20 replies to this topic

[doc knutsen]

I just picked up a MotorSport Collector's Special illustrated magazine dealing with the Sixties, featuring some "rare and unseen" photographs. The photos and the captions are indeed lovely and very evocative, but there is one sideways shot of wee Jimmy in a Team Lotus chassis, allegedly at  Monaco 1962, that bothers me a little bit. The reason is, the car looks like a Twenty-Four and it has got stack exhaust pipes, and the BRM logo can just be seen on the lower part of the engine cam box. I cannot recall Team Lotus running a works car with a BRM engine in the Monaco GP, but of course this is relying on my memory only...at the time, I had yet to turn thirteen, and I was an avid Graham Hill fan and an ORMA member  (associate member only, thus a black and chrome lapel badge, rather than the red, white and blue pukka badge for pukka members...I could not afford the full membership as I was saving for a hot camshaft for my 1172 Ford engine out of the Prefect I planned to turn into an 1172 racer with my Dad,,,) So, what's the story with a works Lotus-BRM Twenty-Four at Monaco?

 

 

[lyntonh]

By chance, I have just finished reading Cedric Selzer's book about his time with Lotus.

 

On page 65, in the story of the Monaco weekend in 1962,

he mentions that they had three cars at Monaco that year, with a 24 climax, the new 25 climax,

& the 24 BRM brought over late by Bob Pearman.

 

On Friday, for the early practice, it was raining.

 

"The early practice session was a washout, to say the least, but at least the new BRM 24 had a run with both drivers testing the car."

 

Get the book. It's worth a read, & reasonably priced.

[Barry Boor]

Can only be a practice shot, Doc. Jimmy never raced a B.R.M. powered car in a Grand Prix.

What number is on the car?

[Tim Murray]

The car was chassis 950.

[Barry Boor]

Tim, according to Doug in Theme Lotus, team swapped the chassis numbers of 949 and 950 when they owned the chassis, and 949 was a Climax car.

Thus it follows that the B.R.M. engined car must have been 949 if it was run by the factory but became 950 when it went to Fillipinetti.

I am inclined to ask, why did they do that?

[Glengavel]

Can only be a practice shot, Doc. Jimmy never raced a B.R.M. powered car in a Grand Prix.

What number is on the car?

 

erm...

[Roger Clark]

 Jimmy never raced a B.R.M. powered car in a Grand Prix.
 

V8, of course, but he did drive the 24-BRM in a non-championship race.

Edited by Roger Clark, 25 October 2015 - 10:33.

[nicanary]

erm...

Quite. 1966 and all that......

[Barry Boor]

Yes, of course, but we are talking about the 1.5 litre era.

[Roger Clark]

Tim, according to Doug in Theme Lotus, team swapped the chassis numbers of 949 and 950 when they owned the chassis, and 949 was a Climax car.

Thus it follows that the B.R.M. engined car must have been 949 if it was run by the factory but became 950 when it went to Fillipinetti.

I am inclined to ask, why did they do that?

As i understand it, 948 was the Team Lotus 24, raced by Clark in the early season non-championship races, then by Taylor until it was written off at Spa.  The BRM engined car appeared at Monaco so it would be logical for that to be numbered 949.  A new 24-Climax turned up at Reims which was apparently numbered 950 at the time.  

 

Possible reasons for the number swap are to make the customer think they were getting a different car or to hoodwink Her Majesty's Customs and Excise. I'm sure Tam Lotus would not be involved in such skullduggery. 

[rudi]

Can only be a practice shot, Doc. Jimmy never raced a B.R.M. powered car in a Grand Prix.

What number is on the car?

 

#20

[Doug Nye]

There is always the argument where Team Lotus Type 24s are concerned about what was each individual car known as on one particular weekend as opposed to another.  Jim Endruweit's hand-written contemporary team record for the 1962 Monaco GP includes the following line:

 

(Date) 1-6-62 - (chassis) 949 - (engine) BRM - (gearbox) Colotti T34 - (driver) Taylor - (front tyres) 5.00 (width), D12 (compound), 32 (lbs psi inflation pressure) - (rear tyres) 6.50 D12 30 - (front dampers) set at '20' - (rear dampers) set at '15' - (notes) "Not used in race".

 

The Type 24-Climax with ZF gearbox that Trevor drove on race day is recorded in the same document as chassis 948.

 

DCN

[Henk Vasmel]

One of the 24s had been used before Monaco, from Pau through to Zandvoort (spare) as an FPF engined car (due to non-delivery of the BRM V8 engine). In my notes I had that one as 950 which continued life as a BRM engined car from Monaco with that same number. However, DCN, in The Story of Lotus, 1961-1971, describes the Monaco spare as a brand new car.

So, did 950 indeed appear before 949 which we now consider the correct number for the BRM engined car? Or was it 949 all along, being re-engined for Monaco?

 

At what moment did the reversal of chassis numbers take place, at the moment the car went to Filipinetti, or maybe before that.

 

I would use chassis numbers 949[950] and 950[949] from then on, indicating that the car would still be 949, but with the identity of 950 (and v.v.) on the chassis number plate, the sqare brackets suggesting the shape of that plate.

[Doug Nye]

Perhaps the answer to that is 'why not'?

 

DCN

[Glengavel]

V8, of course, but he did drive the 24-BRM in a non-championship race.

 

Which race was that? I can only find five races in which he drove a 24, and they were all Climax powered and all the same chassis.

[Roger Clark]

Which race was that? I can only find five races in which he drove a 24, and they were all Climax powered and all the same chassis.

Reims

[2F-001]

Roger - apologies, I've got lost here, we are talking about 1962, are we?

So that would be the 24-BRM which I understand Clark took over from Peter Arundell?

Some books and records seem to overlook Clark's involvement in the race after his 25 expired; I assume that's were any confusion arises.

 

One account I've seen (possibly one of DCN's, I don't recall), suggests that Arundell's car was itself already ailing but as he was scheduled to drive in a following race he was 'stood down' to prepare for that. 

[Glengavel]

Reims

 

Thanks, didn't spot that one.

[Roger Clark]

Roger - apologies, I've got lost here, we are talking about 1962, are we?

So that would be the 24-BRM which I understand Clark took over from Peter Arundell?

Some books and records seem to overlook Clark's involvement in the race after his 25 expired; I assume that's were any confusion arises.

 

One account I've seen (possibly one of DCN's, I don't recall), suggests that Arundell's car was itself already ailing but as he was scheduled to drive in a following race he was 'stood down' to prepare for that. 

DSJ said that Arundell came into the pits when the lead from the fuel feed to the fuel pressure gauge came adrift. Clark's 25 had already retired.  Arundell was due to drive in the Junior race so it gave clark a chance to find out whether the 24-BRM would ever be any good.

[group7]

I just picked up a MotorSport Collector's Special illustrated magazine dealing with the Sixties, featuring some "rare and unseen" photographs. The photos and the captions are indeed lovely and very evocative, but there is one sideways shot of wee Jimmy in a Team Lotus chassis, allegedly at  Monaco 1962, that bothers me a little bit. The reason is, the car looks like a Twenty-Four and it has got stack exhaust pipes, and the BRM logo can just be seen on the lower part of the engine cam box. I cannot recall Team Lotus running a works car with a BRM engine in the Monaco GP, but of course this is relying on my memory only...at the time, I had yet to turn thirteen, and I was an avid Graham Hill fan and an ORMA member  (associate member only, thus a black and chrome lapel badge, rather than the red, white and blue pukka badge for pukka members...I could not afford the full membership as I was saving for a hot camshaft for my 1172 Ford engine out of the Prefect I planned to turn into an 1172 racer with my Dad,,,) So, what's the story with a works Lotus-BRM Twenty-Four at Monaco?

can any one tell me where I might find a copy of the magazine doc knutsen mentions in the first line of his post. I've googled around with no luck. any leads. is it something current ? or out of print ?

 

thank you, Mike (group7) in Canada

Edited by group7, 03 November 2015 - 02:31.

[Tim Murray]

It's called '60s In Focus'. Alan Cox gave it a glowing review in the books thread a month or so ago:

http://shop.motorspo...OC/60s-in-focus

ETA: also discussed in one of the Motor Sport threads, in this and subsequent posts:

Good news is that Motor Sport are going to be producing some collections of photos from the LAT archive and the first volume is available for pre-order
http://shop.motorspo...aign=60sinfocus
Talking to a Motor Sport staff man at the weekend, he tells me that they have come up with a lot of fascinating stuff that hasn't been published before, and hasn't even been catalogued in the archive
Looks like a 'must have', and at a soothing price

Edited by Tim Murray, 03 November 2015 - 04:59.