546 replies to this topic

[Retrofly]

A driver would be trying not to put too much steering input at that moment to avoid spinning the car on a damp track.

 

Also the increase angle on the wheels causes more under steer, or at least cause the car to under steer at lower speeds.

Essentially its pointless steering more once you have under steer, it just means you will have too much lock on once the front tiers grip again.

Edited by Retrofly, 27 October 2015 - 12:34.

[Brackets]

Considering there's a multitude of posts on what Rosberg should have done =  I'm not entitled to insinuate that if Lewis
crowds and hits a non teammate it will lead to worse than what happens with Rosberg?
 
  Get over yourself please.

This "multitude of posts" contains the advice to fall back and do the switch-back. You know, just like HAM did as recently as the last GP.

Please explain how this results in a crash.

Everybody crowds. This includes ROS. It never ends in tears (*).


(*) Crying to the press afterwards excluded.

[Riverside]

This "multitude of posts" contains the advice to fall back and do the switch-back. You know, just like HAM did as recently as the last GP.

Please explain how this results in a crash.

Everybody crowds. This includes ROS. It never ends in tears (*).


(*) Crying to the press afterwards excluded.

 

You answered to a post say that if Hamilton crowds another driver other than Rosberg - the  result could be a crash.   Obviously,  the risk is much higher with a championship rival on another team.. and you are here to say that is not correct?  Seriously now...

[Riverside]

Some people gotta hate.  

 

      Ohhh,  the hate card.  So much merit in that...not.  

[Tapz63]

Haven't finished reading the thread yet so apologies if this has already been brought up. I just wanted to point out that if Rosberg had just turned in harder it would have been quite similar to the SC restart at Hungary where Hamilton understeered into Ricciardo, with Hamilton again getting penalised I would imagine.

I do not want to see penalties for these kind of things where essentially nothing happened but I do think that it was a clumsy move. It is impossible to tell but I do not believe he did it on purpose. If he did then it was definitely dirty and I would be dissapointed in him.

[DrivenF1]

I just want to reiterate a few facts:

• Turning the steering wheel more doesn't result in more actual turn when the car starts to understeer/slide
• Hamilton ran wide multiple times during the race proving he had difficulty on that bend, it's a really horrible corner
• Hamilton and Wolff state that it wasn't intentional and that it was an error
• There were much worse incidents which didn't result in a penalty in this race alone

I see this incident very simply:

 

Hamilton had the inside -> defended the corner like he is entitled to do -> understeered and made an error which pushed him wider than intended -> knocked Rosberg off

 

In summary:

• Error from Hamilton which led to pushing a rival wide on one corner (no damage to either car)
• Poor racecraft from Rosberg, the incident was fairly predictable given the situation
• Penalty not even vaguely close, it was a racing incident and the fans have claimed multiple times they want drivers to fight 100% and get into these type of battles

I see why people blame Hamilton but 'dirty' is too far and a penalty is far too far. Some people are welding the predictable Hamilton hate card although a lot of the people being critical of Hamilton are not out of line. I understand their opinion. In my opinion, Hamilton was at fault for the incident but Rosberg was at fault for losing all those places. Both culpable.

 

Do we really want to stop drivers fighting on track when the result is minor incidents. Let's enjoy close wheel-to-wheel racing 

[Marklar]

I just want to reiterate a few facts:

• Turning the steering wheel more doesn't result in more actual turn when the car starts to understeer/slide
• Hamilton ran wide multiple times during the race proving he had difficulty on that bend, it's a really horrible corner
• Hamilton and Wolff state that it wasn't intentional and that it was an error
• There were much worse incidents which didn't result in a penalty in this race alone

I see this incident very simply:

 

Hamilton had the inside -> defended the corner like he is entitled to do -> understeered and made an error which pushed him wider than intended -> knocked Rosberg off

 

In summary:

• Error from Hamilton which led to pushing a rival wide on one corner (no damage to either car)
• Poor racecraft from Rosberg, the incident was fairly predictable given the situation
• Penalty not even vaguely close, it was a racing incident and the fans have claimed multiple times they want drivers to fight 100% and get into these type of battles

I see why people blame Hamilton but 'dirty' is too far and a penalty is far too far. Some people are welding the predictable Hamilton hate card although a lot of the people being critical of Hamilton are not out of line. I understand their opinion. In my opinion, Hamilton was at fault for the incident but Rosberg was at fault for losing all those places. Both culpable.

 

Do we really want to stop drivers fighting on track when the result is minor incidents. Let's enjoy close wheel-to-wheel racing 

This

[McLaren]

The way I see it, I do think Hamilton intended too push Rosberg out slightly...but not by the margin that he did. This could just be down to a lack of judgement when considering the cold tyres and wet track etc..

[phrank]

A mistake that our three times World Champion keeps making and always turn out to be in his advantage.

[robefc]

A mistake that our three times World Champion keeps making and always turn out to be in his advantage.

 

Really? Other examples? The only one I can think (but worse) is Hungary and that didn't exactly work out for him.

[phrank]

Japanese Grand Prix

[P123]

Real examples.

[robefc]

Japanese Grand Prix

 

I didn't see any mistake there...

[phrank]

Wow, this thread is just going around in circles. It's pretty much become group therapy for non-Hamilton fans to air their frustrations. If that's the dirtiest move you've seen in F1 then you haven't been watching very long. 

At least you admit it was dirty

[OO7]

I've just seen a replay of the start from Hamilton's cockpit on BBC's iPlayer and to me it is clear Lewis understeers into Nico.  As he approaches T1 he makes an initial shallow steering input of about 45 degrees to the left and the car moves in this direction.  Nico's car on the right moves closer to his and he increases the steering input to 90 degrees.  At this point the car clearly understeers and this can verified by referencing the red 'Fly Emirates' advertising hoardings ahead.  

 

On initial turn in, there is a steady change of heading as the car turns left.  As Hamilton increases the steering angle to 90 degrees in what looks like an attempt to avoid contact, the rate of heading change drops to almost zero for a moment (the 'Fly Emirates' hoardings appear to stop moving across the screen).

As Hamilton's car slows further it begins to turn more, there is contact between the two and his car understeers briefly again.

Edited by OO7, 27 October 2015 - 14:59.

[MasterOfCoin]

Seems like Bottas also lost control and got into Alonso in the 1st corner, but it doesn't seem to have the sort of 'traction' pardon the pun, as the Nico - Lewis incident.  

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 27 October 2015 - 15:01.

[Mercstar]

Just my two cents on the "incident": I would only call a move "dirty" if it explicitly breaks the rules, given that wasn't the case Lewis was within his rights to squeeze Nico (assuming he did do it intentionally), we have seen this particular move hundreds of times where the driver on the outside gets run out of road, its tough, really tough and on the limit but within the rules.

 

Nico just needs to man up and quit the winging, he needs to stop putting himself in such a vulnerable position in the first place, in a recent interview he said "a leopard doesn't change its spots" referring to Lewis's style of racing, given he already knows the outcome if he finds himself on the outside of Lewis it makes his race-craft even more woeful, why persist around the outside and potentially loose multiple positions instead of conceding the corner and trying something different; the cut-back in the case of Austin. 

Edited by Mercstar, 27 October 2015 - 15:38.

[rickstein]

Seen that move about a thousand times in Karting, and all the racing formulas and it has been done by Nico on numerous occasions, and by every F1 driver.. Its a default and a given and a part of racing. So get off your high horses or be fair and equal and start opening up threads on every other instance of this overtaking method...

Edited by rickstein, 27 October 2015 - 15:48.

[Retrofly]

It doesn't even need to be wet to understeer into T1

 

https://youtu.be/NdgeYIE8MmY?t=22s

[Ricardo F1]

 

 

Rosberg being ahead mid corner around the outside definitely gives Hamilton no right to move to the outside where another car is no matter if he personally thinks he has that right or not. 

 

You know no matter how many times you try and repeat yourself to defend your position one day you'll look at the screen capture and realize Rosberg isn't ahead unless the track is headed to Dallas not up the road to their left.

[Tapz63]

It doesn't even need to be wet to understeer into T1

https://youtu.be/NdgeYIE8MmY?t=22s

We know that cars understeer. Please show me one person actually that has disputed that.

[pliskinrob]

Japanese Grand Prix

 

Go watch any JGTC/SuperGT race from the past 15 years at Suzuka (Pokka 1000), the move HAM pulled into T1/T2 is perfectly acceptable. 

 

I don't understand how people can write Formula 1 off as dead due to a lack of close racing/passing, but totally flip their **** when someone has the audacity to pull off moves.

[Jon83]

Wow, this thread is just going around in circles. It's pretty much become group therapy for non-Hamilton fans to air their frustrations. If that's the dirtiest move you've seen in F1 then you haven't been watching very long. 

 

I'm not 'anti-Hamilton'

 

I don't recall seeing anybody saying it was the dirtiest move they'd ever seen.

 

[Tapz63]

Seen that move about a thousand times in Karting, and all the racing formulas and it has been done by Nico on numerous occasions, and by every F1 driver.. Its a default and a given and a part of racing. So get off your high horses or be fair and equal and start opening up threads on every other instance of this overtaking method...

But when contact is made and a driver is forced off the track we have seen in F1 that this has resulted in penalties in the past. Whether it was done intentionally or otherwise. I do not agree with every decision they make but these types of moves are usually looked at if between two drivers of opposing teams.

And it is getting ridiculous this paranoia that Fans have when a topic is opened discussing their favourite driver. Yes we all know some people are here just to bash, but they stand out quite clearly and should be ignored or directly quoted, this casting of all posters not sharing your view as just being here to pick on them (whoever your favourite driver may be), are quite ignorant.

[MonsterMax63]

Wouldn't say it was 'dirty' just unnecessary - Lewis does not need to resort to that sort of thing. Part of me thinks that if Michael Schumacher did that, they'd be much more of a fuss made.  

[Ricardo F1]

Wouldn't say it was 'dirty' just unnecessary - Lewis does not need to resort to that sort of thing. Part of me thinks that if Michael Schumacher did that, they'd be much more of a fuss made.  

Resort to what?  Resorting to something implies intent, there was no intention to hit Rosberg.

[MasterOfCoin]

But when contact is made and a driver is forced off the track we have seen in F1 that this has resulted in penalties in the past. Whether it was done intentionally or otherwise. I do not agree with every decision they make but these types of moves are usually looked at if between two drivers of opposing teams.

And it is getting ridiculous this paranoia that Fans have when a topic is opened discussing their favourite driver. Yes we all know some people are here just to bash, but they stand out quite clearly and should be ignored or directly quoted, this casting of all posters not sharing your view as just being here to pick on them (whoever your favourite driver may be), are quite ignorant.

Difference being not on the the first turn of the 1st lap. and i hope it stays this way it makes the racing more interesting. 

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 27 October 2015 - 16:33.

[Retrofly]

Wouldn't say it was 'dirty' just unnecessary - Lewis does not need to resort to that sort of thing. Part of me thinks that if Michael Schumacher did that, they'd be much more of a fuss made.  

 

How can there be more of a fuss than there already is

 

Its like the top story here, reddit, BBC, Autosport, Facebook lol

[anbeck]

Rosberg needs to grow some b*lls for the first corner, or he'll always wind up second. Japan and US this year showed it. Schumi or Senna would have been more aggressive, although that is obviously a reputation that you have to build over a few races/seasons, and which will probably include some crashes. But in the end, that's a necessary ingredient if you want to become WDC.

 

Maybe Spa last year was a turning point. Senna and Schumi would have said "That was clearly my corner, if Hammo runs his front wing off, that's his problem."

 

Hamilton will never again hesitate to try a manoevre, because it appears that Rosberg will avoid a crash. 

[rhukkas]

Senna and Schumacher most likely would've conceded the corner because they are smart racers... that is of course unless they wanted to deliberately initiate contact.

[Pimpwerx]

Rosberg needs to grow some b*lls for the first corner, or he'll always wind up second. Japan and US this year showed it. Schumi or Senna would have been more aggressive, although that is obviously a reputation that you have to build over a few races/seasons, and which will probably include some crashes. But in the end, that's a necessary ingredient if you want to become WDC.

Maybe Spa last year was a turning point. Senna and Schumi would have said "That was clearly my corner, if Hammo runs his front wing off, that's his problem."

Hamilton will never again hesitate to try a manoevre, because it appears that Rosberg will avoid a crash.

Michael would've gone for the slingshot. He's done it many times in his career. He was hard nosed, but not stupid. He wouldn't risk damaging his car on the first turn of a race. Not unless the title was on the line and it was his championship rival involved. I can't vouch for Senna. I didn't see enough of him. PEACE.

[MasterOfCoin]

Rosberg needs to grow some b*lls for the first corner, or he'll always wind up second. Japan and US this year showed it. Schumi or Senna would have been more aggressive, although that is obviously a reputation that you have to build over a few races/seasons, and which will probably include some crashes. But in the end, that's a necessary ingredient if you want to become WDC.

 

Maybe Spa last year was a turning point. Senna and Schumi would have said "That was clearly my corner, if Hammo runs his front wing off, that's his problem."

 

Hamilton will never again hesitate to try a manoevre, because it appears that Rosberg will avoid a crash. 

Nico doesn't need to grow anything all he has to do is fix his starts, when his starts are good like in Austria and Russia he races fine. he also needs to take a page out of the same two races, and do as Lewis by backing off and get in line when he's out of position.

[Marklar]

Seems like Bottas also lost control and got into Alonso in the 1st corner, but it doesn't seem to have the sort of 'traction' pardon the pun, as the Nico - Lewis incident.

It was Massa. It was an different situation. Much worse imo than than this kids stuff here, but it is more interesting, thats why we have 11+ pages....

Edited by Marklar, 27 October 2015 - 17:05.

[FrontWing]

I'm not 'anti-Hamilton'

 

I don't recall seeing anybody saying it was the dirtiest move they'd ever seen.

 

There been any other moves that have generated so many pages?

 

I don't know why Nico keeps trying to go around the outside, Hamilton will rarely try that on Nico. It seems they have intra-team team rules about first corner contact, but once Hamilton gets level on the inside into a corner he's not going to pull out of it. Nico either has to sort his starts out or try and make sure he covers it of like he did in Russia.

Edited by FrontWing, 27 October 2015 - 17:13.

[Jon83]

There been any other moves that have generated so many pages?

 

Not sure but again, nobody on here is claiming it is the dirtiest move they have ever seen, like you suggested.

 

I'm here to talk about the incident. I couldn't care less about who was involved. If Seb or Kimi had done the same to each other or somebody else, my view wouldn't be different.

 

Trying to make out this is 'anti-Hamilton' hysteria is a pretty poor argument to be honest.

[johnmhinds]

There been any other moves that have generated so many pages?

Pretty much every racing move that involves any contact gets discussed to death on here in the same way.

And it always turns into fanboys vs fanboys like this.

[Riverside]

Wow, this thread is just going around in circles. It's pretty much become group therapy for non-Hamilton fans to air their frustrations. If that's the dirtiest move you've seen in F1 then you haven't been watching very long. 

 

  Now you are just exaggerating.  

 

 

Not sure but again, nobody on here is claiming it is the dirtiest move they have ever seen, like you suggested.

 

I'm here to talk about the incident. I couldn't care less about who was involved. If Seb or Kimi had done the same to each other or somebody else, my view wouldn't be different.

 

Trying to make out this is 'anti-Hamilton' hysteria is a pretty poor argument to be honest.

 

  The bolded part .....

[Mila]

It was Massa. It was an different situation.

 

Yup. It was FM who lost it under braking, not because he misjudged the track conditions, but because he was getting pinched in the middle. VB went for a gap that closed too quickly for him, and it was RG who he clipped. That gap might have worked for him if it wasn't for cars avoiding the spinning FM.

 

One way or another, LH was the only driver to come remotely close to whatever you want to call what he did. It's bizarre that a guy on the cusp of his third WDC would intently dick around like that, but that's the way it appears.

Edited by Mila, 27 October 2015 - 17:21.

[Riverside]

Not an argument, just my opinion. You can guess which posters will be venting in this thread.

 

 Who's venting?  Seems you are, in a big way.

 

 AS for this many pages on a move ...  Do you remember Rosberg / Ricciardo?    Simple enough?

[FrontWing]

  Now you are just exaggerating.  

 

 

 

  The bolded part .....

 

Thanks, but I read it the first time, no need to bold it for me. 

 

Cheers though

[Riverside]

Thanks, but I read it the first time, no need to bold it for me. 

 

Cheers though

 

  I think you do need to re-read the entire thread... there are as many comments about Rosberg, how he should drive,  his fault, his tears,

his balls... name it.   Yet you are to say this is group therapy for non-Hamilton fans?  This is so tiresome FW ... talk about the incident...

[FrontWing]

  I think you do need to re-read the entire thread... there are as many comments about Rosberg, how he should drive,  his fault, his tears,

his balls... name it.   Yet you are to say this is group therapy for non-Hamilton fans?  This is so tiresome FW ... talk about the incident...

 

Alright River, sorry that's annoyed you so much, I'll delete it before we derail the thread. 

[Jon83]

Not an argument, just my opinion. You can guess which posters will be venting in this thread.

 

No actually I can't. Please enlighten me.

 

I very much doubt the 207 people who voted here that felt Hamilton's move was dirty are the 'anti-Hamilton' types which you'd like them to be. Reducing the debate to this kind of rubbish is childish nonsense.
 

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I just want to reiterate a few facts:

• Turning the steering wheel more doesn't result in more actual turn when the car starts to understeer/slide
• Hamilton ran wide multiple times during the race proving he had difficulty on that bend, it's a really horrible corner
• Hamilton and Wolff state that it wasn't intentional and that it was an error
• There were much worse incidents which didn't result in a penalty in this race alone

I see this incident very simply:

 

Hamilton had the inside -> defended the corner like he is entitled to do -> understeered and made an error which pushed him wider than intended -> knocked Rosberg off

 

In summary:

• Error from Hamilton which led to pushing a rival wide on one corner (no damage to either car)
• Poor racecraft from Rosberg, the incident was fairly predictable given the situation
• Penalty not even vaguely close, it was a racing incident and the fans have claimed multiple times they want drivers to fight 100% and get into these type of battles

I see why people blame Hamilton but 'dirty' is too far and a penalty is far too far. Some people are welding the predictable Hamilton hate card although a lot of the people being critical of Hamilton are not out of line. I understand their opinion. In my opinion, Hamilton was at fault for the incident but Rosberg was at fault for losing all those places. Both culpable.

 

Do we really want to stop drivers fighting on track when the result is minor incidents. Let's enjoy close wheel-to-wheel racing 

Excellent summary.  Saying that Hamilton did this deliberately is foolish, why would he deliberately make contact?  But those who say that this wasn't Hamilton's fault are also foolish:  it clearly was Hamilton's fault, it just wasn't an intentional act.

[FrontWing]

No actually I can't. Please enlighten me.

 

I very much doubt the 207 people who voted here that felt Hamilton's move was dirty are the 'anti-Hamilton' types which you'd like them to be. Reducing the debate to this kind of rubbish is childish nonsense.
 

Lets end it then, no? 

I deleted said post m8. 

[Nonesuch]

Senna and Schumacher most likely would've conceded the corner because they are smart racers...

 

You don't need to be Schumacher to figure that out, though. When Maldonado battled Ricciardo in Austria (there's a clip of it on YouTube) he often found himself on the outside and did just that.

 

The thing is, Rosberg keeps pulling these moves and giving up halfway through.

 

What he is doing is the worst of both worlds, and no driver who is on the inside is going to give Rosberg any room because of it.

[D.M.N.]

At this point I feel that the thread is going round in circles and isn't really going anywhere.

 

I've closed the thread, but it can be reopened later if anything new is said on the incident.