102 replies to this topic

[oetzi]

For instance, when Max Mosley quite justifiably called out Mr Stewart as a 1930s music hall man (hope I got the decade right).

I just said something badly received about Johnny Herbert, who is a lovely chap by all all accounts.

Fact is, he had an accident that slowed him down. Just like Jackie Stewart does look daft.

Leaving out team/driver bs, what sacred cows have you stumbled across in racing?

[SR388]

Senna. We are only recently getting around to criticizing him.

Kubica?

Edited by SR388, 28 October 2015 - 01:33.

[Lemans]

Senna. We are only recently getting around to criticizing him.

Kubica?

 

It's weird because he was criticized a lot when he was around. I'm a huge Senna fan and I can easily say he could be a giant prick.

 

Are we allowed to criticize Gilles? Too soon?

[teejay]

Pastor.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

But if you were going to be mean about him wouldn't you spell it Pasta........

[ViMaMo]

Pastor.

 

U love him, dontcha. 

[Afterburner]

An interesting question, typically because the feeling that you can't or shouldn't speak ill of something is very similar to a fear of not being PC. I tend to see this as being 'drivers you don't criticise because it would make you unpopular'. There are some examples which are more egregious than others in racing, but all of them, as the current ones, will fade with time.

 

Alonso is the first one that comes to mind. Despite having one truly great season in the last ten years, people still default to him as their choice for 'best' because they've heard others say it so many times--it's really more a cliche than it is a fact. I guess people feel bad for him because he tends to find himself in bad cars, but they shouldn't because he ended up in all of them except the first one of his own accord and is still a gazillionaire and double world champion anyway.

 

I feel like Nico Hulkenberg is another great example of this. Since he won Le Mans and got a string of good results at the start of the year, he's tended to get a pass for some pretty stupid moves as of late. People feel like the top teams aren't giving him a fair shake, but why should they given that one of them tried out Perez and Hulkenberg's shown he's not really any better?

 

Kubica is another one; even though it was really hard to measure his potential, a lot of people are certain he'd have been a world champ. Fact is, we'll never really know--but to offer a bite of a reality sandwich and suggest otherwise typically isn't a popular move. One wonders how people would've viewed Massa if the spring he took to the face in Hungary would've forced his retirement.

 

Jules Bianchi, to a limited extent, also falls into this category. While his accident was tragic and I can't imagine how his family must feel to have lost him so young, it's definitely not considered PC to suggest he might've caused it himself by speeding under yellows. The fact of the matter is he took one liberty too many at precisely the wrong time--just as we are all wont to do--but unfortunately Jules paid the ultimate price.

 

There are numerous other examples that are at a similar level--namely Rossi, Raikkonen, Senna, and Schumacher--but I'm too tired to write any more right now. Just because our heroes' stories might not always turn out the way we feel they deserve doesn't mean we should alter our view of them at the detriment of reality--doing so does a disservice to those who were truly great and earned the near-universal praise they received.

 

Perhaps that, for me, is the reason Bianchi's and Wilson's deaths were so hard to take--the two of them are drivers about whom it truly is almost impossible to say anything negative and do so fairly. Wilson in particular left a larger impression on me with a partial career than pretty much any driver probably will with a full one--and to think that some of the names I've mentioned above will have more defenders than him and Bianchi for doing some really stupid s%&t is brutally sobering, if I'm honest.

[Hamandeggs]

I'm also too tired for detail so I'll say Eddie Irvine and come Bk tomorrow to expand

[Jimisgod]

No one has had a bad word for M. Schumacher since his accident. He used to be the German Dick Dastardly but now he's pretty much only called the statistically greatest driver ever and his various indiscretions are not mentioned. Gilles seems to shielded from all criticism because of his wild driving and Ferrari links; it's assumed by practically everyone that he would have won a WDC but his driving history showed he could be patchy.

[FBJim]

Pastor.

Agreed. He's a legend.

[teejay]

Seeing Justin Wilson's name above reminds me instantly that Dan Wheldon is probably untouchable - but with good reason - both are remembered as genuinely good men.

[FBJim]

On the stock car side, I've never, ever heard a single bad word about Benny Parsons. 

[MastaKink]

An interesting question, typically because the feeling that you can't or shouldn't speak ill of something is very similar to a fear of not being PC. I tend to see this as being 'drivers you don't criticise because it would make you unpopular'. There are some examples which are more egregious than others in racing, but all of them, as the current ones, will fade with time.

 

Alonso is the first one that comes to mind. Despite having one truly great season in the last ten years, people still default to him as their choice for 'best' because they've heard others say it so many times--it's really more a cliche than it is a fact. I guess people feel bad for him because he tends to find himself in bad cars, but they shouldn't because he ended up in all of them except the first one of his own accord and is still a gazillionaire and double world champion anyway.

 

I feel like Nico Hulkenberg is another great example of this. Since he won Le Mans and got a string of good results at the start of the year, he's tended to get a pass for some pretty stupid moves as of late. People feel like the top teams aren't giving him a fair shake, but why should they given that one of them tried out Perez and Hulkenberg's shown he's not really any better?

 

Kubica is another one; even though it was really hard to measure his potential, a lot of people are certain he'd have been a world champ. Fact is, we'll never really know--but to offer a bite of a reality sandwich and suggest otherwise typically isn't a popular move. One wonders how people would've viewed Massa if the spring he took to the face in Hungary would've forced his retirement.

 

Jules Bianchi, to a limited extent, also falls into this category. While his accident was tragic and I can't imagine how his family must feel to have lost him so young, it's definitely not considered PC to suggest he might've caused it himself by speeding under yellows. The fact of the matter is he took one liberty too many at precisely the wrong time--just as we are all wont to do--but unfortunately Jules paid the ultimate price.

 

There are numerous other examples that are at a similar level--namely Rossi, Raikkonen, Senna, and Schumacher--but I'm too tired to write any more right now. Just because our heroes' stories might not always turn out the way we feel they deserve doesn't mean we should alter our view of them at the detriment of reality--doing so does a disservice to those who were truly great and earned the near-universal praise they received.

 

Perhaps that, for me, is the reason Bianchi's and Wilson's deaths were so hard to take--the two of them are drivers about whom it truly is almost impossible to say anything negative and do so fairly. Wilson in particular left a larger impression on me with a partial career than pretty much any driver probably will with a full one--and to think that some of the names I've mentioned above will have more defenders than him and Bianchi for doing some really stupid s%&t is brutally sobering, if I'm honest.

 

 

You say Alonso has only had one truly great season, which I agree with, but he's the only one of the current top drivers to even have one so i'm not sure how that's a bad thing.  Lewis in 07&12 are the nearest to that one and Seb in 13&15 are his best but a bit short of the others mentioned. There are also several "only" great seasons for all 3 of them.

 

Have you thought maybe it's not sympathy people are using to judge Alonso but they just don't suffer from car blindness like so many seem to suffer from.  His 05/6,8,9,13 and 14 are all seasons he also drove brilliantly, it's a bit iffy to ignore them because they didn't reach the heights of his one truly great season. Those don't happen too often.

[sennafan24]

You say Alonso has only had one truly great season, which I agree with

I don't.

 

Alonso's 2006 and 2012 campaigns are easily two of the best campaigns in the past 10 years. His 2014 campaign was not far off either.  Alonso has made some daft choices in his career, and the onus falls on him for that. But on track, I still think he's the best of this era, even if it is by the tiniest of margins, and I say that as someone who really wants to deem Lewis as the best. 

[MastaKink]

I don't.

 

Alonso's 2006 and 2012 campaigns are easily two of the best campaigns in the past 10 years. His 2014 campaign was not far off either.  Alonso has made some daft choices in his career, and the onus falls on him for that. But on track, I still think he's the best of this era, even if it is by the tiniest of margins, and I say that as someone who really wants to deem Lewis as the best. 

 

I'm probably taking Afterburners "truly great"  far too literally here yeah. It was 12 I assumed he was talking about and I think that's the best I've seen since Schumacher in'97.  I don't think you're going to have to wait long to say Lewis is the best, every driver i've ever seen has peaked in their early 30's and it's a mouthwatering prospect considering where he is right now. Seb too.

[hittheapex]

An interesting question, typically because the feeling that you can't or shouldn't speak ill of something is very similar to a fear of not being PC. I tend to see this as being 'drivers you don't criticise because it would make you unpopular'. There are some examples which are more egregious than others in racing, but all of them, as the current ones, will fade with time.

 

Alonso is the first one that comes to mind. Despite having one truly great season in the last ten years, people still default to him as their choice for 'best' because they've heard others say it so many times--it's really more a cliche than it is a fact. I guess people feel bad for him because he tends to find himself in bad cars, but they shouldn't because he ended up in all of them except the first one of his own accord and is still a gazillionaire and double world champion anyway.

 

A lot of what you wrote about Alonso is an opinion rather than fact e.g. one great season in ten years, some may think he has more, some may think he had less. It could be that many see him as the best because they think that, not because people are telling them to...

 

He does have his share of blindly fanatical fans like anybody but I think he ranks behind Raikkonen, Hamilton and these days Verstappen in that regard.

[SophieB]

For instance, when Max Mosley quite justifiably called out Mr Stewart as a 1930s music hall man (hope I got the decade right).
I just said something badly received about Johnny Herbert, who is a lovely chap by all all accounts.
Fact is, he had an accident that slowed him down. Just like Jackie Stewart does look daft.
Leaving out team/driver bs, what sacred cows have you stumbled across in racing?

If you are deeming the response you got in that thread as that of striking a 'sacred cow', then literally every driver. You weren't insulted, no-one was angry with you, it was just politely pointed out there was more to his story than you'd initially presented.

As to this thread, I will give a pre-emptive warning. In the past, 'unpopular opinions' threads have failed because people have used them as excuses to express views that break the board rules, as if they somehow didn't apply all of a sudden. They do!

[hittheapex]

This does have a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy about it though. Sacred cow could be interpreted in the following way

 

A: "Driver X is a sacred cow...(says something critical about said driver)"

B,C,D: "You're wrong, that's not true!"

A: "See, told you so."

 

I think a sacred cow on a fan by fan basis is where somebody uses double standards for their sacred cow e.g. one driver running somebody off the road is "just racing" and in another case is dirty driving. Or a driver spinning out while pushing "had nothing to lose/just trying to get the most out of the car," and another driver "cracked under pressure."  Etc etc.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Drivers are important but It is a matter of opinions and social media that make the differences toward past and present drivers. Specially when a driver is safe from the social medias, the judgement on him/her isn't dramatic.

 

Current domination of british social medias have influence on everything and most of the times they are very biased. People have to watch them because of the lack of coverage in their native language and it automatically makes fans view affected by British medias policy specially for new generation.

 

We are talking about Ayrton Senna as the past but we have forgotten Alain Prost who is available now. It is just the way it is unfortunately.

Edited by RYARLE, 28 October 2015 - 08:25.

[SophieB]

We have forgotten Alain Prost? 

 

edited to add: not trying to be rude, genuinely puzzled.

[Retrofly]

Raikkonen, only becuase his fans will come after you with pitch forks if you say anything detrimental or question his ability

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

We have forgotten Alain Prost? 

 

edited to add: not trying to be rude, genuinely puzzled.

Not all of us 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Raikkonen, only becuase his fans will come after you with pitch forks if you say anything detrimental or question his ability

Leave them alone, they think they know what they are doing.

 

Note: The above quote is used for joking.

[Nonesuch]

This does have a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy about it though.

 

Sure, but I suspect it happens most often when the middle ground has lost interest and has moved on to a new topic, leaving only those who refuse to acknowledge 'the bad side' and those determined to focus on said 'bad side' effectively shouting at, or past, each other. In that sense these discussions are almost by definition irrelevant, because they take place between people who are extremely unlikely to change their mind or nuance their interpretation of events.

 

As for drivers who are above criticism, various factors can play a role: drivers who have been killed or injured while driving are often seen differently from those who have retired on their own, and nationalistic excitement can obviously be a significant influence on how events are described.

[Retrofly]

Leave them alone, they think they know what they are doing.

 

Note: The above quote is used for joking.

 

You're in for it now!

[sennafan24]

We are talking about Ayrton Senna as the past but we have forgotten Alain Prost who is available now. It is just the way it is unfortunately.

Despite my username, it does bug me that Prost sometimes gets forgotten when the greats are listed. Without question, Prost should be mentioned in the same sentence as Senna and Schumi (in terms of driving ability)

Edited by sennafan24, 28 October 2015 - 08:43.

[SophieB]

You're in for it now!

 

This seems like the self-fulfilling prophecy discussed. Are you going to keep saying things like this until someone gets offended and you can go "see?"

[taran]

I think Justin Wilson would be a good example. By all accounts, he was a very nice guy and his death was a tragic accident because he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. It wasn’t a self-inflicted driver error or such. So people are preconditioned to like him and defend his actions.

 

But on the other hand, you could argue he shouldn’t have been in that car. He wasn’t properly insured and wasn’t earning enough to provide properly for his family if the tales are to believed. He had tried open wheel racing and while obviously talented, the breaks just weren’t there. So perhaps he should have done the mature thing and either gotten a (safer) job that paid the bills or gone for a steady career in sports cars or GT racing.

 

But many people prefer to think he was right to pursue his passion and leave it to fans & colleagues to pick up the tab and help provide for his family. So any rational discussion about his death and the consequences or other drivers who should perhaps stop but go on because they love what they are doing is off the table.

[Retrofly]

This seems like the self-fulfilling prophecy discussed. Are you going to keep saying things like this until someone gets offended and you can go "see?"

It was more of a light hearted joke....

[oetzi]

If you are deeming the response you got in that thread as that of striking a 'sacred cow', then literally every driver. You weren't insulted, no-one was angry with you,

I never said i was or they were. It was more that horrible feeling you get when you realise you've trodden on the cat.

it was just politely pointed out there was more to his story than you'd initially presented.

As I well know (and went on to say).

It was the fact I felt the need to explain in full and qualify and justify what I said that made me start this thread, nothing else

[oetzi]

Current domination of british social medias have influence on everything and most of the times they are very biased. People have to watch them because of the lack of coverage in their native language and it automatically makes fans view affected by British medias policy

I think that's actually a lot less true now than it was 15 years ago. Back then you had a couple of publications, and what they said I'd pretty much what most people thought. And they weren't exactly even handed in their coverage. But given where I am, I won't kick that particular Brahma Bull right now

[superdelphinus]

We have forgotten Alain Prost?

edited to add: not trying to be rude, genuinely puzzled.

Who?

[SophieB]

I never said i was or they were. It was more that horrible feeling you get when you realise you've trodden on the cat.

As I well know (and went on to say).

It was the fact I felt the need to explain in full and qualify and justify what I said that made me start this thread, nothing else 

 

You're conflating people being offended/upset by opinions because they are sensitive about them and people simply correcting omissions/mistakes without emotion though.

[hittheapex]

Sure, but I suspect it happens most often when the middle ground has lost interest and has moved on to a new topic, leaving only those who refuse to acknowledge 'the bad side' and those determined to focus on said 'bad side' effectively shouting at, or past, each other. In that sense these discussions are almost by definition irrelevant, because they take place between people who are extremely unlikely to change their mind or nuance their interpretation of events.

 

As for drivers who are above criticism, various factors can play a role: drivers who have been killed or injured while driving are often seen differently from those who have retired on their own, and nationalistic excitement can obviously be a significant influence on how events are described.

 

There's much to be said for this. Discussions get to a point where it's a waste of time continuing. Whether you're right or wrong (or think that ) doesn't matter, the difference is too fundamental for compromise. I'll give it a good go but I've left, or checked in less frequently from some threads because it's more fun-and stress free- for me to reminisce about something more neutral...like the test photos thread here, or have a constructive debate about something else. The Red Bull engine thread has had some good contributions but a lot of it has just become a "yes it is, no it isn't!" back and forth for almost a hundred damn pages now.

[TomNokoe]

When it looked like JB was leaving, I realised how much I'd miss him, despite how hard a time he gave Lewis. He's lovely

[oetzi]

You're conflating people being offended/upset by opinions because they are sensitive about them and people simply correcting omissions/mistakes without emotion though.

No, it was my feeling that I should in some way justify and expand on my opinion that made me start this thread. Not what was said to me.

If you see what I mean.

[Tsarwash]

Jim Clark. I don't think that I've ever heard a single bad word said about him.

[chunder27]

I do not think any driver or for that matter sportsman is untouchable regarding comment.

There is taste for sure, but some of the things Michael did on track will always ensure a difference of opinion about him. Similarly to guys like Gilles

These men are held with affection as they gave pleasure to us.

[Anja]

We have forgotten Alain Prost? 

 

edited to add: not trying to be rude, genuinely puzzled.

 

How so? I see him being accused of cheating and such almost on regular basis. Maybe not on this forum and mostly by Senna fans, but still...

[Henri Greuter]

Not an F1 driver but he is still alive and I rarely hear anything bad about him:

Four time Indy winner Rick Mears.

 

 

 

While on other fora I have seen how people go ballistic when you dare to be negative about AJ Foyt

 

 

 

Edit: You also hear rarely anything bad aboud the third 4 time winner: Al Unser Sr.....

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 October 2015 - 10:01.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

How so? I see him being accused of cheating and such almost on regular basis. Maybe not on this forum and mostly by Senna fans, but still...

That is another example of social media effects.

some F1 fans think that Ayrton Senna was a good guy and Alain Prost was a bad guy. The truth is they both were competitors. Ayrton Senna's driving policy in most of the critical situations was "Do it and you crash with me, don't do it and I am going to win" and that put drivers in danger but there is a little mention of that.

Edited by RYARLE, 28 October 2015 - 10:13.

[taran]

That is another example of social media effects.

some F1 fans think that Ayrton Senna was a good guy and Alain Prost was a bad guy. The truth is they both were competitors. Ayrton Senna's driving policy in most of the critical situations was "Do it and you crash with me, don't do it and I am going to win" and that put drivers in danger but there is a little mention of that.

 

Actually, Alain Prost did his cheating off the track and was a real gentleman on the track while Senna did his cheating on track and was a gentleman off the track.

[Peat]

Massa enjoyed a break from criticism for few months after he took a spring to the head. Thankfully we're back to open-season on him now. 

[oetzi]

Actually, Alain Prost did his cheating off the track and was a real gentleman on the track while Senna did his cheating on track and was a gentleman off the track.

Ha, nicely put. Reminds me of the rugby/football contrast which goes something like: Football is a game for gentlemen that is played by hooligans. Rugby is a game for hooligans that is played by gentlemen.

[superdelphinus]

I used to be a formula one driver like massa, until I took a spring to the knee

[SonJR]

Gilles seems to shielded from all criticism because of his wild driving and Ferrari links; it's assumed by practically everyone that he would have won a WDC but his driving history showed he could be patchy.

Imho, the same applies to Kubica, albeit for different reasons.

[RedBaron]

We should ease off Maldonado, remember he won that race that one time and then moments later saved that boy with a broken foot from a burning Williams garage.

 

Edited by RedBaron, 28 October 2015 - 11:10.

[sjakie]

Not an F1 driver but he is still alive and I rarely hear anything bad about him:

Four time Indy winner Rick Mears.

 

 

 

While on other fora I have seen how people go ballistic when you dare to be negative about AJ Foyt

 

 

 

Edit: You also hear rarely anything bad aboud the third 4 time winner: Al Unser Sr.....

 

 

Henri

 

Indeed, never heart a bad word about Mears. Ditto for Unser sr. How about Luyendyk, Danny Sullivan, Jimmy Vasser (oh wait, something about milk), Scott Dixon, Dario Franchitti etc?

[Mila]

I'm editing like a god, so I can be as mean as I want to be.

 

[milestone 11]

While on other fora I have seen how people go ballistic when you dare to be negative about AJ Foyt
 
Henri

Mmmhh, does this include considering the ethics of his farm?