96 replies to this topic

[ratmac]

I am a williams fan so no Lewis vs Nico bias here but since Spa 2014 i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars. I havent seen Nico return the favor. I watched the race yesterday and Juan Pablo Montoya was commenting that Rosberg should have them both crash when ever Lewis pulls another one of his maneuvers.

 

 

 

[topical]

They've been told many times to keep it clean, and Rosberg knows Lewis is a far bigger asset to the team than he is, which is why time and again now he lets Lewis pretty much bully him off the track whenevev Lewis wants. Tis the life of a Number 2.

[pdac]

Regarding the first corner incident yesterday, I think Nico could have shown a bit more aggression before they reached that point. He was on pole and so was already ahead of Lewis from the start. He should have squeeze Lewis before the corner, but he didn't. Had Nico done that, I'm sure that would have fitted with the Mercedes policy of keeping it clean.

Edited by pdac, 26 October 2015 - 15:37.

[Jon83]

I don't think there is, to be fair.

 

I do feel since Spa Nico has been different, but I don't think that is down to team orders. I think that weekend and the subsequent reaction has had a fairly big effect on him.

 

I'm not buying into this opportunistic nonsense though about Nico knowing his place as number 2 in the team. Those coming out with it are looking for cheap shots.

 

In terms of what Montoya apparently said, that is all fine early on in the season but Nico had to finish yesterday ahead of Hamilton and needed to do so in Japan as well. Crashing and probably retiring would have been disastrous for him and probably would have led to Spa '14 all over again.

Edited by Jon83, 26 October 2015 - 15:41.

[Marklar]

What has this to do with team orders? And since Spa? Hamilton also blocked Rosberg prior Spa (Bahrain, Hungary)...

[David1976]

My prediction is that next year will be Rosberg's last year at Mercedes if he doesn't win a title (which is unlikely at this stage).

 

He just hasn't been the same since Spa last year in my opinion where as Lewis, with little exception, has gone from strength to strength. Rosberg is in effect suffering against Lewis i the same way as Webber did against Vettel.  

[Mat13]

Canada 2014, first corner.

[MikeV1987]

Doubt there is team orders, but I have noticed Nico to be more of a passive driver since he got his pee-pee slapped in Spa 14'.

[fed up]

Regarding the first corner incident yesterday, I think Nico could have shown a bit more aggression before they reached that point. He was on pole and so was already ahead of Lewis from the start. He should have squeeze Lewis before the corner, but he didn't. Had Nico done that, I'm sure that would have fitted with the Mercedes policy of keeping it clean.

 

How can he show more aggression when he has more to lose? If they both crash Nico is out of the running for the WDC and likely to be pipped to 2nd place by Vettel, so he would always have to approach things with caution, more so than Lewis given his points lead.

Edited by fed up, 26 October 2015 - 15:47.

[Jay101]

Perhaps I need to watch more closely at the fourth coming races but from memory Lewis just doesn't seem to ever put himself in the kind of position where Nico can slam the door on him in a similar fashion as Lewis has to Nico, as has been pointed out though Nico has done it to Lewis in the past as in Canada last year but that was before Spa however.

[wookles]

I am a williams fan so no Lewis vs Nico bias here but since Spa 2014 i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars. I havent seen Nico return the favor. I watched the race yesterday and Juan Pablo Montoya was commenting that Rosberg should have them both crash when ever Lewis pulls another one of his maneuvers.

 

Firstly, Should this be in the Lewis Vs Nico thread ?

Secondly, Don't listen to JPM for an unbiased opinion. He's known to dislike LH and frankly anyone who advises that someone should drive into their team-mate is doing nobody any favours, least of all himself.

Thirdly, The reason you've no seen Nico 'return the favour' is because more often than not Lewis is doing the overtaking and manages to do it in a manner that allows Nico no choice in the matter.

[1c3M4n]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.

 

Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 

 

 

When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.

 

That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 

 

Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 

 

 

If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

[Pimpwerx]

JPM's comments are a bit daft. That sort of fieriness didn't help his career in F1, and never produced greater results against Michael. To finish first, first you must finish. Crashing won't accomplish that.

The better strategy is to know you're passing on the outside of someone who won't give any quarter, so you either make a strong move, protect the inside line, or prepare to switch back to the inside after the passee runs wide. Needless aggression is a senseless gamble. PEACE.

[robefc]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.

 

Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 

 

 

When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.

 

That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 

 

Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 

 

 

If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

 

Yep I didn't see any pace difference between them in the races last year at all!

[robefc]

I am not sure why people make such a big deal about Spa. The reason Nico didn't back off there was because he was already being bullied by Lewis (Bahrain, Hungary for example). All that Spa did was show that Nico is not in the same class wheel to wheel as Lewis. After Spa was exactly the same as before, Lewis winning when they are fighting over the same piece of track.

 

EDIT - should say kudos to Nico for his pass yesterday, that is one exception.

Edited by robefc, 26 October 2015 - 16:05.

[senna da silva]

I think the only rule Merc has is to not take each other out. The problem for Nico is he puts himself into a position where he has no where to go. The car on the inside always has the racing line and will naturally drift to the outside of a corner. I hope Nico from now on knows when a corner is lost rather than hanging on too long and suffering the consequences. I know this sounds harsh but it is the reality of racing.

Edited by senna da silva, 26 October 2015 - 16:07.

[Marklar]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.
 
Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 
 
 
When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.
 
That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 
 
Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 
 
 
If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

Despite that the whole thing belongs probably to the driver vs driver thread, but the title battle last year changed because Hamilton didnt sufferred any reliability issues anymore and this continued this season. The picture of an close title battle last year was caused by the faster driver having more reliability issues, thats it.

Edited by Marklar, 26 October 2015 - 16:36.

[maverick69]

No way. They are 100% treated equal in terms of strategy and resources - unless something exceptional turns up...... which it hasn't really yet. If anything (IMHO) Toto bonds with, and naturally leans towards Nico a little more. Niki has very much got Hamilton's back - so everyone is happy in that respect. 

 

Ironically, I believe that this apparent "inflexibility" was one of the main reasons that Hamilton's contract negotiations took so long. Or so my mate down the pub told me..... but I was slightly pissed - and so was he...... so who knows.

 

The truth is out there!

[Retrofly]

Despite that the whole thing belongs to the driver vs driver thread, but the title battle last year changed because Hamilton didnt sufferred any reliability issues anymore and this continued this season. The picture of an close title battle last year was caused by the faster driver having more reliability issues, thats it.

 

or the t1 thread

[1c3M4n]

I am not sure why people make such a big deal about Spa. The reason Nico didn't back off there was because he was already being bullied by Lewis (Bahrain, Hungary for example). All that Spa did was show that Nico is not in the same class wheel to wheel as Lewis. After Spa was exactly the same as before, Lewis winning when they are fighting over the same piece of track.

 

EDIT - should say kudos to Nico for his pass yesterday, that is one exception.

 

Because if Spa had gone teh other way ... I mean with team not butting in. Lewis would have learnt his lesson and not tried his bullying tactics again. 

 

FIA doesnt get involved in intra team battles generally and rely on team to step in and resolve the issue but Merc has failed on several occasions including last race where Ham 's only motivation was to simply run Nico out of race first corner !!

[1c3M4n]

I think the only rule Merc has is to not take each other out. The problem for Nico is he puts himself into a position where he has no where to go. The car on the inside always has the racing line and will naturally drift to the outside of a corner. I hope Nico from now on knows when a corner is lost rather than hanging on too long and suffering the consequences. I know this sounds harsh but it is the reality of racing.

 

Really... you think Lewis was making the corner?

 

Last race Nico was faster in Quali and race ... Lewis knew that and his only chance was the first corner and made sure that he got ahead even if it took dirty tactics.

[f1supreme]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.

 

Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 

 

 

When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.

 

That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 

 

Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 

 

 

If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

pace wise there is a difference.most of the time lewis is quicker,hence why quali has been so one sided.

[SophieB]

Eh, I think more threads is better than fewer threads and it gives more people a chance to comment on discussions that can get buried in the ongoing megathreads. If it starts just duplicating the Hamilton-Rosberg thread, it will get folded back in but we'll see how it goes. As long as people stick to the narrow focus it should work.

 

However, I would ask that people report threads (as was done here, thanks) if they think there's a better place for the discussion or if they think a thread is inappropriate. Please don't derail threads by questioning them out in the threads themselves.

[P123]

I'm surprised JPM would state that, given one of "his maneuvers" are pretty much the same as much of his own (and I say that as a fan of both). Maneuvers, as in getting the elbows out. In many ways Nico is in the same position that Ralf found himself with JPM in terms of wheel to wheel racing. On the receiving end of a few slaps, and screwing it all up when trying to return the favour.

I think the "more passive" Nico is a bit of a myth. Was he passive when passing Hamilton later on in the race a mere 24hrs ago? He came from a long long way back under braking to get the move done. Are memories that bad in here? The two of them raced fairly hard at Bahrain in 2014, at Hungary, at Spa. Was all that tyre smoke from Nico at T1 in Russia '14 him being passive? Wheel to wheel, Hamilton is superior. He went over the limit at T1 in Austin, but Nico has tended to find himself in a compromised position on track, pre and post Spa. Have a look back at the Bahrain fight. Time and again he went for the outside. When he finally made a move stick, Hamilton got him straight back, but by going for the undercut at the same turn rather than trying to hang on on the outside.

[senna da silva]

Really... you think Lewis was making the corner?

 

Last race Nico was faster in Quali and race ... Lewis knew that and his only chance was the first corner and made sure that he got ahead even if it took dirty tactics.

 

I think Nico blew the start and turn 1 was always Lewis's corner, Nico should have conceded and slotted into 2nd, I believe he would have had the measure of Lewis early on as Lewis struggled with tyre temp. It's really tough to say it was intentional when it's wet and they're on cold tyres, regardless it wasn't illegal.

[f1supreme]

Really... you think Lewis was making the corner?

 

Last race Nico was faster in Quali and race ... Lewis knew that and his only chance was the first corner and made sure that he got ahead even if it took dirty tactics.

nico was not quicker,lewis was within drs before nico retired.

[f1supreme]

Really... you think Lewis was making the corner?

 

Last race Nico was faster in Quali and race ... Lewis knew that and his only chance was the first corner and made sure that he got ahead even if it took dirty tactics.

not dirty tactics,racing.he saw a opportunity and went for it.thats what a racer is supposed to do.perhaps thats why lewis is getting the better of nico season after season.and lewis has won the usa gp 3 times from second place.so saying that was his only chance is foolish.lewis pace when it dried was quicker than nico's.plus lewis paced himself better on the softs.nico was clearly pushing too hard.and the reason why nico made a mistake was because lewis was right behind nico and quicker.

[pdac]

How can he show more aggression when he has more to lose? If they both crash Nico is out of the running for the WDC and likely to be pipped to 2nd place by Vettel, so he would always have to approach things with caution, more so than Lewis given his points lead.

 

I meant that he just let Lewis have plenty of space off the line, and so he could to choose his line to the corner. Rosberg could have made it a lot more  difficult for him without getting anywhere near to either crashing into the other. I think it's just a sign of the different mentality the two have

[Tsarwash]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.
 
Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 
 
 
When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.
 
That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 
 
Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 
 
 
If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

So much incorrect in that post. Webber was equally as quick as Seb ? There's no difference in pace between Lewis and Nico ? Obvious bias ? There may be bias, but it is not obvious. The reason that Nico got a bollocking was because of a clumsy move that gave his teammate a puncture.

[F1Johnny]

I think the only rule Merc has is to not take each other out. The problem for Nico is he puts himself into a position where he has no where to go. The car on the inside always has the racing line and will naturally drift to the outside of a corner. I hope Nico from now on knows when a corner is lost rather than hanging on too long and suffering the consequences. I know this sounds harsh but it is the reality of racing.

 

This.  It looks bad on TV, but Nico lost the corner earlier and should have allowed Lewis to run wide and then tuck in behind him for the pass.  that way he wouldn't have lost out to Kvyat and Ricciardo.

[ratmac]

Jpm said Hamilton basicly goes for manouvers versus Rosberg that  he wouldnt go against Vettel or Alonso because Rosberg lets him.

[ratmac]

if i were Rosberg next year. if the car is still so much better i would go way more aggressive from the beggining a few crashes and takeouts should rattle Hamilton. its his last year at mercedes anyways. better to lose trying its his last chance to be a wdc. there will always be teams that want him if mercedes sack him. Lewis even declared yesterday that nothing was handed to him. alluding Rosberg.

[1c3M4n]

Question is if there are team orders at Merc. 

By the looks of it , Nico has been clamped down ... and Lewis s aggressive demeanor is benefitting him. 

 

Overall - with reliability accounted for , little else to choose between the two. 

[1c3M4n]

if i were Rosberg next year. if the car is still so much better i would go way more aggressive from the beggining a few crashes and takeouts should rattle Hamilton. its his last year at mercedes anyways. better to lose trying its his last chance to be a wdc. there will always be teams that want him if mercedes sack him. Lewis even declared yesterday that nothing was handed to him. alluding Rosberg.

 

 

Eggzaacctlyy !! Thats the only way to do it ... to hell with the team if they are not letting you win the title anyway !!!

[ratmac]

Question is if there are team orders at Merc. 

By the looks of it , Nico has been clamped down ... and Lewis s aggressive demeanor is benefitting him. 

 

Overall - with reliability accounted for , little else to choose between the two. 

I agree looks like Lewis gets the benefit of the doubt always.

[SophieB]

Please keep the focus on the TO question, thank you.

[Myrvold]

Canada 2014, first corner.

 

Bahrain 2014, fight for first! Or was it to show that Rosberg can be an dirty driver himself?

[robefc]

Question is if there are team orders at Merc. 

By the looks of it , Nico has been clamped down ... and Lewis s aggressive demeanor is benefitting him. 

 

Overall - with reliability accounted for , little else to choose between the two. 

 

You genuinely can't be serious?

[robefc]

Because if Spa had gone teh other way ... I mean with team not butting in. Lewis would have learnt his lesson and not tried his bullying tactics again. 

 

FIA doesnt get involved in intra team battles generally and rely on team to step in and resolve the issue but Merc has failed on several occasions including last race where Ham 's only motivation was to simply run Nico out of race first corner !!

 

Rubbish, why would he? Spa didn't go his way, he ended up at the back. The usual rationale behind crashing a rival to asset yourself is when that driver is doing move out the way or we crash moves and you refuse to move. Spa wasn't that, it was a stupid non move that cost merc a likely victory and 1-2 and was only made to 'prove a point'. That is why he got a bollocking.

[paipa]

Overall - with reliability accounted for , little else to choose between the two. 

I almost wish Lewis retired in the next three races for a good laugh at this strange claim. His engine could blow three more times and it still wouldn't make a difference.

[oetzi]

@OP yes, and not just this year. Though not all of last year

[smitten]

i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars.

The mind 'sees' what it wants too.

[Szoelloe]

I am a williams fan so no Lewis vs Nico bias here but since Spa 2014 i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars. I havent seen Nico return the favor. I watched the race yesterday and Juan Pablo Montoya was commenting that Rosberg should have them both crash when ever Lewis pulls another one of his maneuvers.

 

No. It's not that surprising some folks think there are though. It is pretty similar to the first five MS/RB years at Ferrari, bar one huge brain fade from papa Todt at Austria. Same car same technology, and Woobens - to this day - still believes he would have had a shot at the WDC if they let him. In truth, his only obstacle was MS. Rosberg has the same problem. He has the talent, he has the speed, but he hasn't got the consistency, the ability to concentrate, and maybe most importantly the grit. Sadly or not, LH has cracked his spine in the last two years. He should leave the team ASAP, because he is developing a serious case of rubensitis.

 

On another note, LH is by now, has a protected status at the team. That is quite normal, and nobody should mix it up with a classic team-order situation.

[Seanspeed]

I am a williams fan so no Lewis vs Nico bias here but since Spa 2014 i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars. I havent seen Nico return the favor. I watched the race yesterday and Juan Pablo Montoya was commenting that Rosberg should have them both crash when ever Lewis pulls another one of his maneuvers.

Montoya *would* say that. lol

But no, that's just Lewis being a better driver than Rosberg. You can pull off sticky or questionable maneuvers better when you're more talented. You straddle the 'right' side of the limits during a risky move rather than the wrong side, like Maldonado.

That said, the FIA lets everybody get away with driving each other off-track nowadays, which makes things easier to be reckless and not have to worry about repercussions. Just rely on other's self preservation, like Montoya often used to, and you'll be fine, cuz the FIA ignores this bullshit for some reason.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 October 2015 - 19:00.

[senna da silva]

Question is if there are team orders at Merc. 

By the looks of it , Nico has been clamped down ... and Lewis s aggressive demeanor is benefitting him. 

 

Overall - with reliability accounted for , little else to choose between the two. 

 

I believe the only order is to not take each other out, that's why Spa was an issue. I don't for a second believe there is any favouritism being played at Merc.

 

We don't really need to pull up all the stats to prove the difference between them do we?

[syolase]

Perhaps I need to watch more closely at the fourth coming races but from memory Lewis just doesn't seem to ever put himself in the kind of position where Nico can slam the door on him in a similar fashion as Lewis has to Nico, as has been pointed out though Nico has done it to Lewis in the past as in Canada last year but that was before Spa however.

This exactly. Just look at Sochi this year, after the start at turn 2, he backed out way before the corner, not even giving Nico the chance to do this. Terrible quality but you guys can see what im talking about:

[Nonesuch]

Are there team orders in place at Mercedes gp?

 

Who knows! From my perspective as a viewer I'm quite convinced that both drivers were told in no uncertain terms after Belgium 2014 that there would be no more crashing into each other.

 

Other than that, they seem to keep things pretty much the same between the drivers. It's just that Rosberg isn't good enough to match Hamilton over a season. There's no real shame in that. No prizes either, but that's a different subject.

Edited by Nonesuch, 26 October 2015 - 19:10.

[Paco]

Sp for the original question, no team orders but there are situational orders ie don't take your team mate out, probably after last pit stops unless dramatic speed difference hold positions etc..

[Paco]

Nico didn't have the corner period. If Lewis was fighting Seb or anyone else... No one at MGP or any MGP fan would have a single issue with the move...

So why should Lewis be treated any different simply because it was Nico... Cause poor nick can't hold a stick to Lewis? Lewis out started Nico had the inside line.. It's Nico fault for not being far enough ahead to make the corner..

[goingthedistance]

Nico has always been a frustratingly passive driver. Fast enough in quali but lacks the killer instinct that the likes of Hamilton, Ricciardo and Verstappen have.