75 replies to this topic

[Okyo]

Think it's rather self explanatory. With almost two seasons of this new green F1 era in the bag, how do you feel about it overall? Is this a good direction for Formula 1? 



 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

If you mean should we keep the current V6T's Hybrids then it's a big fat YES...

I guess this is another thread to bash the V6T's hybrids?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 November 2015 - 11:01.

[Okyo]

If you mean should we keep the current V6T's Hybrids then it's a big fat YES...

I guess this another thread to bash the V6T's hybrids?

Not really. Had a discusion in the other threat, and noticed some people being for it and some being against it. Just been wondering what part of the population is on each side.

[Seanspeed]

I'm less interested in seeing F1 be green specifically and more concerned with them remaining a high iteration testbed for road relevant technology, especially with drivetrains.

So yea, I'm generally in favor of the current push for hybrid technology and whatnot. It's just very hard to do that, keep development open enough for it *remain* road relevant, be affordable for smaller teams and keep things reasonably competitive throughout the powertrain manufacturers.

What I dont like is F1 putting in hybrid powertrains and then slowly just locking them all down. It just feels like a token gesture at that point. Just something where they can *say* F1 has hybrid power(except they dont even do that, it's terribly marketed) rather than being a leader in the technology, where it could someday drip down to road cars and improve the world.

[johnwilliamdavies]

FFS it's not "green" technology, it's modern technology. Stop whinging and go and watch drag racing instead. 

[Marklar]

Generally my opinion is that motor racing shouldnt be "green" (it isnt by the way). But ignoring this technological trend and staying just to old V8s like some people want will cause in the end that F1 will be irrelevant and I also dont want this.

Edited by Marklar, 01 November 2015 - 11:10.

[TheRacingElf]

No, I want F1 to be something special and something I don't see everyday. I want F1 to be something to get away from the environmentally friendly misery we have to face every other day of the week.

[rhukkas]

Its pretty old technology... not sure what you guys are watching.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

No, I want F1 to be something special and something I don't see everyday. I want F1 to be something to get away from the environmentally friendly misery we have to face every other day of the week.

How can it not be green? They use less fuel during a race and have almost the same amount of power? The new ICE are are approaching 50% efficiency... They use the same PU's for 5 races instead of about 5 a weekend in the old era!

Maybe the whole globetrotting aspect isn't but just go to a airport and see how many planes take and land a day, or count the cars on a motorway... So if so this knowledge gets passed down to your road car you will feel it in your pocket!

And that is why the whole new era of F1 is misadveristed!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 November 2015 - 11:21.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

The problem is not about green hybrid technology in the sport, is is about setting artificial regulations that force the teams to run hybrid technology to be competetive. The rules should allow all kind of engine configurations(turbo, NA, energy recovery) and then the best(fastest during the race) solution will succeed.

 

So sad to see many people fall for the propaganda...

[GrumpyYoungMan]

The problem is not about green hybrid technology in the sport, is is about setting artificial regulations that force the teams to run hybrid technology to be competetive. The rules should allow all kind of engine configurations(turbo, NA, energy recovery) and then the best(fastest during the race) solution will succeed.

So sad to see many people fall for the propaganda...

How much fuel did they used to use in the v8 refuelling era?

[V8 Fireworks]

If F1 wants to be green they should fit catalytic converters to the cars.   

 

So no, the entire idea is preposterous given that one flight of the FOM transport 747 uses more fuel and produces more emissions than the entire season of F1 racing.

[Marklar]

The problem is not about green hybrid technology in the sport, is is about setting artificial regulations that force the teams to run hybrid technology to be competetive. The rules should allow all kind of engine configurations(turbo, NA, energy recovery) and then the best(fastest during the race) solution will succeed.

 

So sad to see many people fall for the propaganda...

Of course they should allow all engine configurations and types (if its possible and not cause in the end that private teams are even less competitive like the WEC proves), but the point is that many people are demanding to scrap the V6T and return to V8 because it is so much better. It wont help.

 

By the way if they allow all configurations than I'm pretty sure that Turbo engines would be the fastest solutions, this was what also happened in the 80s...

[Okyo]

FFS it's not "green" technology, it's modern technology. Stop whinging and go and watch drag racing instead. 

Anything that produces less pollution is considered a greener technology, hence why it's correct to call it 'green' technology. It was the aim of sport and numerious times said by the FIA. 

IF it's the right way to do it, and the most effective way to do it is a totally different topic and anyone who want's to discuss the deffinition of 'green' and the most effective ways to achieve it is welcome to do it on a different threat.


 

Edited by Okyo, 01 November 2015 - 11:32.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

If F1 wants to be green they should fit catalytic converters to the cars.

So no, the entire idea is preposterous given that one flight of the FOM transport 747 uses more fuel and produces more emissions than the entire season of F1 racing.

And watch more people moan about how quite they are?

I think your missing the green part competely!

Yes the way they travel around the world is far from green but the racing is trying to be and the knowledge learnt will be passed down to engine manufactures that are in everyday cars, so we will all benefit by having greener cars and higher MPG...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 November 2015 - 11:31.

[Fatgadget]

Not liking F1 going green is like doing a King Canute against the tide.Its inevitable.Society is going green much the same way smoking and drink driving are now frowned upon.
We all got to deal deal with it...Personaly Im all for it because it opens up other technologies.....I think the idea of harvesting waste exhaust and braking energy is brilliant....Whats there not to like about that concept? Sure the tech involved is a tad expensive right now,but with time and the tech maturing it will be like microprocessors. Onwards and upwards say'!

[V8 Fireworks]

so we will all benefit by having greener cars and higher MPG...

 

 

The cars I like, normally aspirated, high revving, have already gone out of production... so I have no choice but to stick to older cars.

 

No DCT, turbocharged, gasp hybrid!?, nonsense for me.  Absolutely not.    Manual & normal aspiration, that's the way.   

 

 

One day one of these. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 01 November 2015 - 11:34.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

The cars I like, normally aspirated, high revving, have already gone out of production... so I have no choice but to stick to older cars.

No DCT, turbocharged, gasp hybrid!?, nonsense for me. Absolutely not. Manual & normal aspiration, that's the way.

I gathered that by your name lol!

But seriously you have to move with the times, embrace the technology! Most of the modern engines produce far more power and torque so they don't need to be high reving or have big displacements...

Just look at how much better a 2015 car is compare to a 1980 car...

[TheRacingElf]

How can it not be green? They use less fuel during a race and have almost the same amount of power? The new ICE are are approaching 50% efficiency... They use the same PU's for 5 races instead of about 5 a weekend in the old era!

Maybe the whole globetrotting aspect isn't but just go to a airport and see how many planes take and land a day, or count the cars on a motorway... So if so this knowledge gets passed down to your road car you will feel it in your pocket!

And that is why the whole new era of F1 is misadveristed!

I understand your arguments and in a way I have to agree with you but personally I just find all this hybrid technology and electric motors quite boring.

I mean there is nothing wrong a hybrid street car to get you to work, it would save me money and would be better for the environment but to me it just isn't exciting.

 

EDIT: Why can't we just have some fun in the weekends?

Edited by TheRacingElf, 01 November 2015 - 11:39.

[V8 Fireworks]

Anything that produces less pollution is considered a greener technology, 

 

 

So why no catalytic converters on F1 cars!?...... if this is so important.....

 

 

Just look at how much more boring a 2015 car is compare to a 1980 car...

 

Fixed that for you.   Modern cars are technically proficient, but incredibly dull with no soul.  Look how bored Farah is driving this BMW M4... it's very competent yet utterly boring.

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 01 November 2015 - 11:41.

[Vargas]

In my view it's not green in any way or form. Not even close. Just because they put two motor generator units into a internal combustion engine, it doesn't make it green. It still uses fossil fuel. Of course you could say it's a massive improvement, but in reality, some time in the future we are not gonna be able to stretch it any further.They use basically the same manufacturing techniques, they ship the cars and equipment the same way they used to. We should look at the whole life cycle of the whole operations. The question they have to answer is this: Do they want to be new, innovative and relevant to the current state of the world, or they want to live in the past. It's all up to them.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I understand your arguments and in a way I have to agree with you but personally I just find all this hybrid technology and electric motors quite boring.
I mean there is nothing wrong a hybrid street car to get you to work, it would save me money and would be better for the environment but to me it just isn't exciting.

But that is all down to the way the media is handling this new era... All we hear is they aren't noisy enough, they are to expensive, etc instead of looking at the positives...

[Okyo]

So why no catalytic converters on F1 cars!?...... if this is so important.....

Read the whole comment. You're absolutely missing the point of this whole threat. 


Yeah there are different ways to do it and the reasons why they didn't do it are probably tons. Maybe they decided it way earlier when some of the current technologies weren't advanced enough. Maybe they drew a "too green, with a chance of loosing too many viewers" line which they didn't want to cross. Who knows. 

Point is, are you happy with green technologies in the sport, or would you rather have a v12, loud, gas guzzler without the introduction of fuel limiters, ERS and other energy recuperation systems.

Edited by Okyo, 01 November 2015 - 11:46.

[Wuzak]

The problem is not about green hybrid technology in the sport, is is about setting artificial regulations that force the teams to run hybrid technology to be competetive. The rules should allow all kind of engine configurations(turbo, NA, energy recovery) and then the best(fastest during the race) solution will succeed.

 

So sad to see many people fall for the propaganda...

 

Hybrids were specifically banned until recently.

 

If rules were open, I'm sure we would have seen hybrids before. And given a fuel flow formula, the only fair way to have multiple engine formats, the turbo with ERS would be far superior.

[V8 Fireworks]

It still uses fossil fuel.

Potentially they could use ethanol instead. 

[jjcale]

Can we have a definition of "Green" please.....

[Wuzak]

But that is all down to the way the media is handling this new era... All we hear is they aren't noisy enough, they are to expensive, etc instead of looking at the positives...

 

Not to mention the promoter of the sport not promoting the sport.

[Okyo]

Can we have a definition of "Green" please.....

Unbelievable that i have to do this. Google:

green tech·nol·o·gy

noun

 

1. technology whose use is intended to mitigate or reverse the effects of human activity on the environment. 
    

[TheRacingElf]

But that is all down to the way the media is handling this new era... All we hear is they aren't noisy enough, they are to expensive, etc instead of looking at the positives...

No, you assume I only started to dislike hybrid technology since it was introduced in F1, I find hybrid road cars very boring as well and that has nothing to do with how F1 is promoting those engines. It's just my personal experience with hybrid engines.

 

If I buy a car to travel to work I would definitely buy a hybrid but if I buy a car for the weekend, just to have fun in for a few days a month I would buy something with a screaming normally aspirated engine because I find them for fun.

Edited by TheRacingElf, 01 November 2015 - 11:52.

[YoungGun]

No, I want F1 to be something special and something I don't see everyday. I want F1 to be something to get away from the environmentally friendly misery we have to face every other day of the week.

 

In the real world green technologies do save consumers money so it's not all misery. F1 could benefit from that too, energy star compliant computers are a start.

[Wuzak]

No, you assume I only started to dislike hybrid technology since it was introduced in F1, I find hybrid road cars very boring as well and that has nothing to do with how F1 is promoting those engines. It's just my personal experience with hybrid engines.

 

If I buy a car to travel to work I would definitely buy a hybrid but if I buy a car for the weekend, just to have fun in for a few days a month I would buy something with a screaming normally aspirated engine because I find them for fun.

 

What if the hybrid system gave you more power and torque rather than improved fuel efficiency. Because that's the way it has been applied in F1.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

No, you assume I only started to dislike hybrid technology since it was introduced in F1, I find hybrid road cars very boring as well and that has nothing to do with how F1 is promoting those engines. It's just my personal experience with hybrid engines.

If I buy a car to travel to work I would definitely buy a hybrid but if I buy a car for the weekend, just to have fun in for a few days a month I would buy something with a screaming normally aspirated engine because I find them for fun.

McLaren P1?

[anneomoly]

Think it's rather self explanatory. With almost two seasons of this new green F1 era in the bag, how do you feel about it overall? Is this a good direction for Formula 1? 

 

 

I think it's a choice between major manufacturers with greener more modern choices (hybrid, designing rules that push for more-power-per-litre rather than getting-more-litres-in-to-increase-power) or no major manufacturers with old style engines and no engine development, because there's no one there to pay for it.

 

I think F1 is better when manufacturers are involved, however charming the independants and the garagistas.

[V8 Fireworks]

What if the hybrid system gave you more power and torque

 

 

For the time being, it also gives you significantly increased weight. 

 

Since performance is a function of power-to-weight not just power, this is bad.

[TheRacingElf]

McLaren P1?

Would rather have a F1 as a drivers car, naturally aspirated V12, manual gearbox and no electronic gizmos. I understand you want to convince me but this is just my personal preference and I don't think you will be able to change that

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Would rather have a F1 as a drivers car, naturally aspirated V12, manual gearbox and no electronic gizmos. I understand you want to convince me but this is just my personal preference and I don't think you will be able to change that

Lol! Thing is I like all the gizmo's so we want opposite things! Lol!

[Counterbalance]

I understand your arguments and in a way I have to agree with you but personally I just find all this hybrid technology and electric motors quite boring.

I mean there is nothing wrong a hybrid street car to get you to work, it would save me money and would be better for the environment but to me it just isn't exciting.

 

EDIT: Why can't we just have some fun in the weekends?

 

There's these amazing things called 'pubs' (or 'bars' depending upon where you live). You can have lots of fun in such establishments at a weekend. As for F1, yup, this season has been pretty dull, but that's more to do with the ineptitude of Renault and Honda. If they got their act together then I'm sure race weekends would be much more enjoyable. It's not Mercedes or Ferrari's fault if they have built better power unit by clever interpretation of the current regulations. And yeah, I kind of like the green environment F1 is trying to promote.The rest of the world are moving in that direction, why should F1 be any different?

[TheRacingElf]

Lol! Thing is I like all the gizmo's so we want opposite things! Lol!

Nothing wrong with different opinions though, is there? No need to "lol" someone

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Nothing wrong with different opinions though, is there? No need to "lol" someone

The "lol" was there so you knew the context of my comment!

I totally agree!

[Fastcake]

The world's moving on and becoming more environmentally friendly. You can choose not to like that, if you really want to, but it's happening anyway. F1 can move with the times, or eventually no one will be left to pay the bills.

[Tourgott]

I am a very very eco-minded guy, seriously.

Whenever it's possible I take the bike instead of the car or I go by foot, even if it's raining or snowing and even for longer distances if I have the time.

I do not use more electricity than necessary (turn off all lights, do not use the dishwasher, ...)

I am recycling my garbage and I don't throw trash on the street not even a small gum paper.

 

But I do not support the 'green Formula 1'. Motorsport is not green fundamentally. It's a waste of energy and fuel, no matter how little they use. It will always be stupid to waste energy for entertainment. The thing is: Sometimes we do stupid things because we need to have fun in our lives. And if I do or watch stupid things to have fun I want them to be as good as possible. The Hybrid Formula is not good anymore and therefore it makes no fun. Most people agree on that and that's dangerous for the sport.

[Seanspeed]

For the time being, it also gives you significantly increased weight. 
 
Since performance is a function of power-to-weight not just power, this is bad.

This is the kind of thing that F1 would be fantastic at improving, but there's not enough scope for development.

F1 having a 'green' powertrain is meaningless on its own. We want green powertrains in cars because there's hundreds of millions of them driving around the planet at any given moment. Saying F1 is just a drop in a bucket would already be a ridiculous understatement. If F1 wants to be green, it needs to *contribute* in a meaningful way.

[Fatgadget]

I am a very very eco-minded guy, seriously.
Whenever it's possible I take the bike instead of the car or I go by foot, even if it's raining or snowing and even for longer distances if I have the time.
I do not use more electricity than necessary (turn off all lights, do not use the dishwasher, ...)
I am recycling my garbage and I don't throw trash on the street not even a small gum paper.

But I do not support the 'green Formula 1'. Motorsport is not green fundamentally. It's a waste of energy and fuel, no matter how little they use. It will always be stupid to waste energy for entertainment. The thing is: Sometimes we do stupid things because we need to have fun in our lives. And if I do or watch stupid things to have fun I want them to be as good as possible. The Hybrid Formula is not good anymore and therefore it makes no fun. Most people agree on that and that's dangerous for the sport.

Nonsense! Why is this hybrid formula any different from say the 2 litre and 1.5 litre or 4.5 litre of yesteryear?. F1 has been chopping and changing engine configurations for donkeys years.And guess what? Its still as enthralling as ever!
As for being dangerous for the sport!...Well, F1 IS a dangetous sport! .Seriously,me thinks you are just being overly dramatic here.

Edited by Fatgadget, 01 November 2015 - 13:08.

[Vargas]

Potentially they could use ethanol instead. 

Yes, I agree there is a possibility, but still needs more research and developement. It's important what the source is of the ethanol is, because I am against the idea of using food to power cars.

[Tourgott]

Its still as enthralling as ever!

 

Yes it is. Everything is fine. 

[Fatgadget]

This is the kind of thing that F1 would be fantastic at improving, but there's not enough scope for development.

F1 having a 'green' powertrain is meaningless on its own. We want green powertrains in cars because there's hundreds of millions of them driving around the planet at any given moment. Saying F1 is just a drop in a bucket would already be a ridiculous understatement. If F1 wants to be green, it needs to *contribute* in a meaningful way.

Im not sure I follow what you mean by meaningful...Are you saying harvesting otherwise lost energy for extra oomph is not meaningful or what?

Edited by Fatgadget, 01 November 2015 - 13:11.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

To me it makes perfect sense to use all the wasted energy used to brake to power generators and use the exhaust gases to generate electricity, also how Red Bull used the exhaust to blow the diffuser, which was all clever use of an ICE!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 01 November 2015 - 13:09.

[Szoelloe]

yes. The problem is not that F1 tries to be "green" as you put it.

[Seanspeed]

Im not sure I follow what you mean by meaningful...Are you saying harvesting otherwise lost energy for extra oomph is not meaningful or what?

I mean that F1 having green powerplants isn't going to have an impact on the world. We want green road cars because there's so gosh darn many of them that if you can make them cleaner and more fuel efficient, it *will* make a difference. If F1 wants to be green in a meaningful way, it needs to contribute by actually using the sport as a testbed for the technology. To develop and improve it, so that the technology can trickle down to road cars, where being green actually matters in the big picture.

But instead, the FIA are slowly closing down development of the powerplants, meaning there is no real way to achieve this progress. It is just being green to say you are, which is really just a token gesture. I get why they do it. They need to control costs and whatnot, but I dont think it's the right approach to the 'green' thing at all.

[Fatgadget]

^^Well,with that attitude white van man next door shouldnt bother replacing his diesel Ford Transit with an electric Nissan varnege or whatever it is or I shouldn't bother with solar panels on my roof because all that will make bugger all difference...Thats essentially what you are saying - right?