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#1 robert dick

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 06:28

I am particularly interested in the Delage contribution to the American racing scene in the years from 1915 to 1922.

My name is Neill Murdoch and the surviving Type S Delage is owned by my father and has been for the last 40 years. I am at present looking more carefully into its history generally and, relevantly to this thread, its history in the USA. This is my first contribution to this forum, so bear with me.
 
Going back a step to 1914, it seems that there were two Type Y Delages in the USA. One, at least, was modified to suit the 300cid formula which was introduced in 1915, although what was done to it is unclear. It may be that a new block was made to reduce the capacity from 6.2 litres (380.4 cid) to something close to 300cid or perhaps liners were used. I note that Robert Dick in his "Auto Racing Comes of Age" (at p. 146) says that it was a new block  and that the cylinder dimensions were 93 x 180. This would give a capacity of 4.89 litres or 298.5 cid. Again, according to Robert this car was raced by Claude Newhouse and then John De Palma, by whom it was crashed at Indianapolis on 23 May 1915 before suffering a mechanical failure in the race itself and being raced subsequently by Louis Chevrolet.

The second Type Y is more of a mystery. It seems to disappear from view after the 1914 Indianapolis race. In any event, the list of A.A.A. Contest Board registrants for the 1916 season (courtesy Don Capps elsewhere in this forum) shows Harry S. Harkness as owner of 6 cars, including three Delages of 274.3 cid (no doubt his Type S cars), the Peusun special, a 21 litre Benz and a 311.6 cid Delage. This is an odd engine size, given that it exceeds the limit of the formula but is markedly less than the original 380.4 cid. Perhaps it was granted some dispensation to run, or perhaps it was in another specification at the time of any race under the formula. It is probably the car raced by Limberg at Sheepshead Bay on 9 October 1915 although I have not found any photographic evidence which would help to identify it. It is clear enough that the three Harkness Type S cars did not arrive in the USA until some time later.

What had happened is that one of the Type S cars had arrived in the USA in the middle of 1915. This car was owned by David Joyce and raced for him by, or given by him to, Barney Oldfield. A colourful account of their conversation in this regard appears in William Nolan's biography of Barney.

How had Joyce come to acquire the first Type S? Letters from Louis Delage to Rene Thomas in early 1915 make it clear that by the middle of February in that year one car had been sold to Thomas at a discounted (as far as Delage was concerned) price of 20,000 francs and that Delage was insistent on being paid before delivering the car. Thomas had also apparently told Paul Bablot (1914 Delage team driver) that a car could be bought and Bablot was asking Delage for the same deal, greatly to the irritation of the latter. Thomas was no doubt well connected in the USA and, perhaps finding himself unable to get there for the 1915 season of racing, probably sold the car on to Joyce without further ado. The other three cars stayed at the Delage factory until bought by Harkness a year or so later.

The Joyce Delage had its first outing with Barney Oldfield at the Maywood Speedway on 2 August 1915. According to the Chicago Examiner (3 August 1915), it lapped at 110.16 mph over 5 laps of the two mile track, which would have made it competitive with any car in the category running at that time, including the Peugeots of Resta and Burman and, had it been operational, the Mercedes of De Palma.

Barney was practising for the World's Challenge Race, a four way contest between he, Resta and Burman in Peugeots and Cooper in a Stutz. Oldfield started on pole from Resta, Cooper and Burman. If the report as to the car's speed was accurate, at this level it was not sustainable and the car's performance in the 100 mile race was disappointing. It ran a dismal fourth throughout and did not finish. Resta won at 102.85 mph over the 100 mile distance, from Cooper in the Stutz with Burman third.

It was the start of a long racing association between Oldfield and the Delage which, while never successful in outright terms, at least provided Barney with a number of finishes reasonably high up in the field and certainly never ended in the catastrophes which beset Harry Harkness and his team when they took to the boards in 1916.

I will return to this story when I can, and welcome in the interim any correction or clarification.  

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 

 

- The "second" 6,2-litre Type Y (not a Desmo-Delage), driven by Albert Guyot in the 1914 Indy 500, was shipped back to France after the race, and converted for touring use. A photo was even published in the contemporary press - I cannot find it at the moment.
The Automobile, 22 February 1917, page 397:
delage1.jpg

= = = =
Joyce Delage:
In 1915, David Joyce was one of the wealthiest men in the country, on the same level as for example Harry Harkness or Willie Vanderbilt. So there was enough money to buy a Delage. The connection between Joyce and the French factory was made by William Bradley, representative of the Indy Speedway in Europe and European correspondent of the magazines Motor Age and The Automobile. Motor Age was based in Chicago.

= = = =
The Harkness Delages - from The Automobile, 23 March 1916, pages 546 and 547:
delage2.jpg
delage3.jpg
 

 

 



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#2 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 07:32

So does this mean that the Guyot Type Y did not race in the US again after Indianapolis 1914?

 

And that therefore the car that Limberg raced at Sheepshead Bay to 6th in the Astor Cup on 9 October 1915 was the Thomas Type Y?

 

The Thomas car was owned by Wilson into 1915 (at least) and had been raced by Louis Chevrolet as late as June 1915. I can find nothing as to its fate between then and the appearance of a Delage owned by Harkness, apparently with a 311 cid engine, in September 1915. I have been wondering whether a single Type S could have been brought in by Harkness at that time but the lack of any fanfare at all makes this unlikely. Every reference, such as the one in The Automobile above, is to a team of three arriving at the same time. Also, Harkness was himself the nominated driver of the Delage up until a few days before the Astor Cup, when Limberg stepped in. Had it been a new car the press would have been quick to report it as such, especially as it would have been a likely front runner.

 

Thank you to those who have expressed their welcome to the forum. And now a new thread too....

 

Neill

 

 



#3 robert dick

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 09:51

- The Guyot 6,2-litre Type Y did not reappear in the US after the 1914 Indy 500 - Motor Age, 20 May 1915:
delage4.jpg

- The Delage owned by Harkness and driven by Limberg in the Astor Cup/October 1915 was the ex-René Thomas/1914 Indy winning and ex-Wilson car. The specification table in The Automobile/14 October 1915 quoted the cylinder dimensions as 3,66 x 7,09 inches, 298 cubic inches.
A photo of the last starting row shows that Limberg's car (#19) was a Type Y and not a 4,5-litre Desmo Type S - Motor Age, 14 October 1915:
delage5.jpg

Limberg went to Paris in December 1915 to buy the first (for Harkness) 4,5-litre - Motor Age, 20 January 1916:.
delage6.jpg



#4 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:47

Sadly lacking the time for a serious contribution, I would still like to draw attention to the Peusun Special, a car that always greatly confused me. It looked nothing like a Peugeot or a Sunbeam, but had a Delage S-type radiator and Delage engine specifications - I think it belongs here in this thread!

#5 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 11:55

- The Guyot 6,2-litre Type Y did not reappear in the US after the 1914 Indy 500 - Motor Age, 20 May 1915:
delage4.jpg


Funny how easy it is to suck me back into research mode, as I was wondering how a magazine like Motor Age could make such a foolish mistake regarding question number one, before I realized the date of the article, and that, at the time, the Sunbeam had indeed not raced in the US, spending its time at the Packard factory, iirc.

Anyway, the thought struck me that there weren't that many Delages racing in the US, and that it should be possible to track them for some time, at least. Two Y-Types, the four S-Types and the Chiron/Moriceau 15S8 much later should cover it, right? Of these, one of the Y-Types and the 15S8 can be discounted at once, because they returned to Europe without delay, so that leaves just five cars, plus the Peusun Special which must have contained some Delage parts at the very least, and may have competed as a Delage later on.

The first to come to the US was the the Y-Type imported by Omar Toft for Leotia K. Northam in the winter of 1913/'14, to be driven by Bert Dingley at Santa Monica in February, a wholly Californian enterprise. There's a lovely tug-of-love story involved here, with Toft arriving in New York to find out that Dingley was about to drive the car, and both getting "lost" on the journey through the continent, so in the end the car never ran, and Mrs. Northam (who had earlier run a Simplex for Mr. Toft) abruptly ended her career as a car owner. There's supposedly a "juicy" subtext to all of this, but nothing that can be verified to historical standards. In any case, the car was apparently repo'ed by Louis Delage, and driven to Indy fame by René Thomas a few months later, so there must've been some very long faces on the left coast in May!

This car was then sold to James E. Wilson of Rochester/NY, who campaigned it extensively for the next 16 months or so. Main drivers were Claude Newhouse and John de Palma, both of New York, but also Billy Knipper and Louis Chevrolet on occasion, and perhaps others, too. Last entry for Wilson was probably Newark/NJ on Labor Day 1915, and a month later Carl Limberg drove the car for Harry Harkness, identified then as the 1914 Indy winner. As to its specification, it was reportedly 446 CID when Toft brought it to the US, which may have been phantasy, journalistic licence or bragging rights of a proud owner, or maybe, just maybe, its engine had been enlarged for the trip to the US? But then, why was it back to its usual 380 CID (105*180 mm) when it competed at Indy?! In any case, it was modified to 93*180 mm for the 1915 Indy contest, presumably with a new block, which is the easiest way of conversion - pistons are semi-regular replacement parts anyway, and everything else can be reused. The 311 CID which were listed for the car in 1916 are easily achieved by a slight rebore (or another replacement block) of 95 mm. The 300 CID formula was in force for only a handful of races in 1915, so not really relevant here.

So what happened next to the car: it was evidently entered for Eddie O'Donnell at Sheepshead Bay in May 1916, but did not run. In this race, of course, Harkness ran his trio of S-Types for the first time (for Carl Limberg, Jack Le Cain and Jules de Vigne), so perhaps he just lost interest in the older car. I can find no evidence of other appearances for the Y-Type throughout 1916, but we'll keep it in mind when we start tracking the S-Types in earnest. The first question here is: was one car lost in the fatal Limberg accident? By all evidence, yes, but perhaps some parts survived to be used in the other two cars - or, perhaps in the Peusun Special??? In any case, three Delages were originally entered for Limberg, Le Cain and Franchi at Indy that year, but only two arrived for Le Cain and de Vigne, and Franchi running the Peusun Special instead. Those three cars saw out the season for Harkness, with Bob Moore replacing the injured Le Cain, then Hughie Hughes taking over before Le Cain returned in September. The Peusun was apparently retired after another fatality in July, but the team does not appear to have entered the Y-Type instead, the drivers just taking turns in sitting out a race or two.

Le Cain and de Vigne comprised the two-man Harkness team in 1917, and in 1918 the former riding mechanic Nick Zwick took over for the latter, with at least one (nominal?) entry for aviation star De Lloyd Thompson before the team fell apart. By this time, Barney Oldfield's career had ended pretty much also, and the Delage/Miller had actually last appeared late 1917, driven by Eddie Pullen at Ascot. Late enough that it can't be the car that had appeared earlier that year, in fact September of 1917, when a Mr. L. L. Lane, supposedly of San Francisco but more likely of Chicago, entered a "new" Delage for local star driver Percy Ford at Chicago's Maywood Park. The same car appeared at least one more time in October, and there's some evidence that it had actually a Duesenberg engine, but more importantly, with both surviving Harkness S-Types and the Oldfield car still around, it pretty much follows that it was the old Y-Type of 1914 Indy fame. In 1918, Ford entered for a race at Sheepshead Bay in a Duesenberg Special, but did not appear, instead New Englander Jimmy Meyer drove the car which at least one source, perhaps in error, refered to as a "Harkness Delage" - both Le Cain and Zwick were entered in the S-Types, although the latter did not appear, it seems. Meyer, by the way, had driven a Pugh Special for John E. Pugh of Rhode Island in 1916/'17, a long time car owner who had also employed Le Cain, another New Englander, for a time. Not much in the way of hard facts, but quite a lot of evidence.

Let it be noted that it is possible that Meyer actually drove Zwick's Delage instead of the Duesenberg Special. At the same time, it is possible that the Lane Delage really was fitted with a Duesenberg engine, and entered as a Duesenberg Special in 1918, and that someone recognized the chassis as a (former) Harkness Delage. 1918 is an especially difficult year for research, what with the war raging in Europe and the US involvement nearing, and there is very little (and confusing) info around, and almost no pictures at all. The same year, however, a Delage starts appearing in IMCA events, at first in Iowa about a month after Meyer's last appearance with his Duesenberg Special in Ohio, and driven by long-time IMCA stars George Clark and/or Fred Horey. Back then, the IMCA was a travelling circus show, sanctioning "hippodromed" racing at State and County Fairs all over the Midwest and at some venues on the East and West coasts as well. Its value in sporting terms may have been questionable, but they used (up) quite a lot of old racing war horses, and the Delage kept appearing on and off in IMCA events until as late as 1929! Pictures from the mid twenties show a #37 Peugeot EX5 and a #36 Premier Indycar of 1916, both in spotless white and immaculate condition, which goes to show that the club and its drivers took care quite a lot of the cars. Sadly, I've yet to find a picture of the Delage - reports of IMCA events in the press are sometimes very erratic, and historical accuracy was clearly not an issue at the time! I've seen the Delage listed under the #36 which the picture shows was clearly a Premier, and the same car is sometimes listed as a Peugeot, Delage, Premier or something else entirely - maybe they mixed up parts, exchanged engines and what not. Ray Claypool was the main driver of the Delage, but Swede Anderson, Bo Murray, Johnny Watters, King Kelly, Ray Lampkin, D. C. Riner, Raymond Lavigne, Jules Derene and George Lyons were all listed at least once.

The really important question here is, was the IMCA Delage the Y-Type or one of the remaining S-Types? And this question is not easy to answer without pictures to proof one way or the other. I personally feel that it was one of the Harkness S-Types, likely the one driven by Le Cain previously, for reasons which I will give shortly. To me, the Y-Type seems to have become what I call the "New York Delage" - a car that was raced in (sometimes very) minor events on the East coast, mostly in New York, until 1932! Drivers would've been Joe di Napoli (and Jimmy Flarety?) of Pennsylvania, Joe Tolson of Maryland or New Jersey, George Bastian, Haskell Slattery, Fred Lagerman, Floyd Marshall and Archie Waterman, all of New York. Earl Vance of Pennsylvania drove a "Hispano-Delage" on occasion, which sounds like a Delage fitted with one of the popular Hispano-Suiza aircraft engines, but I'm not sure it can be the same car. However, S-Types are becoming rare at this time (1924) also!

Let's see what happened to the remaining Harkness car and the Oldfield S-Type: in early 1919, Joe Hayes from Central California entered a Delage at Santa Monica, but did not start - probably the Oldfield car, and perhaps with its original engine back in place? Later that year, Nick Zwick was entered at Sheepshead Bay in a White Special, which we will find out was an S-Type fitted with a Duesenberg straight 8 engine - the car was eventually driven by Ralph de Palma, who retired early. A few months later, in early 1920, Bennie Hill (who was originally from New York before moving out to California) ran the White Special at the opening meeting at Beverly Hills, and pictures exist which clearly show it to be an S-Type, with a righthand exhaust that matches that of a Duesenberg 8. As late as December of 1922, Louis Hansen of San Francisco, entered a "De Lage Dues." at Beverly Hills, but qualified too slow. The next year, he drove a Duesenberg Special at San Luis Obispo, which may very well have been the same car. The ex-Oldfield car, meanwhile, was apparently purchased by the Cunningham Motor Co. of California, and raced by Ralph Snoddy and Omar Toft, who crashed fatally with it in late 1921. Snoddy, later to become an expert motor boat racer (mostly with Miller engines), last raced the car at Beverly in March of 1922, and in December one Bobby Dunn (who would, for a short time, own an ex-Jimmy Murphy Miller in 1924) was entered in a Delage alongside Hansen and his ex-White Special - unless we have overlooked an entity entirely, that's the last time all four Delages were still active.

One of the California cars may have become the Hispo-Delage, but I think that's rather unlikely. When did your car arrive in Oz, do you know, Neill?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 31 October 2015 - 14:14.


#6 john medley

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:13

1924?

#7 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:55

We don't have a precise date for the arrival of the Type S in Australia but it was probably late 1924 or very early (January) 1925. The first press report of its presence here in Melbourne was 30 January 1925.
Neill

#8 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 07:28

Precise enough, and it makes sense - after sitting around for a year or two, shipping it to Australia becomes an economically interesting option. Both the New York and IMCA Delages were still racing regularly then, so it has to be one of the Califronia cars, and again that makes sense because of the geography. If I'm right, the Oldfield car would be the likeliest candidate, because it was apparently already refitted with its original engine, but it could have happened to the Duesey-engined car, too. Are there early pictures which may (or may not) show evidence of a modified engine cover (for the Duesey exhaust)?

#9 robert dick

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 11:11

The ex-1914 Indy 500-Guyot 6,2-litre Delage converted for touring use (Motor Age, 11 January 1917):
delage3.jpg



#10 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 12:53

Fascinating - not a bad way to commute, if I may say so!

Robert, do you have any info on the Peusun Special? I'm beginning to think it got the engine (and rad) from the Limberg wreck.

#11 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 22:52

The re-bodied Guyot Delage looks superb and would have been a great road car. The new body has been nicely detailed, including a re-located fuel tank . The side exhaust, if that is what it is, might have been a bit wearing and there seems not to be any hood (roof). Impressive given what was happening in France at the time.

 

The Peusun is difficult. The radiator certainly looks very much like a Type S Delage radiator, and the overall appearance is so similar to the Delage that at least one author has mis-described it as one.

 

There is a photo in the Detroit Public Library which shows a race at Sheephead Bay in 1916; although a number of the cars in the photo are not described accurately, I believe that number 12 is the Peusun and that the event is the Metropolitan Cup on 13 May 1916 or one of the supporting races on that day. Hopefully this link will work in some form:

 

http://digitalcollec...slandora:170662

 

The Limberg car was very badly damaged on that day, including by fire. It was probably destroyed in the sense that it did not re-appear thereafter as a car in its own right, at least as far as I am aware. Whether anything was salvageable I cannot say, but the radiator would certainly have been damaged and it was probably torn off. I suspect that Harkness acquired a large quantity of spares with the Delages when he bought them and, in the period between March and May 1916 he fitted a spare Delage radiator on the Peusun. It is interesting to speculate whether this was done deliberately to give the car the appearance of a Delage or simply because it needed a new rad and the Delage unit was on the shelf and either new or nearly so.

 

To speculate further, perhaps the Delage rad was fitted because a spare Delage motor was fitted to the car? It seems unlikely but I wonder why, Michael, you think that the car carried Delage bits other than the rad?

 

Neill



#12 john medley

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 03:47

The Motor (The National Magazine of Motoring) November 1915 Page 49 has a photo of Barney Oldfield with "his" Delage Type S. Are there any clues here that this could be the car in Australia?

#13 robert dick

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 08:42

Peusun:

I agree with Neill. The Peusun retained the 4,5-litre Sunbeam engine for the 1916 Indy 500, with the radiator and some body parts coming from a 4,5-litre Delage, either from the car in which Limberg had the accident a few weeks earlier or from spare parts.



#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 18:17

I may have been misled by the fact that the 4-cylinder Sunbeam and the S-Type had the same cylinder dimensions, but I still find it strange that the Peusun had a Delage radiator. Often, a change of engine was accompanied by a change of radiator, but of course, there could've been other reasons. And Neill, in those days there were no spare engines - if anything, people had a spare chassis for their one engine! Either the Peusun had the engine from the Limberg wreck, or no Delage engine at all. It would be interesting to find a picture of the Peusun at Sheepshead Bay!

Robert, do you have any info on the chassis of the Peusun? There weren't an awful lot of Peugeot donor cars around then...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 05 November 2015 - 18:18.


#15 robert dick

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 07:56

The frame of the Peusun came from the 5,6-litre Peugeot driven by Georges Boillot in the 1914 Indy 500, and later by Dario Resta in the 1915 San Francisco races, and the engine from the 4,5-litre Sunbeam driven by Noel van Raalte in the 1915 Indy and Chicago 500.
 



#16 Michael Ferner

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 09:18

Many thanks! Do you have a source for that?

#17 robert dick

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 10:28

Exclusion principle.



#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 16:02

How do we exclude the two 1912 GP Peugeots, which went to America? I lose them both from my radar in the second half of 1914.

#19 robert dick

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 06:28

Longer wheelbase of the 1912 GP/1913 Indy Peugeot, and many chassis details.



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#20 robert dick

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 05:51

Correction:
The chassis of the Peusun did not come from the ex-Resta 5,6-litre Peugeot but from the 3-litre Peugeot owned by the Harkness team.



#21 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 23:08

Does that mean that this quote from the Ogren/Miller thread is no longer valid?

Probable that, in December 1915/January 1916, Burman bought the 3-litre Peugeot owned by the Harkness team. But I think that during the 1915 season he always used the "old" 5,6-litre chassis with three different engines.



#22 robert dick

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 06:36

There is still the probability that the transaction took place a few months later, meaning that the Burman team/estate bought the 3-litre Peugeot chassis from the Harkness team in the late summer of 1916 (after being used in the Peusun) to assemble the Erbes.



#23 robert dick

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 06:35

Differences between the radiator cowlings of Devigne's #21 Delage - 1916 Indy 300 (Stanford University Libraries):
delage11.jpg
and Franchi's #23 Peusun:
delage12.jpg
 



#24 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 07:43

I have been thinking about the question of Type S Delage radiators and in particular the strange fact that the cars did not race at Lyon in 1914 bearing radiator badges. This despite the reality that only a few weeks before the race two cars were practising with such badges. Also with registration plates, but that is a different issue.

 

Of note to me in Robert's pictures are the similarities between the two radiators. Neither bears a badge, both have a shallow V shape and both have a bead framing the honeycomb core. I think both are polished brass. I suspect that the slightly different overall impression which each gives is the result of the different height from which each photo is taken and, in relation to the Devigne car, the fact that the bonnet is a poor fit and/or loosely closed (the front strap is visible around the front of the radiator). It may be that the shape of the inlet is different but it is difficult to be confident.

 

The view of the radiator on the Peusun is clearer and is one of the few in which one can see the buttresses at the foot of the radiator where it meets the chassis frame. As per the radiator on the Murdoch Type S. I would be pretty confident that both are from a Type S Delage. Cetainly the Peusun has neither a Peugeot nor a Sunbeam radiator.

 

Also, I wonder what colour these two cars were at the time? Limberg's car was reportedly orange at Sheepshead Bay just over two weeks before these photos were taken and its looks almost black in the photos, as does Devigne's car. I am sure that #21 got a coat of paint in the time available, perhaps mandated by the fire which occurred on 13 May and which made quite a mess of its external appearance.



#25 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 04:37

There is a blurry photo on page 477 of The Motor (edition of 6 June 1916) which bears a portrait of the late Carl Limberg and a second photo which shows the Limberg Type S after its accident. The car is lying on its side at the foot of the banking; the front axle has been torn off but the radiator remains in place, albeit battered and pushed back onto the motor. A fire marshal is visible still attending to the fire.

 

The extent of any fire damage is not visible but I would have thought that there would have been much of the car which was salvageable, contrary to my impression earlier. Whether any such attempt was made is unknown but I have found no evidence to suggest that the Limberg car remained an entity in its own right.

 

I have only an old pretty poor photocopy of the page; does anyone have a good quality copy?

 

What we can say is that the car could not be repaired in time for Indianapolis less than three weeks later. The entry allocated to Limberg was filled by Franchi in the Peusun. The Devigne car from Sheepshead Bay was re-painted and given #21; the third type S owned by Harkness was rolled out for the first time in competition for Le Cain and given #22. It was in its original form from the Delage factory, light blue with only minor modifications to its bodywork around the scuttle. The bolster tank was still in place and not covered by a streamlined tail as had been fitted to the other cars. It was photographed in Gasoline Alley (I think that is right - in any event, the same location as the two photos Robert has posted of the Devigne car and the Peusun) with Oldfield behind the wheel looking especially glum. Perhaps it was faster than his car, but this is unlikely. Le Cain qualified the car but it broke its crankshaft after doing so and did not start. Oldfield gave his type S, and the type S generally, its best ever finish of 5th outright in a major race.

 

Devigne started the race but was replaced by Le Cain for reasons not recorded. Perhaps he was faster, or the senior driver, although both are mere guesses. Perhaps Devigne was struggling. Regardless, Le Cain took over but crashed on lap 61, injuring himself to the extent that he was said to be hovering between life and death, suffering from head and other injuries. Happily for him, he made a good recovery and was back behind the wheel of a Harkness Delage by September 1916.

 

What damage was sustained by the car I cannot say. It seems to have been assumed that it was badly damaged but this is unclear. I believe that it was repaired and back on a race track at least by the time that Le Cain made his return. Maybe it was a combination of bits from the two crashed cars, but it seems to have become the car that raced bearing number 18, usually with Le Cain at the wheel, over the second half of the 1916 season. Devigne was usually behind the wheel of #16 for the rest of that year.



#26 robert dick

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 16:10

Metropolitan Trophy, Sheepshead Bay, New York, May 1916 - Limberg in the Delage before the Start
(from the Automobile Journal, 25 May 1916):
limberg3.jpg

 

Start of the Metropolitan Trophy - Limberg with #6 Delage:
limberg2.jpg
 



#27 robert dick

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:13

Peusun chassis (from Indianapolis News, 20 May 1916):
peusun21.jpg
= = = = = =
Colors - 1916 Indy 300
Oldfield's #15 Delage - blue
Devigne's #21 Delage - yellow
Franchi's #23 Peusun - orange
(from Indianapolis News, 30 May 1916):
peusun23.jpg
 



#28 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 January 2016 - 19:10

The Arizona Republic, Phoenix (AZ), Nov 15, 1921

1765_28_1152_2827.jpg


EDIT: Sorry, can't seem to work this out. No time to type it up, either. :(

Edited by Michael Ferner, 09 January 2016 - 19:18.


#29 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 04:51

It took me a while trying in vain to subscribe to The Arizona Republic (they won't let me do so from here) but finally I managed to decipher, using my newly acquired magnifier, that this article was in The Arizona Republican of 15 November 1921 (page12), which is available through the Library of Congress.

 

This is the link: 

 

The article contains a lot more detail than the average newspaper article as to the background of the cars. It may not be accurate, but detailed it is.

 

It shows that the car driven by Toft was badly damaged ("almost totally destroyed") in an accident in Phoenix which was almost a re-run of that which killed Limberg and Palotti in 1916. And that it was to be sent to Los Angeles for salvage.

 

The real insight is that the Cunningham Motor Co is said to have owned the Delage / Duesenberg special (the White special driven by Bennet Hill at Beverly Hills) as well as the car crashed by Toft.

 

Of course, it is incorrect that Harkness imported four cars, although he did import three and there was a fourth, being the Joyce / Oldfield car.

 

I think that there is reason to believe that the Toft car had been the Oldfield / Miller engined car, re-fitted with its original motor. This appears from the reference in the article to the Toft car's engine as 289 cid, well in excess of the 180 cid limit in place in 1921.

 

It is also worth noting that the article is close to being correct that, of the four cars, one did a few laps at Sheepshead Bay before being withdrawn (Limberg car, not withdrawn but crashed), one ended up with a Duesenberg engine (White special), one was the Toft car(ex Oldfield etc) and one was unaccounted for (the other Harkness team car raced by Lecain and Devigne in 1916-1917).

 

What is a bit difficult is to know which car turned up at Beverly Hill in March 1922 with Ralph Snoddy, apparently with a Delage engine? Was this the White Special re-fitted with a spare Delage engine? The Toft car salvaged and repaired? The other car?


Edited by NeillMurdoch, 01 March 2016 - 06:18.


#30 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 04:54

I will try again to post the link as something went wrong first time :

 

http://chroniclingam...15/ed-1/seq-12/

 

NM


Edited by NeillMurdoch, 01 March 2016 - 06:19.


#31 Michael Ferner

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 20:43

Oh, I'm sorry I put you through so much trouble, Neill!! :(

 

I found this article during "regular" research several weeks back, and meanwhile simply forgot about it! :o

 

Yes, the main piece of news is that Cunningham owned a second Delage. Snoddy was entered by Cunningham in March 1922, so I always presumed it to have been the Toft car. However, the Delage/Duesenberg ran as late as November of the same year, so it's difficult to imagine they changed the engine back and forth.



#32 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 22:13

No problem at all, Michael. You are way out front.

 

There are some imprecisely dated photos of the Snoddy car in Griff Borgeson's article in AQ Vol 24/3 which he obtained from B.B. Korn in Santa Monica. Mr Korn was evidently a friend of Snoddy. One shows a new, unpainted body on the car and a new crank handle arrangement at the front of the chassis. The exhaust is on the correct side for a Delage engine (left)(the incorrect side for a Duesenberg). A further photo shows that the car has been painted white.

 

NM



#33 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 08:34

New & unpainted body? Presumably the Toft car, repaired!?

#34 robert dick

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 16:22

... What is a bit difficult is to know which car turned up at Beverly Hill in March 1922 with Ralph Snoddy, apparently with a Delage engine? Was this the White Special re-fitted with a spare Delage engine? The Toft car salvaged and repaired? The other car?

 

The 250-miler run on 5 March 1922 on the Beverly Hills speedway was open for/limited to 183-inch/3-litre cars, so that Ralph Snoddy's Delage Special was not allowed to start with the original 4.5-litre Delage engine.

= = = =

 

Was the Miller engine (300-inch, 4-cylinder), which replaced the original 4.5-litre in Oldfield's Delage chassis, used in the Elliott Special driven by Frank Elliott in 1919 and 1920?
 


Edited by robert dick, 08 March 2016 - 16:23.


#35 Michael Ferner

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 16:37

The 250-miler run on 5 March 1922 on the Beverly Hills speedway was open for/limited to 183-inch/3-litre cars, so that Ralph Snoddy's Delage Special was not allowed to start with the original 4.5-litre Delage engine.
 

 

 

Good point!

 

 

 

 

Was the Miller engine (300-inch, 4-cylinder), which replaced the original 4.5-litre in Oldfield's Delage chassis, used in the Elliott Special driven by Frank Elliott in 1919 and 1920?
 

 

I would have to believe so.



#36 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:45

And yet the photo in AQ taken of Snoddy in the Delage actually on the boards at Beverly Hills (bearing his race number (#15) for the race on 5 March 1922) shows the exhaust on the car's left. Correct for Delage and incorrect for Duesenberg 183cid. The Miller 4 was presumably long gone by that time (assuming the Snoddy car was the Oldfield car) and was too big for the formula in any event. So could Snoddy have got a dispensation to run the Delage engine or must it be something else?

Neill



#37 robert dick

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 12:26

A "Snoddy Special Racer, will do 100 miles per hour" was offered for $700 in the Los Angeles Herald, 22 March 1921:
snoddy1.jpg
On 16 August 1921, the car was offered as "Special registered racer, name Snoddy" for $500:
snoddy2.jpg
Was the Snoddy Special identical with the Delage Special?

Snoddy and his Delage Special, were also entered in the 24 November 1921/Beverly Hills and 11 December 1921/San Carlos races, in both cases with race No. 15, and did not appear.
 



#38 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 07:25

Going back in time a little we have here Oldfield in the Delage, truncated.

 

https://revslib.stan...log/mx402qs0334

 

It seems unlikely that this was a major meeting - the car is looking down at heel, especially compared to its appearance at Sheepshead Bay in October 1915, when it was quite smart, and later at Corona in March 1916. By the time it got to Indianapolis at the end of May 1916 it was a little scruffy and I suspect that this photo was taken after Indianapolis 1916 and before the car was fitted with the Miller motor in the early months of 1917. Oscar Parlier and Co, sponsoring Oldfield on this occasion, was I think in Los Angeles. The spelling on their banner is not too good. 

 

Visible on the side of the car just in front of the handbrake lever is a diamond shaped discoloration - at Indy a plaque had been riveted on in this position and was obviously later removed. I wonder what it said.



#39 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 07:37

Definitely after Indianapolis - the car has grown a little aero screen in the intervening period. 



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#40 robert dick

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:42

I think the photo showing Oldfield in the stripped Delage was taken at Fresno, 28 November 1915, 100-mile match race against Cooper/Stutz.
"Oscar  Parlier Co. Agts." in the background of the photo = most probably for "Oscar, Parlier County Agents", Parlier being a city near Fresno

Fresno match race, Los Angeles Herald, 29 November 1915:
fresnov15.jpg
 



#41 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 01:24

I am sure that you are right about the sign Robert, but I do think that the photo was taken well after Indianapolis in 1916.

 

I am wrong about the aero screen - it was fitted by the time of the race at Indianapolis in 1916 (it may have been fitted in qualifying as I have a photo which was published in Antique Automobile Vol 46 No. 6 (Nov-Dec 1982) apparently taken at Indianapolis 1916 in which the car does not have the screen). However, in the Parlier Co photo  the bonnet (hood) has two holes on the driver's side and is therefore different to the bonnets fitted in Lyon 1914 and, more relevantly, to the Oldfield car at Corona in March 1916 (see Nolan on Oldfield 2nd ed. page 169). The "new" bonnet with two holes was fitted for Indianapolis 1916, maybe to improve access to the carburettor(s).

 

Also the Oldfield car threw a connecting rod at Sheepshead Bay on 9 October 1915: it would have been difficult to get the car back onto a track for a minor event in less than two months looking as scruffy as this. It is more likely that Miller spent the winter getting the car ready for the 1916 season.

 

The article does not specify which car Oldfield ran at Fresno in 1915 - perhaps, if it was not the Delage, it was the Christie?



#42 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 02:36

And then there is this distraction, again from the Revs Institute archive:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/gj748dr0693

 

https://revslib.stan...log/ft383vg1850

 

The image at bottom right of the montage, copied in the second link, is surely not of a Delage (more likely Peugeot EX45) but it does look like Oldfield at the wheel. Which is a strange thing in itself, as I am not aware of any other record that he drove one.

 

And the venue?



#43 robert dick

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 12:07

I agree that the bonnet/hood is a problem. Maybe the two-hole bonnet was part of the inital package, meaning that different bonnets/air intakes were used according to the carburetor equipment - two Claudels, two double-Claudels, later four Millers...

Oldfield drove his Delage on 25 November 1915 at San Francisco, three days before the Fresno match race (Los Angeles Herald, 26 November 1915):
sfnov15.jpg

= = = = =
Distraction photo:
Could be Resta or Rickenbacher in a 4.5-litre Peugeot, Chicago 300-miler, June 1916.

Oldfield drove a Peugeot at Tacoma in July 1915, the 5.6-litre in which Resta won the Grand Prize/Vanderbilt/February/March 1915 at San Francisco.
 



#44 robert dick

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 09:59

Possible solution for Oldfield in the stripped Delage:
First Pikes Peak hillclimb, 11 and 12 August 1916.
Oldfield drove the Delage a week before at Tacoma with race no. 14, still apparent under no. 2.
 



#45 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 18:00

Does not look like Pikes Peak to me, and I have him running #16 there. However, that's good sleuthing, and I find him running #14 also at Twin City Motor Speedway on Sep 4, 1915, and then a week later running exhibition races at Lincoln/NE. Not sure whether he needed to have a new number there, though. Hmm. :well:

#46 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 18:08

Hang on, I have another possibility: Oldfield also competed at Fresno on October 1, 1916, a few weeks after Pikes Peak, and there he ran #2 according to info I have (which may not be 100 % kosher, though). The event was originally scheduled to run on Sep 30, and time trials were held on the 28th. On the rain date, Oldfield dropped out after only a few laps in the first of six heats with valve trouble.

#47 robert dick

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 15:45

I agree - most probably (I cannot find any detailed report or photo of the event), Fresno District Fair races, 1 October 1916, is correct - it gives solutions for the bonnet, the race numbers and the Parlier Co. mystery in the background.
 



#48 robert dick

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 16:57

First row of the 150-mile Metropolitan Trophy, Sheepshead Bay Speedway, New York, 13 May 1916 - 2 x Delage of the Harkness team, No. 6 = Limberg, No. 7 = Devigne (from ACA Club Journal, 1916/17):
devigne1.jpg
(No. 4 = Watson's J.J.R., No. 9 = Mulford's Peugeot, No. 11 = Rickenbacher's Maxwell)

Devigne's Delage at the pits:
devigne2.jpg
 



#49 Steve L

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 17:47

Some lovely photos for sale on eBay at the moment that seem to show these beautiful Delage:

http://m.ebay.com/it...6e155%7Ciid%3A4

#50 NeillMurdoch

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:37

They are lovely photos and I am sorry that I did not manage to buy them. Hopefully they have not disappeared forever.

 

They show the Harkness Delage entry for the 1916 Metropolitan Trophy at Sheepshead Bay. The race was run on 13 May 1916 and this photo was taken before that event - the cars are at the racetrack, looking prepared but are not wearing their race numbers. As has been previously noted, the race ended in tragedy for Limberg and his mechanic Palotti while Devigne finished well after an under bonnet fire.

 

Interesting to note that the cars both still have front brakes present and (I think) connected. These brakes were disconnected for later races and then removed altogether.

 

Also, the large square bolster tanks were apparently present under the pointed tails of the new body work but I think that these too were later altered. Certainly Harry Harkness attributed to the original fuel tanks some blame for unstable handling which contributed to the crashes of May 1916.