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Dear F1, get your ducks in a row


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#1 LeClerc

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 21:56

Dear F1,

 

If I wanted to see an IT competition, I would go to my workplace.

 

If I wanted to see an eco-engine, I would go to my neighbor (the fool) and watch his Prius.

 

If I wanted to see a remote controlled car (driver), I would to to the local RC track.

 

Please, for the love of DFV, let the drivers control the car. Kill telemetry! Give the driver more HP and torque than he can handle and let us see who is the better driver.

 

I'm an engineer by profession and I don't want to watch engineers in my free time. Please F1, fix it!!!



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#2 Seanspeed

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 21:58

They got rid of traction control and the cars have more power and especially torque than they have in quite a while.

#3 LeClerc

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:01

They got rid of traction control and the cars have more power and especially torque than they have in quite a while.

 

I did not explain it in a coherent way, sorry. I want the driver to control the torque, not some setting on his steering wheel.



#4 Wuzak

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:09

They also have banned 4WS, ABS, electric power steering, telemtry is only car to pit, not pit to car and they are about to cut pit to driver communications substantially, such that they will know where a driver is going wrong in the pits but cannot tell him while he is on track.

 

These "eco" engines have no much in common with the Prius. 

 

In the Prius the electric motor is for improving fuel economy by turning the engine off in certain situations. 

In F1 the electric motors are about extra performance.

 

The V6Ts quite possibly have as much as 100hp more than the V8s for most of the lap, and probably 50hp more when the V8s had KERS available.

 

If you want to see a series where the driver makes all the difference, you will need to go to a single make series, where they all have the same chassis and engine. And even then, a good race engineer will help the driver set up the car better than an average race engineer and get better results. You could see it in the old CART days - when Penske ran their own chassis they struggled for a while, when they switched to the dominant chassis they dominated.



#5 Risil

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:10

Penske won a full quarter of CART races in 2000 and 2001. I would like to see Mercedes dominate like that.


Edited by Risil, 31 October 2015 - 22:11.


#6 Wuzak

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:11

I did not explain it in a coherent way, sorry. I want the driver to control the torque, not some setting on his steering wheel.

 

The only control of torque is the foot pedal.

 

Thw switches on the steering wheel merely change the operating mode - how the ERS works with the ICE, whether it is for a qualifying type lap, or a normal race running lap, or attack/overtake mode. In each case the torque is controlled by teh driver's right foot.



#7 Wuzak

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:14

Penske won a full quarter of CART races in 2000 and 2001. I would like to see Mercedes dominate like that.

 

OK, maybe a bad example.

 

But they did this with a chassis used by a large proportion of the field, and an engine used by several other teams.

 

And quite a turnaround from when running their own chassis.



#8 LORDBYRON

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:53

Dear ,LeClerc

 

Its a pointless thread and i am just getting my reply in as its odds on fav to get the locking key



#9 Risil

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 22:54

Be that as it may... keep up the righteous ranting, LeC :up:



#10 scheivlak

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 23:01

Don't follow motorsports then. 

 

Hurray for bicycle racing!



#11 LeClerc

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 23:20

Dear ,LeClerc

 

Its a pointless thread and i am just getting my reply in as its odds on fav to get the locking key

My age might be shoving  :rotfl:



#12 Ali_G

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 23:51

My age might be shoving  :rotfl:


Its your wisdom that's showing.

I'll add one more thing. F1 needs to revert to fully manual gearboxes with a manual clutch. Semi auto box is a huge driver aid.

#13 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 00:01

Its your wisdom that's showing.

I'll add one more thing. F1 needs to revert to fully manual gearboxes with a manual clutch. Semi auto box is a huge driver aid.

That is only for us that have an understanding of motor racing. F1 has not been for a long time. It is Bernies entertainment on wheels!

As for all the buttons on the steering wheel they do provide different 'modes'  for economy, power, etc. Not needed, lets the driver control the car, not the computers yet alone the telemetry.

Fuel injection and an ECU in this age is a given, the rest should not be. 

In reality like  many categories a control ECU should be part of the deal.



#14 Imateria

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 00:17

That is only for us that have an understanding of motor racing. F1 has not been for a long time. It is Bernies entertainment on wheels!

As for all the buttons on the steering wheel they do provide different 'modes'  for economy, power, etc. Not needed, lets the driver control the car, not the computers yet alone the telemetry.

Fuel injection and an ECU in this age is a given, the rest should not be. 

In reality like  many categories a control ECU should be part of the deal.

They have a control ECU, supplied by McLaren to everyone, and have done since 2008.



#15 Wuzak

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 04:09

I'll add one more thing. F1 needs to revert to fully manual gearboxes with a manual clutch. Semi auto box is a huge driver aid.

 

 

That is only for us that have an understanding of motor racing. F1 has not been for a long time. It is Bernies entertainment on wheels!

As for all the buttons on the steering wheel they do provide different 'modes'  for economy, power, etc. Not needed, lets the driver control the car, not the computers yet alone the telemetry.

Fuel injection and an ECU in this age is a given, the rest should not be. 

In reality like  many categories a control ECU should be part of the deal.

 

You don't actually understand motorsport at all. 

 

The origin of motorsports, particularly Grand Prix racing, is to see which car is fastest/best. 

 

If it was to test driver skill it would have been contested between entrants with teh same car. Instead, there were 11 different makes in the first ever motor race, from 21 entrants. There were over 100 applicants from even more makes. It was to be a test of machine.

 

Therefore if anything makes the car go faster then it is good and absolutely in the original spirit of motor racing. As are semi-auto gearboxes.

 

Also, the computers do not steer the car, nor do they decide how much power to apply - that is all down to the driver. The computer, or ECU, decides how that demand is going to be met, and is just the same as previous engine formulae with ECUs - so basically from the mid to late 1980s onward.

 

The gears are not allowed to change automatically, up or down. They have to shift within a defined time after the driver has requested that change. It is fractions of a second. The computer can reject a shift, if it would lead to the engine being outside normal operating regions (ie it would blow up).

 

The brake by wire only applies to the rear brakes, and is essentially maintaining the set brake bias under braking when the MGUK is harvesting. Braking in these cars would be rather difficult for a human without that system. The front brakes remain totally hydraulic without electronic control.

 

Telemetry, as I said earlier, is only one way, and has been for many years. There is no scope for the pits to control any settings on the car. They can only advise the driver what needs doing. Next year they will only be allowed to advise them of reliability or safety issues. They cannot coach the driver to change settings for improved performance, or adjust his lines. They will, of course, be allowed to apprise the driver of the race situation.



#16 Ali_G

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 04:38

You don't actually understand motorsport at all.

The origin of motorsports, particularly Grand Prix racing, is to see which car is fastest/best.

If it was to test driver skill it would have been contested between entrants with teh same car. Instead, there were 11 different makes in the first ever motor race, from 21 entrants. There were over 100 applicants from even more makes. It was to be a test of machine.

Therefore if anything makes the car go faster then it is good and absolutely in the original spirit of motor racing. As are semi-auto gearboxes.

Also, the computers do not steer the car, nor do they decide how much power to apply - that is all down to the driver. The computer, or ECU, decides how that demand is going to be met, and is just the same as previous engine formulae with ECUs - so basically from the mid to late 1980s onward.

The gears are not allowed to change automatically, up or down. They have to shift within a defined time after the driver has requested that change. It is fractions of a second. The computer can reject a shift, if it would lead to the engine being outside normal operating regions (ie it would blow up).

The brake by wire only applies to the rear brakes, and is essentially maintaining the set brake bias under braking when the MGUK is harvesting. Braking in these cars would be rather difficult for a human without that system. The front brakes remain totally hydraulic without electronic control.

Telemetry, as I said earlier, is only one way, and has been for many years. There is no scope for the pits to control any settings on the car. They can only advise the driver what needs doing. Next year they will only be allowed to advise them of reliability or safety issues. They cannot coach the driver to change settings for improved performance, or adjust his lines. They will, of course, be allowed to apprise the driver of the race situation.

What an utterly bizarre post.

So automated steering should be allowable if it makes the cars faster. Traction control, yaw control, cvt gearboxes, anti lock brakes ditto.

I also find your first line highly insulting and infantile. Your version of F1 sounds like something unwatchable.

Edited by Ali_G, 01 November 2015 - 04:42.


#17 BJHF1

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 04:50

More sliding around like we're seeing this weekend (in Mexico) would be more than welcome imo. When the drivers got the rear end sliding around Ike they are this weekend, this alone raises the excitement and interest level drastically I feel. Now if we had some epic sounds, or at least a much higher level of diversity on top of that...woo-wee! :)

How the the regs have gotten to where they are is beyond me though...quite sad really. I think they've absolutely missed the point in all of it. Not only are they bringing a formula to the table that is of little entertaining, but also a bit irrelevant (the current engine/motor technology being used is ultimately a bit beyond the 8 ball and stuck in a box, while the current aerodynamic formula is completely pointless in road car application).

Edited by BJHF1, 01 November 2015 - 05:00.


#18 Lemans

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 05:09

This thread will just end in videos and pics of V10 and V12 F1 cars.



#19 Wuzak

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 05:34

What an utterly bizarre post.

So automated steering should be allowable if it makes the cars faster. Traction control, yaw control, cvt gearboxes, anti lock brakes ditto.

I also find your first line highly insulting and infantile. Your version of F1 sounds like something unwatchable.

 

Some of those things were being put on the cars before they were banned. Some on the grounds of cost, some on the grounds of allowing the cars to go too fast, and some to put the driver back in control.

 

A lot of those things were on the 1993 winning Williams, and plenty of people watched then. And the car is considered one of the best ever. Certainly the most advanced technically.

 

I apologise if I insulted you. The point of my post is that motor racing has been, from day one, about the car. To make a better and faster car. 



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#20 TheManAlive

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 09:44

Do forums for other sports have the same endless complaints about the sport they are dedicated to? Do football forums have people moaning that the goal is too small, or the ball is too round? Do golf forums moan that the clubs are too long and woods aren't wood anymore? Do snooker fans bemoan the advent of colour TV that robbed them of the fun of guessing what colour ball the player was going for next?

 

By nature I am a pretty negative guy (ask my wife, I am a miserable bugger apparently) but I honestly feel like the ridiculously upbeat and happy person pointing out the positives of our sport all the time. I wish there was a negativity filter on the forums, I reckon it would make reading these pages far more enjoyable.

 

F1 is a tech sport, a combination of driver and car. Technology is part of the game and the teams will always push the envelope and the FIA will regulate it back. Compared to the drivers aids of yesteryear these cars put much more control back in the drivers hands. People who say that they are still too easy just need to listen to the likes of Brundle after his drives in modern era cars - the power they deliver is phenomenal and hard to control. Returning to the V8s would mean losing power and increasing weight - why would you want that? (yeah yeah yeah, they sound great...to be honest that has never bothered me one bit).



#21 pdac

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:08

I think threads like this one simply reflect the feelings of those who have followed the sport for a while that it's in decline and those who are not fans do not seem to be interested because they think it's a done deal that whoever comes up with the best car is going to win every race, regardless.

 

F1 is and has always been about innovation and technology. But most potential fans expect it to be like other sports - about the people. And for them the 'people' are the drivers. You'll find a lot of non-followers of F1 who have heard of Lewis Hamilton or Michael Schumacher, but I doubt very many would regognise the name Adrian Newey.

 

If it is to be solely about who can built the best car then why not remove the drivers completely and expose the the real people who are winning - the designers and engineers. That seems more logical to me. But then again, would many people want to follow it?


Edited by pdac, 01 November 2015 - 10:08.


#22 Mikkels3000

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:17

Dear forum, get your ducks in a row. :stoned:



#23 Skaffen

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:22

I think threads like this one simply reflect the feelings of those who have followed the sport for a while that it's in decline and those who are not fans do not seem to be interested because they think it's a done deal that whoever comes up with the best car is going to win every race, regardless.

F1 is and has always been about innovation and technology. But most potential fans expect it to be like other sports - about the people. And for them the 'people' are the drivers. You'll find a lot of non-followers of F1 who have heard of Lewis Hamilton or Michael Schumacher, but I doubt very many would regognise the name Adrian Newey.

If it is to be solely about who can built the best car then why not remove the drivers completely and expose the the real people who are winning - the designers and engineers. That seems more logical to me. But then again, would many people want to follow it?


Because it's not solely about who can build the best car, it's about the best cars with the best drivers. I watched Mansell's winning season in the Williams and that car was hardly a straight engine with wheels on - it was pretty advanced (in suspension terms moreso than the current cars). F1 has always been about that and if anything the innovations have been more outlandish in the past (fans and 6 wheels and all). I think currently F1 could not be the most technically advanced they could make it as the cars would simply get too fast - but it's certainly reflecting current trends in high end sports cars. Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren aren't using hybrid tech to get the highest MPG but because it's actually a pretty effective mix of technology.

I actually think the balance isn't too bad at the moment - the ban on radio coaching removed one of the most annoying aspects recently. A bit more power and more mechanical grip will give the drivers more to think about and that's coming in 2017.

#24 wj_gibson

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:26

You're asking F1 to make its ducks argue?

#25 Kucki

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:28

Formula 1 has such a rich history and experience. It is amazing how the brightest people cannot find a great formula for "Formula 1". A formula that should consist of great sounding, looking, and impressive cars, fighting against each other on exciting and versatile tracks.

If a V12 is the coolest engine an F1 car could have according to most fans of the sport, if the ground effect helps cars follow each other more closely, if the history of Formula 1 teaches us alot of things, why cant it be applied, to make the best formula possible.

#26 Okyo

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:31

Agree that the cars should be more 'driven' by the drivers, with less help from telemetry, but the whole hate towards green technology has to go. In this day and age, the sport has to keep up with the times and even lead it as the pinnacle of autosport. Lots of F1 fans are still stubborn towards it, especially the older generation fans, but i'm personally happy that there's a big part of the fans that welcome it. The sport moves forward and shows the world that there are things that have to be done, even if it costs a lot.



#27 pdac

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:34

Because it's not solely about who can build the best car, it's about the best cars with the best drivers. I watched Mansell's winning season in the Williams and that car was hardly a straight engine with wheels on - it was pretty advanced (in suspension terms moreso than the current cars). F1 has always been about that and if anything the innovations have been more outlandish in the past (fans and 6 wheels and all). I think currently F1 could not be the most technically advanced they could make it as the cars would simply get too fast - but it's certainly reflecting current trends in high end sports cars. Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren aren't using hybrid tech to get the highest MPG but because it's actually a pretty effective mix of technology.

I actually think the balance isn't too bad at the moment - the ban on radio coaching removed one of the most annoying aspects recently. A bit more power and more mechanical grip will give the drivers more to think about and that's coming in 2017.

 

Exactly. It's not about one or the other. It's about both.

 

Personally, I think the balance is slightly skewed away from the drivers at the moment. I prefer to see the technology going into creating a great car but then to see that car being handed over to a great driver for the race. I don't like the continuous monitoring of the telemetry throughout the race. I don't like the race being monitored to fractions of a second so that someone can work out to the minutest instant when it's time to make a pit stop. But that's just me wanting to see the drivers judgement ('feel for the car' and 'feel for the race') being challenged a bit more.



#28 pdac

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:35

Formula 1 has such a rich history and experience. It is amazing how the brightest people cannot find a great formula for "Formula 1". A formula that should consist of great sounding, looking, and impressive cars, fighting against each other on exciting and versatile tracks.

If a V12 is the coolest engine an F1 car could have according to most fans of the sport, if the ground effect helps cars follow each other more closely, if the history of Formula 1 teaches us alot of things, why cant it be applied, to make the best formula possible.

 

Formula 1 contains a lot of very selfish people with a lot of self-interest at stake.



#29 Roscoe

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:44

No tech at all!  The drivers should have to Fred Flintstone them round the track.  That'll sort the men from the boys.



#30 Retrofly

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:46

LeClerc?

 

More like "Good Moaning"



#31 TheRacingElf

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:48

Agree that the cars should be more 'driven' by the drivers, with less help from telemetry, but the whole hate towards green technology has to go. In this day and age, the sport has to keep up with the times and even lead it as the pinnacle of autosport. Lots of F1 fans are still stubborn towards it, especially the older generation fans, but i'm personally happy that there's a big part of the fans that welcome it. The sport moves forward and shows the world that there are things that have to be done, even if it costs a lot.

Because? I hate it and I'm completely entitled to do so, you can't force things onto people.



#32 Mat13

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:52

Oh good, another "I hate F1 but inexplicably watch it every weekend" thread.

#33 Okyo

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:54

Because? I hate it and I'm completely entitled to do so, you can't force things onto people.

Yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. Think this is rather obvious, and my whole comment is, again, my opinion. 

 



#34 Retrofly

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:56

Oh good, another "I hate F1 but inexplicably watch it every weekend" thread.

 

I'm going to watch Dresarge then go on all the forums and write how its all crap and needs chainging.

 

"Riders shouldnt be allowed bridles and saddles, they should go back to their roots instead of using this new technology nonesence"



#35 Risil

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 10:59

Tbf equestrianism took its stand against technological progress on the day it didn't become motor sport.


Edited by Risil, 01 November 2015 - 10:59.


#36 Mat13

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 11:19

I'm going to watch Dresarge then go on all the forums and write how its all crap and needs chainging.

"Riders shouldnt be allowed bridles and saddles, they should go back to their roots instead of using this new technology nonesence"

I can beat that. I'm going to watch Chess, join a forum and moan about how the pieces are plastic instead of Ivory. Then join an elephant hunting forum and whine about how telescopic sights and rifles are rubbish and demand that they all use spears. Then join a spear making forum....

Edited by Mat13, 01 November 2015 - 11:21.


#37 Wuzak

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 11:36

Personally, I think the balance is slightly skewed away from the drivers at the moment. I prefer to see the technology going into creating a great car but then to see that car being handed over to a great driver for the race. I don't like the continuous monitoring of the telemetry throughout the race. I don't like the race being monitored to fractions of a second so that someone can work out to the minutest instant when it's time to make a pit stop. But that's just me wanting to see the drivers judgement ('feel for the car' and 'feel for the race') being challenged a bit more.

 

Hopefully the changes to the rules for 2016 will put the ball more into the driver's court.



#38 uffen

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 13:17

What I liked about F1 cars, when I came to the sport, was the fact that they were bare-knuckle cars - stripped of everything unnecessary. They were tubs with a steering wheel, a gear lever attached to a rod, some brakes and an engine. The engines were racing engines but they were not anything truly "advanced" they were just raw. There was no b.s. about "road relevancy" because it was the lack of "road relevancy" that attracted me and most others. The drivers had to manhandle the cars. I was impressed by the skills required to get the best out of them - lap after lap. The only thing they were the "pinnacle" of was the formula series F3, F2, F1, etc.

 

Now the idea that "F1 is all about technology" and must be "road relevant" and "green." Yes, the technology advanced - aluminum became carbon fibre, mechanical injection became electronic injection, bias ply became radial, and on and on. Nothing wrong with that, but it was never portrayed as part of a "we must have the pinnacle of technology" scheme. Then came the driver aids and this is where many people got off the bus and started to be more remote fans. Now the technology and approach is absurd in many cases. It is just car racing for God's sake. Telemetry beamed via satellite? Engine modes? Torque procedure settings for better starts? Tires that degrade to add spice? Creating sparks purely for "the show"? Radio messages about saving tires and fuel? Powertrains that are so complex some of the world's largest car makers are still struggling after more than a year? Rules that are so arcane that a driver is assigned a 70 place grid penalty?

 

If road relevant technology is the new be-all and end-all where are the driver-protection air bags, the catalytic converters, the fully automatic gearboxes, the banning of huge front and rear wings, the impact-activated seat belts, the all-weather tires, engines that last 250,000 kms., the use of local pump fuel, the tire fenders, where's the driving in the dark, why no cold weather races, why can't an F1 car idle at rest for long periods, why can't the driver start the engine himself, why can't he do up his seat belts by himself... and on and on.

 

I'll regurgitate the type of advice that many people on this forum dispense: If you want a "road relevant" race series please watch the Nissan Micra series. As you can see I am not in favour of cherry-picking road relevant technology and adopting a phony stance about how green F1 is and how my new car has a flappy paddle so I can pretend to be as skilled as Lewis (well, maybe for the first week I own my new car, then I'll tire of it).

 

Some may say that guys like me cannot deal with change. Well, I've been an F1 fan for over 40 years so look back on all the changes that have occurred and then tell me I can't deal with change. Some change is good, some stinks.



#39 Kucki

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 21:27

Oh good, another "I hate F1 but inexplicably watch it every weekend" thread.


So that you know why F1s interest and viewership is diving.