96 replies to this topic

[Mat13]

Bahrain 2014, fight for first! Or was it to show that Rosberg can be an dirty driver himself?

Rosberg, although I wouldn't say it was a dirty move. Firm perhaps.

[Ricardo F1]

No there aren't.  One driver has excelled this year, the other has had moments few and far between summed up on Sunday by throwing away a win.  Or should we start the conspiracy theory that Toto TOLD Nico to lose it on that corner, let Lewis by and that "next year will be his year".

Edited by Ricardo F1, 26 October 2015 - 19:40.

[cool inferno]

I don't think there are any team orders because Hamilton simply has the upper hand on Rosberg and there is no need for it. Now as for Montoya and his comments, he never cared for Lewis and seems to have disliked him since the McLaren days.  Remember when Ron was going to give Kimi and JPM the boot for Alonso and Lewis back then in 2006.

 

http://www.news24.co...ntoya-20060622 

[krea]

For 2016 he should just stay on the line.

 

What could happen anyway? Not winning the WDC next year as well?

[myattitude]

Firstly, Should this be in the Lewis Vs Nico thread ?

Secondly, Don't listen to JPM for an unbiased opinion. He's known to dislike LH.

Really? Do you have any links on that? Seems random.

[MasterOfCoin]

I think Nico blew the start and turn 1 was always Lewis's corner, Nico should have conceded and slotted into 2nd, I believe he would have had the measure of Lewis early on as Lewis struggled with tyre temp. It's really tough to say it was intentional when it's wet and they're on cold tyres, regardless it wasn't illegal.

Exactly i don't see why it's so hard for people to understand if Nico keeps blowing the starts that puts him in this position time and time again. When Lewis had his bad start at Austria, Nico couldn't push him off because he conceded the position and got back in line, sometimes you have to admit that you've lost the corner and back off.

[oetzi]

Bahrain 2014, fight for first! Or was it to show that Rosberg can be an dirty driver himself?

That's where it started.

[jjcale]

I don't think there are any team orders because Hamilton simply has the upper hand on Rosberg and there is no need for it. Now as for Montoya and his comments, he never cared for Lewis and seems to have disliked him since the McLaren days.  Remember when Ron was going to give Kimi and JPM the boot for Alonso and Lewis back then in 2006.

 

http://www.news24.co...ntoya-20060622 

 

JPM could have gone to Redbull??!!

 

/OT

[WelshSwan]

Doubt there is team orders, but I have noticed Nico to be more of a passive driver since he got his pee-pee slapped in Spa 14'.

 

I said in the Lewis/Nico thread last year just after Spa when people were really piling the hate on Rosberg that it would be a turning point and I think it was. It's interesting that after yesterday Wolff has come out and said that basically, these things happen in the wet when referring to the first corner incident yesterday. That's all well and good and I would buy that if Lewis had actually been fully turning his wheel to avoid Rosberg but he didn't, ultimately I think Lewis knew Nico would eventually yield and that's exactly what he did.

 

Had Rosberg not yielded and allowed them to collide, you'd have most people saying Nico was to sabotage Lewis's title chance and the Mercedes guys, I think, would have been blaming Nico for the crash as he had the room to avoid it. 

 

And look, I am no Hamilton fan but I can appreciate that he is most definitely one of the top drivers on the grid, if not the top driver right now (I place Vettel a close second as he has done tremendously well this year). He is a far more aggressive driver than Nico, who does show glimpses of aggression when it comes to overtaking other drivers but when it comes to overtaking his team mate he seems to shy away from it. 

 

And I do feel for Rosberg, who has been at Mercedes for a long time and has been involved in building the team up from when it started only to have the misfortune to have Lewis Hamilton as his team mate when they do finally get a Championship winning car. I just don't see how he is going to be able to pick himself up from this, seeing the press conference yesterday he was pretty much a broken man and I don't think he has any answers left as to what he can do to stop Lewis next year.

 

The Mercedes team, as much as they say they don't favor either driver, I think clearly have in their minds that Lewis is their clear number one and Nico is a solid, if at times sloppy, number two. You can't blame them for that but I do feel they've been very hypocritical in how they reacted to the Spa incident last year and the incident here. Nico will be with them next year but honestly, I think he will retire after that.

[Marklar]

I said in the Lewis/Nico thread last year just after Spa when people were really piling the hate on Rosberg that it would be a turning point and I think it was. It's interesting that after yesterday Wolff has come out and said that basically, these things happen in the wet when referring to the first corner incident yesterday. That's all well and good and I would buy that if Lewis had actually been fully turning his wheel to avoid Rosberg but he didn't, ultimately I think Lewis knew Nico would eventually yield and that's exactly what he did.
 
Had Rosberg not yielded and allowed them to collide, you'd have most people saying Nico was to sabotage Lewis's title chance and the Mercedes guys, I think, would have been blaming Nico for the crash as he had the room to avoid it. 
 
And look, I am no Hamilton fan but I can appreciate that he is most definitely one of the top drivers on the grid, if not the top driver right now (I place Vettel a close second as he has done tremendously well this year). He is a far more aggressive driver than Nico, who does show glimpses of aggression when it comes to overtaking other drivers but when it comes to overtaking his team mate he seems to shy away from it. 
 
And I do feel for Rosberg, who has been at Mercedes for a long time and has been involved in building the team up from when it started only to have the misfortune to have Lewis Hamilton as his team mate when they do finally get a Championship winning car. I just don't see how he is going to be able to pick himself up from this, seeing the press conference yesterday he was pretty much a broken man and I don't think he has any answers left as to what he can do to stop Lewis next year.
 
The Mercedes team, as much as they say they don't favor either driver, I think clearly have in their minds that Lewis is their clear number one and Nico is a solid, if at times sloppy, number two. You can't blame them for that but I do feel they've been very hypocritical in how they reacted to the Spa incident last year and the incident here. Nico will be with them next year but honestly, I think he will retire after that.

Agree with most of that what you said, but on the bolded part: WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?

[WelshSwan]

Agree with most of that what you said, but on the bolded part: WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?

 

I think he might seriously consider it, retiring from F1 that is depending on what happens next year. Having said that, I am going by his mood in the press conference yesterday so once he's had time during the break to gather himself I hope he can come back stronger. I felt sorry for him in that conference yesterday, most of the questions were directed at Seb/Lewis and how it feels to be a world champion and he had to sit there listening to people say that they basically expected next year to be a battle between Seb/Lewis.

 

I don't know, I just don't think he has any answers as to what he can do and he seems so unhappy at the moment in the team. If he stays I fear he is just going to be another Mark Webber and I don't think he wants that. Of course, if another team came in for him he might well go but I could see him moving to another series too. I hope I am wrong and he can use this season to spur him on but I also said that last year.

[Currahee]

I don't think so. They are free to race imo.

 

Its just Hamilton is a wee bit better than Rosberg.

[carlt]

Didn't Rosberg force Hamilton off track when he passed him mid race [ or was I dreaming ]  ?

[myattitude]

JPM could have gone to Redbull??!!

 

/OT

I got more excited about the prospect of Montoya alongside Alonso - that would have made Prost/Senna look like a lover's tiff!

[senna da silva]

I said in the Lewis/Nico thread last year just after Spa when people were really piling the hate on Rosberg that it would be a turning point and I think it was. It's interesting that after yesterday Wolff has come out and said that basically, these things happen in the wet when referring to the first corner incident yesterday. That's all well and good and I would buy that if Lewis had actually been fully turning his wheel to avoid Rosberg but he didn't, ultimately I think Lewis knew Nico would eventually yield and that's exactly what he did.

 

Had Rosberg not yielded and allowed them to collide, you'd have most people saying Nico was to sabotage Lewis's title chance and the Mercedes guys, I think, would have been blaming Nico for the crash as he had the room to avoid it. 

 

And look, I am no Hamilton fan but I can appreciate that he is most definitely one of the top drivers on the grid, if not the top driver right now (I place Vettel a close second as he has done tremendously well this year). He is a far more aggressive driver than Nico, who does show glimpses of aggression when it comes to overtaking other drivers but when it comes to overtaking his team mate he seems to shy away from it. 

 

And I do feel for Rosberg, who has been at Mercedes for a long time and has been involved in building the team up from when it started only to have the misfortune to have Lewis Hamilton as his team mate when they do finally get a Championship winning car. I just don't see how he is going to be able to pick himself up from this, seeing the press conference yesterday he was pretty much a broken man and I don't think he has any answers left as to what he can do to stop Lewis next year.

 

The Mercedes team, as much as they say they don't favor either driver, I think clearly have in their minds that Lewis is their clear number one and Nico is a solid, if at times sloppy, number two. You can't blame them for that but I do feel they've been very hypocritical in how they reacted to the Spa incident last year and the incident here. Nico will be with them next year but honestly, I think he will retire after that.

 

You can't just say he didn't have the wheel at full lock and was therefore at fault. Slip angles and the amount of grip available play a huge role. If Lewis was already understeering, no amount of full lock would help that situation. I will reiterate that Rosberg shouldn't continually put himself in an untenable position.

[Marklar]

My two cents: Generally I dont think so. But I'm 100 % sure that Mercedes is over regulating the whole "battle". It already started after Bahrain 2014 (since than we never saw any exciting wheel to wheel battle again), got worse in Spa and even worse with the new season (and I guess it will go even worse now). That Rosberg is always backing off and Hamilton not might have the reason that Hamilton never gets into the same situation like Rosberg and than I do believe that Hamilton is taking advantage of these "rules": Rosberg seems to insists on this rule book they made (see his reaction in China for example) perhaps to protect himself, whereas Hamilton dont care.

[string158]

Maybe Nico is too scared after Spa 14, and is worried that he cant defend/attack aggressively in case he messes up and crashes.

[WelshSwan]

You can't just say he didn't have the wheel at full lock and was therefore at fault. Slip angles and the amount of grip available play a huge role. If Lewis was already understeering, no amount of full lock would help that situation. I will reiterate that Rosberg shouldn't continually put himself in an untenable position.

 

If that had been Nico I think your tune would change to be fair. Could Rosberg have been smarter? Yes, and that is partly what is letting him down, a huge part actually, racecraft. Is he scared to go up against Hamilton in case they touch/crash because of what happened after Spa last year? I believe that also plays on his mind too. Mercedes are now I would say firmly Lewis Hamilton's team and Nico is going to have one hell of a job changing that. Even Toto Wolff, who seemingly stuck up for Nico a fair bit in the past, seems to have lost his faith in him. I don't think Mercedes is a happy place for him at the moment.

[senna da silva]

If that had been Nico I think your tune would change to be fair. Could Rosberg have been smarter? Yes, and that is partly what is letting him down, a huge part actually, racecraft. Is he scared to go up against Hamilton in case they touch/crash because of what happened after Spa last year? I believe that also plays on his mind too. Mercedes are now I would say firmly Lewis Hamilton's team and Nico is going to have one hell of a job changing that. Even Toto Wolff, who seemingly stuck up for Nico a fair bit in the past, seems to have lost his faith in him. I don't think Mercedes is a happy place for him at the moment.

 

Not really, having driven a car in anger I know better than to stick it on the outside of a corner when someone has already taken the inside, if Lewis was in that position and had to go wide it would be fairs fair. I agree that Merc is Lewis's team but only because he has been consistent in putting up the results, I would say management have the confidence in him to get the job done. That said I don't believe there is any advantage in equipment or resources being given to Lewis.

[garagetinkerer]

The thing is that pace wise - there is nothing to separate Lewis and Nico.

 

Its just the mentality... and also some obvious bias in the team against Nico/ 

 

 

When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.

 

That race changed teh picture for 2014 WDC as well as made sure 2015 WDC only had one name written on it. 

 

Nico is today's Webber .. who was equally quick but had to swim against th etide and failed. 

 

 

If Nico wants anything , he has to grow a thicker skin and crash Ham out a few times if that what it takes Ham to stop his shenanigans.  A bit like Vettel who rode the public booing and media villianisation and came out on top

 

Mateschitz had Webbo's back. Heck, Webbo declined to drive for Ferrari and drove for RBR still. I know, it is off topic, apologies all.

[restless]

After Spa'14 its obvious that there are orders. But different.

-  to LH: whatever you do, it is allowed

- to NR: do what you can, but never ever again defend your position when our PR-star tries to overtake you

 

Hamilton is good, very aggresive driving style and one of best pilots atm, after all looking at his Mclaren years he is as good as Button , but its obvious that for him everything is allowed, while for Rosberg that is not the case.

Edited by restless, 27 October 2015 - 19:33.

[FrontWing]

After Spa'14 its obvious that there are orders. But different.

-  to LH: whatever you do, it is allowed

- to NR: do what you can, but never ever again defend your position when our PR-star tries to overtake you

 

Hamilton is good, very aggresive driving style and one of best pilots atm, after all looking at his Mclaren years he is as good as Button , but its obvious that for him everything is allowed, while for Rosberg that is not the case.

 

Nah, its in your head. Hamilton came from behind and overtook Nico last year after SPA. How many times has Lewis pulled an aggressive move on Rosberg this year? Twice?

More often than not Rosberg has just been slower, that's not team orders, just talent.

Edited by FrontWing, 27 October 2015 - 20:05.

[Ricardo F1]

 

 

Had Rosberg not yielded and allowed them to collide, you'd have most people saying Nico was to sabotage Lewis's title chance and the Mercedes guys, I think, would have been blaming Nico for the crash as he had the room to avoid it. 

 

He didn't yield, they did collide, Rosberg was just in a completely untenable position on the outside of the corner.  Once they'd touched he went further off, just plain hard racing, I'm sure Nico would have done the same and it wouldn't have been deliberate by him either.

[Counterbalance]

The only team orders in place at Mercedes are determined by Hamilton's right foot. The rest of conjecture is paranoid shite spouted by those with an agenda. Does anyone really think Hamilton needs help to win against a man with a sulky schoolboy attitude who bottles at critical moments? And why would Mercedes even employ team orders when they know full well that either one or other of their drivers will take the WDC? Makes no sense unless you're looking for a reason which doesn't in all reality exist.

[oetzi]

Montoya alongside Alonso

Handbags at 12 paces

Edited by oetzi, 27 October 2015 - 22:43.

[oetzi]

My two cents: Generally I dont think so. But I'm 100 % sure that Mercedes is over regulating the whole "battle". It already started after Bahrain 2014 (since than we never saw any exciting wheel to wheel battle again), got worse in Spa and even worse with the new season (and I guess it will go even worse now). That Rosberg is always backing off and Hamilton not might have the reason that Hamilton never gets into the same situation like Rosberg and than I do believe that Hamilton is taking advantage of these "rules": Rosberg seems to insists on this rule book they made (see his reaction in China for example) perhaps to protect himself, whereas Hamilton dont care.

They have a set of rules. But if you win you're right. Nico needs to understand Niki.

Edited by oetzi, 27 October 2015 - 22:41.

[alframsey]

I don't know why some people seemingly refuse to believe what they see on a race day, that Nico simply isn't good enough to beat Lewis over a season. Why always the need to find team orders or some other such controversy?

Edited by alframsey, 27 October 2015 - 22:45.

[oetzi]

Yeah, life always that simple. Whoever wins The Apprentice is definitely a great entrepreneur. And 'Lord' Sugar definitely deserves the licence fee acting as his agent.

At least in F1 you'd have the balls to ask for a share of his share. Or you wouldn't last long.

As it is, everyone here asks for someone else to get a share of someone else's share. Or to give a share of their share to someone else. Be that cash, engines, TV time or whatever.

Buying, selling, trading and begging shares of things doesn't necessarily lead to an equitable outcome.

Two seats next to each other don't always have the same value, even if they did when you paid for them.

[sosidge]

There have been team orders to favour Lewis in that team since Malaysia 2013.

 

The team lets them race because they would get in trouble otherwise - however, if a decision had to be made, Lewis would be given the advantage. He certainly doesn't get told off for being robust, whereas Nico does.

 

It's moot anyway , since Lewis is just plain better than Nico, especially wheel-to-wheel, and doesn't needs the team to call it in his favour.

[oetzi]

Nico was allowed to race start of last year. The restriction isn't contractual, it's in his head. He's a nice boy, he follows the rules. No need to write it down.

Should give his seat to papa for a weekend

[travbrad]

When Lewis does it , its swept under the carpet but when Nico showed his aggressive side last year at Spa - team publicly turned against him.

 

 

I would say Spa 2014 was more stupid than "aggressive" though.  When only your front wing is overlapping the rear tyres of the other guy and you are on the outside that is probably the time to back out.  If Nico had refused to give up at the US GP and they had collided in a major way at the first corner it would be much easier to make a case in favor of Nico since in that case he actually had a lot of overlap.  In fact they did actually have a small collision and I haven't heard anything from the team criticizing Nico.  If anything it sounded like Toto thought it was more Hamilton's fault but he wanted to discuss it after the championship celebrations.

 

It didn't really matter in the end though since Nico threw the race away at the end of the race by himself without any help from Lewis.

Edited by travbrad, 28 October 2015 - 01:56.

[Marklar]

There have been team orders to favour Lewis in that team since Malaysia 2013.
 
The team lets them race because they would get in trouble otherwise - however, if a decision had to be made, Lewis would be given the advantage. He certainly doesn't get told off for being robust, whereas Nico does.
 
It's moot anyway , since Lewis is just plain better than Nico, especially wheel-to-wheel, and doesn't needs the team to call it in his favour.

What about Hungary 2014?

[Pimpwerx]

Since no one knows the terms of the agreement, it would seem this is all just conjecture. We haven't heard any orders on the radio other than random changes in pit order, but those have been attempts to secure team results. PEACE.

[teejay]

Team order at Mercedes?

 

Sure

 

It's - 1. Lewis. 2. Nico 

 

This has been determined by the 10 to 3 wins this year and securing the title with 3 races to go. Lewis didn't need the team to ask for that to happen. 

[oetzi]

Since no one knows the terms of the agreement

Some people do. Obviously.

[Pimpwerx]

Some people do. Obviously.

Not on here. Anyone that high up in Merc team management has better things to do with their free time. PEACE.

[oetzi]

So only Merc know?

That could get confusing.

Edited by oetzi, 28 October 2015 - 10:28.

[Pimpwerx]

So only Merc know?

That could get confusing.

Not sure why anyone outside of the racing team would need to know. A lawyer maybe? But I doubt you'd need legal counsel to draft simple driving rules. PEACE.

[oetzi]

Ok

[BCM]

I am a williams fan so no Lewis vs Nico bias here but since Spa 2014 i have seen that its only Lewis who blocks Nico without leaving room for both cars. I havent seen Nico return the favor. I watched the race yesterday and Juan Pablo Montoya was commenting that Rosberg should have them both crash when ever Lewis pulls another one of his maneuvers.

 

Rosberg should have drawn a line in the sand back in Bahrain in 2014. Even if you're on the outside, you have a right to racing room on the track. The first time Hamilton tried it on, Rosberg should have just parked his car on the edge of the track and let what was to be, be.

 

I was watching one of the F1 Legends show a month or so ago. It was about Mansell. He related a story about an incident he had with Senna where Senna tried to bully him. Mansell held his position. After the race Senna came to him and told him that he was crazy to which Mansell replied - "Now you know". Mansell believes from that point on, Senna knew what would happen if he tried it on with Mansell again.

 

And that's where Rosberg has gone wrong. It's all in his hands. You get the respect you deserve on track - and that respect for racing room is based on how the other driver perceives you. Hamilton currently thinks Rosberg is his b......and Rosberg seems to agree.

 

I'd love to see Verstappen and Hamilton in similar cars. It's already obvious to me that Verstappen is the same sort of aggressive driver that Hamilton is. Hopefully that will happen before Hamilton retires because there will be fireworks. Guaranteed.

Edited by BCM, 28 October 2015 - 13:21.

[Pimpwerx]

Nico tried to hold his line. Lewis under steered into him. Nico got bumped wide. Silly machismo really has no place in actual racing. Tactics require intelligence. It's two alpha males going at it. Neither is likely to get intimidated. I just think Nico knows an untenable situation when he sees it. Forcing a collision isn't going to help him win championships. It didn't work for Lewis and Felipe in 2011. PEACE.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 28 October 2015 - 14:13.

[MikeV1987]

 

 

Lewis knows that Nico will always surrender his position easily if he gets squeezed. Nico needs to assert his position better because Lewis simply just walks all over him. If they crash, then so be it.

 

 

 

 

I was watching one of the F1 Legends show a month or so ago. It was about Mansell. He related a story about an incident he had with Senna where Senna tried to bully him. Mansell held his position. After the race Senna came to him and told him that he was crazy to which Mansell replied - "Now you know". Mansell believes from that point on, Senna knew what would happen if he tried it on with Mansell again.

 

 

 

Edited by MikeV1987, 28 October 2015 - 15:58.

[InSearchOfThe]

All teams have team orders. Whether we know about them or not is a different question.
Or if they decide to follow them.

[WelshSwan]

 

 

Lewis knows that Nico will always surrender his position easily if he gets squeezed. Nico needs to assert his position better because Lewis simply just walks all over him. If they crash, then so be it.

 

 

 

 

Totally agree with you. Now what Nico needs to do in these last 3 races is bring all that aggression to the fore, have a positive end of the season to prepare him for next year. I don't think any of us (apart from some LH fans) want to see Lewis glide his way through to a fourth world title without facing a stern challenge from his team mate. Of course there's a chance Ferrari might be up there too but I don't believe they'll have quite enough to mount a very strong challenge so the challenge HAS to come from Nico.

 

Regarding team orders at Mercedes, I don't believe for a second there was a team order in place this past weekend. Why? Because Nico's mistake brought him right into the arms of Vettel who had fresher tyres and had he made another mistake, it would have meant LH didn't win the title. Nico was under pressure and he knew Lewis had fresher tyres, he was trying to keep the gap steady and pushed too hard, made a mistake. No team orders there I don't think. 

[baddog]

Nico didn't have the corner period. If Lewis was fighting Seb or anyone else... No one at MGP or any MGP fan would have a single issue with the move...

So why should Lewis be treated any different simply because it was Nico... Cause poor nick can't hold a stick to Lewis? Lewis out started Nico had the inside line.. It's Nico fault for not being far enough ahead to make the corner..

 

If Nico was from another team Lewis would have been complained about, investigated and served a drive-through penalty. He actually hit the other car and pushed it off track while nowhere near any racing line.

 

He ONLY pulls this **** because he knows the team are not about to complain to the stewards.

[Marklar]

If Nico was from another team Lewis would have been complained about, investigated and served a drive-through penalty. He actually hit the other car and pushed it off track while nowhere near any racing line.
 
He ONLY pulls this **** because he knows the team are not about to complain to the stewards.

Did you saw the Alonso/Massa incident? Different teams, Alonso complained and it was not investigated (and it was much worse).

If a little contact is worth a DT, than this sport is dead.

[KingTiger]

Mercedes gifted Nico a win in Monaco, so I really doubt they would give him any specific team orders that aren't common sense, like "don't take out your teammate and yourself on the first lap with a stupid move."