a 2016 LeMans entry during the USGP rain fest qualy show on NBCSN.

 

Jp

An official denial. We all know what that means