139 replies to this topic

[paulb]

^ "Yahoo Grand Prix" is a briliant term that should get much use.

[Jim Thurman]

FYI: I live in Indiana. Yup, I'm 'merican.

My point, as always, is that we 'mericans are a fickle sort. And long story short F1 is a niche sport here. Period.

 

 

I don't feel Americans are any more fickle than, oh, say the British ;)  The media, perhaps ...but concur completely with the niche sport part. I think a lot of people here don't get, or don't realize, that it's over 1300 miles, err 2200 kilometers, from Los Angeles to Austin and over 1700 miles, err 2800 kilometers from New York to Austin. I wasn't calling for another US F1 GP, Iet alone 3 to 5 more, I was simply pointing out that from a population and geographic standpoint, it could be done. Obviously, there are plenty of other issues, which I also completely agree with.

[Jim Thurman]

Drive Willow, or even the Streets of Willow track (or the Horsethief)  and you will understand.  Excellent circuit.  Not going to have an F1 race.  It's private park that has been deemed a historical interest so there won't be much if any development.  They rent the track all year long for motorsport and automotive testing, movies and commercials.  It's almost a year long waiting list for the good dates.  It's wide, good elevation changes, fast.  It's a good drivers track.  Were F1 half as interested in the racing as they are the bling they'd want to race there.  Won't happen.

 

A couple of corrections here. Willow Springs isn't a private park and the historical point of interest is the track itself. That designation carries practically no weight at all as far as preventing any development, much like raceways that cite a "Grandfather Clause" in the feeble hopes of preventing development overwhelming them. It is a great track and place though. despite the spartan facilities (which remind anyone what most circuits were like in the 60s and 70s). The first permanent, purpose built road course in the United States.

 

Portland won't happen.  The locals would probably be supportive if they didn't have to pay for it.    The track is a city park on a protected wetlands.  Little if anything will be built there.  It's short, about two miles long though not too challenging.

 

The site used to be a community called Vanport that was essentially wiped out by a flood. Afterwards, the area was abandoned and cleared of buildings. They raced on the old street layout, which gave someone the idea to build a permanent raceway, thus PIR. There would be many problems and complaints over noise, which they've had to deal with for years just from the limited number of events they host.

[loki]

The Willow Springs complex is absolutely a private park.  I've raced there several times over the last 15 years on most of the circuits.  It's pretty rustic.  I like it.  F1 will never happen there.  I started going to PIR in 1991, racing there for about 5 years running long track with the Portland Karting Association and Northwest Gold Cup.  Logged at least a couple thousand miles there.  Even though I lived in Seattle I considered it my home track.  I learned to race there.  The reason it's a protected wetlands it because of the Vanport floods.  It's still an active flood basin.  I think the PDX locals would support having F1 as long as the city or state weren't paying for it.  i don't see anyone there (public or private) providing the funding for either the sanctioning fee or any sort of infrastructure (or even the city allowing it to be built).  During the heyday of the Rose Festival and the CART races it was quite the scene.  There are still many that would like to see that return but it's not going to happen.

[sjakie]

Ironically the 1988 extension of Laguna Seca was built to attract F1 when it became clear Detroit would not continue with F1. Downtown Phoenix got the nod instead...

[Risil]

The extension was in place in time for the US GP (motorcycles) in September 1988. Between MotoGP, CART, IMSA and (possible) F1, they had more than enough reason to extend the track.

[Risil]

I don't feel Americans are any more fickle than, oh, say the British ;)  The media, perhaps ...but concur completely with the niche sport part. I think a lot of people here don't get, or don't realize, that it's over 1300 miles, err 2200 kilometers, from Los Angeles to Austin and over 1700 miles, err 2800 kilometers from New York to Austin. I wasn't calling for another US F1 GP, Iet alone 3 to 5 more, I was simply pointing out that from a population and geographic standpoint, it could be done. Obviously, there are plenty of other issues, which I also completely agree with.

 

Whaddaya mean? I'm looking forward to when they move the British GP to Estonia. Paris of the Baltic, you know.

 

Incidentally I had no idea that Austin is further from New York than it is from Los Angeles. Maps do funny things with north/south distances.

[RA2]

 Fontana

[ChrisAttebery]

The area you're highlighting there drops off about 300' from the track surface. Not gonna happen.

 

 

There's enough space to expand Laguna Seca, add some more track to it, as in this picture. I really just want to see F1 cars go around the Corkscrew.

 

[loki]

 Fontana

ISC won't build the facilities or pay the sanctioning fee.  They like to make money when they host races, not pay money.   That's going to be the theme in the US, everyone is going to need to make money, not just FOM.  They lucked out with COTA, I don't see them being so lucky for the next one.

[RA2]

You don't have to make any changes at Fontana unlike the other circuits being discussed here. The road course can be extended with a longer oval section and the interior circuit  Tilke'd but that is hardly going to cost much in comparison to a street circuit or a revamping an existing circuit. Pit building, garages and a permanent grandstand for 70000 people already exists. And it is in LA not in the middle of nowhere.

 

Sanction Fee? Whoever plans to sanction a race in California can do the same for Fontana. Owners of the track need not be the promoters.    

[D28]

 

 

Sanction Fee? Whoever plans to sanction a race in California can do the same for Fontana. Owners of the track need not be the promoters.    

And that is the main question. Is there anyone willing to sanction a race in Cal, or is this just another diversion from Bernie, like so many others we have witnessed over the years.

[paulb]

You don't have to make any changes at Fontana unlike the other circuits being discussed here. The road course can be extended with a longer oval section and the interior circuit  Tilke'd but that is hardly going to cost much in comparison to a street circuit or a revamping an existing circuit. Pit building, garages and a permanent grandstand for 70000 people already exists. And it is in LA not in the middle of nowhere.

 

Sanction Fee? Whoever plans to sanction a race in California can do the same for Fontana. Owners of the track need not be the promoters.    

Its actually not in Louisiana; it's on the edge of the middle of nowhere outside of Los Angeles.

Edited by paulb, 29 October 2015 - 19:35.

[Risil]

Oh! Can we post the photos of 1940s steel mills again?

 

Yeah, downtown LA looked a bit different in the '40s. If you look closely you can see Raymond Chandler sharing a martini with Ronald Reagan.

Edited by Risil, 29 October 2015 - 18:30.

[loki]

You don't have to make any changes at Fontana unlike the other circuits being discussed here. The road course can be extended with a longer oval section and the interior circuit  Tilke'd but that is hardly going to cost much in comparison to a street circuit or a revamping an existing circuit. Pit building, garages and a permanent grandstand for 70000 people already exists. And it is in LA not in the middle of nowhere.

 

Sanction Fee? Whoever plans to sanction a race in California can do the same for Fontana. Owners of the track need not be the promoters.    

It's in the middle of nowhere, it's about an hour or so from LA in an industrial area in the suburbs.  Typcially ISC do not allow outside promoters for big races.  The garage, hospitality and pit complex is not designed to F1 or FIA spec. It's configured for stock cars where the garages are behind the pit lane.  It would require tens of millions of dollars to change.  I've raced the road circuit at Fontana. It would have to be completely rebuilt.  It's basically infield access roads that become the RV camp during Cup weeks.  That setup is similar to how all the other ISC and SMI rovals are configured.

 

There won't be a race at the ISC oval in Fontana.  Ever.

[Risil]

I remember watching video from a couple of AMA Superbike races at Fontana. Racy layout, but kinda basic and definitely not "F1".

[paulb]

The infield layout at Fontana is bland.

[Risil]

Tommy Hayden and Mat Mladin were battling the whole race and it went down to the last chicane! That's the only race I've ever seen there and it was a cracker!

[paulb]

Motorcycles are a different animal, IMHO. The transition they have to make from the banking into the infield is wicked.

 

The good thing about the infield is that you can pretty much see all of it from any vantage point.

[loki]

Tavo Hellmund told Will Buxton on the NBC qual show that "in a few weeks" he was going to announce an investment in another race.  When pressed he said it would be in North America.  He also indicated he was close to an investment with a current team on the grid.

[BRG]

He's really keen to throw his money away, isn't he?  Invest in a race AND a team!  Bernie must be delighted.

[Ensign]

I never saw a good CART race at Laguna Seca but plenty of good bike races. I don't think it is suitable for F1. I'd love to see it at Watkins Glen but it's never going to happen.

[D28]

He's really keen to throw his money away, isn't he?  Invest in a race AND a team!  Bernie must be delighted.

That is correct. Here is a link for NBC story of the proposed race, no mention of new team.

 

.http://motorsports.n...-north-america/

 

What  I cannot fathom is why these businessmen keep coming forward to invest in F1 in USA. Anyone know the last USGP to break even, let alone make a profit, for the promoter?  Tony George spent millions of the Hulman fortune on upgrading IMS and promoting the GP, but never showed a profit on his investment. This was partly responsible for his sisters finally outing him from the  IMS CEO position.

[Fastcake]

That is correct. Here is a link for NBC story of the proposed race, no mention of new team.

 

.http://motorsports.n...-north-america/

 

What  I cannot fathom is why these businessmen keep coming forward to invest in F1 in USA. Anyone know the last USGP to break even, let alone make a profit, for the promoter?  Tony George spent millions of the Hulman fortune on upgrading IMS and promoting the GP, but never showed a profit on his investment. This was partly responsible for his sisters finally outing him from the  IMS CEO position.

 

I don't think any Grand Prix anywhere breaks even, except maybe Monaco. You'll have to be a fool to give your money to Bernie and expect a return.

[GreenMachine]

The area you're highlighting there drops off about 300' from the track surface. Not gonna happen.

Gyan, on 24 Oct 2015 - 14:37, said:



There's enough space to expand Laguna Seca, add some more track to it, as in this picture. I really just want to see F1 cars go around the Corkscrew.




oabg2An.jpg?1

100m drop?  Imagine reinventing the Corkscrew over that   If I can't get F1 cars down the Dipper, I want that!

 

All joking aside, that would be a pretty trivial engineering job, and with a little imagination and ingenuity that elevation change could produce some great viewing opportunities and a potentially fascinating track.

 

 

[ddebrunner]

After some thought, A San Francisco backdrop Gp would have mass appeal on the left coast.

Yahoo Grand Prix of Oakland? 

 

Around lake Merritt, or along Skyline blvd.

 

Of course we have no money in Oakland, and isn't the prime reason for any GP to give Bernie more money!

[BoschKurve]

Laguna is a great motorcycle venue.

 

Anything beyond GT cars is too much for the circuit.

[loki]

That is correct. Here is a link for NBC story of the proposed race, no mention of new team.

 

.http://motorsports.n...-north-america/

 

What  I cannot fathom is why these businessmen keep coming forward to invest in F1 in USA. Anyone know the last USGP to break even, let alone make a profit, for the promoter?  Tony George spent millions of the Hulman fortune on upgrading IMS and promoting the GP, but never showed a profit on his investment. This was partly responsible for his sisters finally outing him from the  IMS CEO position.

He didn't say it was going to be a new team, he said that it was potentially an investment in a team that is currently on the grid.  

 

Compared to what George did profit wise with IMS and specifically the 500, the money he spent on F1 is a drop in the bucket.   It was the tire debacle that sealed the deal for the GP not to return.

[AustinF1]

Manor.

 

There was a Motorsport.com story a while back about Hellmund and a group including James Carney looking at buying or investing in Manor.

 

http://www.motorspor...t-could-happen/

 

That's not to say they couldn't be looking elsewhere now, but that's the original story.

Edited by AustinF1, 02 November 2015 - 04:27.

[whitewaterMkII]

I never saw a good CART race at Laguna Seca but plenty of good bike races. I don't think it is suitable for F1. I'd love to see it at Watkins Glen but it's never going to happen.

Happily I was at the Corkscrew exit for 'The Pass', unfortunately I was also there when Rodriguez went off. 

Bad things can happen at Laguna Seca. Ask Oriol.

One of my favorite parts of Laguna Seca race weekend was staying in Monterey (grub and history) and doing Hwy 1 on the Monday after the race, that was a carshow/bikeshow in itself.

[lustigson]

With Canada, the US, Brazil, and now Mexico in the proper time zones, there's already something for F1 to work from for/with the US audience. Perhaps one or two more races in either North or South America could do, e.g. Argentina or indeed a second race in the USA.

 

Now if there would only be an American team... oh, right.  

[D28]

 

Compared to what George did profit wise with IMS and specifically the 500, the money he spent on F1 is a drop in the bucket.   It was the tire debacle that sealed the deal for the GP not to return.

I am thinking of his investment in the infield circuit, new facilities for F1 standards, and so one, that must amount to more than a drop in the bucket. This was for a one week annual use, though now I understand MotoGP uses the new circuit. I don't know the size of his original investment, or the size of his family fortune, but it must have been substantial.. George's spending on IRL and other projects also was substantial and helped lead to his departure as CEO/Preident IMS..  F1 certainly cost him a sizable amount of money.

[Vettelari]

CALIFORNIA?

 

No.

 

One word.

 

TALLADEGA!

 

2.66 miles of high banked AWESOMENESS!

 

Boogity, boogity, boogity, Jean Gerard is coming for you, Ricky Bobby!

[loki]

I am thinking of his investment in the infield circuit, new facilities for F1 standards, and so one, that must amount to more than a drop in the bucket. This was for a one week annual use, though now I understand MotoGP uses the new circuit. I don't know the size of his original investment, or the size of his family fortune, but it must have been substantial.. George's spending on IRL and other projects also was substantial and helped lead to his departure as CEO/Preident IMS..  F1 certainly cost him a sizable amount of money.

The amount spend on the circuit upgrade is a drop in the bucket compare to what's been lost in revenue from the 500 alone.  At the time the cost was stated to be in the range of US$30 mil (in late 90s dollars).  The garages were the big cost.  For many if not most of the races there were more than 100k in attendance, including 185k in 2001 after the 9/11 attacks and 225k at the first event.  Counting the impact to local businesses from the fall of the 500 it's well over a billion dollars.  The cost of running the IRL against CART and Champ Car cost more than the build for F1.  It's estimated that the IRL cost the family around US$200 million from inception to the aquistion of Champ Car.  Crippling the cash cow is what caused him to lose the gig, F1 was only a small component.

[D28]

The amount spend on the circuit upgrade is a drop in the bucket compare to what's been lost in revenue from the 500 alone.  At the time the cost was stated to be in the range of US$30 mil (in late 90s dollars).  The garages were the big cost.  For many if not most of the races there were more than 100k in attendance, including 185k in 2001 after the 9/11 attacks and 225k at the first event.  Counting the impact to local businesses from the fall of the 500 it's well over a billion dollars.  The cost of running the IRL against CART and Champ Car cost more than the build for F1.  It's estimated that the IRL cost the family around US$200 million from inception to the aquistion of Champ Car.  Crippling the cash cow is what caused him to lose the gig, F1 was only a small component.

I will take your word for it, I read of sums over $60 M for the F1 upgrade, but that was only on a blog,  and definitely not a number to swear by.  George really did go through a pile of family money on other things. A shame really, as I thought (hoped) in the beginning that the USGP might find a permanent home at IMS. While not a perfect circuit, the facility and location had a great deal  going for it. Unfortunately the 2005 fiasco probably doomed the race as much as anything.

While I still don't believe a 2nd USGP will occur, that these are familiar tactics to pressure Austin, this promoter knows Bernie very well.

One drawback from a US marketing standpoint, is that the current F1 product arguably is the weakest in recent history.

[whitewaterMkII]

The numbers are all across the board. Considering that the F1 inception coincided with new stands, a new Pagoda, new garage and a new track, I would imagine it being somewhere north of 60 mil, if you also count in the loss of a moneymaking PGA event, and the FIA sanctioning fees the costs to IMS must have been horrendous. 

[BoschKurve]

It's important to note that MotoGP is no longer returning to IMS. 2015 was the final race to be held there.

 

Leaves just the 500 and the Brickyard 400 now.

 

Not sure what the financial situation there is these days since even the attendance at the 500 is suspect now.

 

Just thinking about the entire debacle that Tony George caused is enough to have me downing a 6-pack in no time.

[whitewaterMkII]

It's important to note that MotoGP is no longer returning to IMS. 2015 was the final race to be held there.

 

Leaves just the 500 and the Brickyard 400 now.

 

Not sure what the financial situation there is these days since even the attendance at the 500 is suspect now.

 

Just thinking about the entire debacle that Tony George caused is enough to have me downing a 6-pack in no time.

I think they are still doing the IndyCar road race too?

[JacnGille]

CALIFORNIA?

 

No.

 

One word.

 

TALLADEGA!

 

2.66 miles of high banked AWESOMENESS!

 

Boogity, boogity, boogity, Jean Gerard is coming for you, Ricky Bobby!

Talladega has/had a great road course that included the banked oval al la Daytona.

[BoschKurve]

I think they are still doing the IndyCar road race too?

Yeah they still have got that. Kind of is fascinating how empty that place sits for most of the year outside of May, and a few days in August.

 

At least to the best of my knowledge anyway.