208 replies to this topic

[DaddyCool]

Perhaps not surprisingly, but I've yet to see any comment from the F1 world regarding this matter.

 

To me it is absolutely insane that even if you just take the last few races for example, there has been numerous times where collision debris was left on the track, without immediate action from race control (see Austin turn 1, opening laps).

 

What's even more insane to me is that [depending on the situation] race control's solution seems to be sending in marshals without SC or even VSC to the track to quickly pick up the leftover parts. We have seen what happened in Sochi and today at the Mexican GP (also remember the Canadian marshal tripping over back then?). To me this is completely unacceptable, and an unnecessary high risk when it comes to marshal safety, even if I take into consideration that the marshals can always say no to such a request. 

 

But hey, it's not as we have had a serious accident lately due to lax safety regulations, right?

 

What do you guys think? 

[Crossmax]

Yeah, twice in three races that has happened, but Sochi was far worse in my opinion. The drunk guy in Singapore was in way less danger than both of these marshalls. Should be refrained from in the future.

[Ickx]

I usually have thought that some SC have not been needed but if anyone is going to be on track with no safety there should be a SC (no VSC!). I don't like to see this.

[Graveltrappen]

I also did think this... Anybody who thinks its not worth a VSC should google the video of Tom Pryce and see what happened to the marshal in that situation.

Isn't this precisely what the VSC was brought in for?! Nuts that they don't use it.

Also when Vettel crashed, although the safety car had been called, the pack were still plowing round to join up to the back of the snake... But out trundled a tractor onto the run-off area where vettel had slid off the track,.. With enough clearance once again to perfectly lodge an f1 car minus a drivers head beneath it.

Bloody ridiculous.

[SophieB]

If by chance you are not familiar with the incident, then for heaven's sake, don't google the Tom Pryce video unless you are fully prepared to watch horrific fatal accidents.

[Ruusperi]

The marshals never risk their or drivers' safety. The race control has very thorough system where all the marshals have the exact information when the track is free. For example, when there's a 30 sec gap between cars, it's not a risk to pick up debris. Though at Sochi it looked like they either estimated the gap incorrectly or took a gamble. That shouldn't have happened. Yet again it would be nonsense to halt racing every once in a while when there's some piece of cardboard outside the racing line. It's not that there are stalled cars left on the track like it was a customary years ago.

 

Still, just a while ago even this was normal. And If Bianchi hadn't had his crash, I think it would still be a regular way to handle stopped cars.

Edited by Ruusperi, 01 November 2015 - 22:56.

[Tsarwash]

I usually have thought that some SC have not been needed but if anyone is going to be on track with no safety there should be a SC (no VSC!). I don't like to see this.

Safety is important, but without viewers there would be no sport at all. If they called a ten minute safety EVERY time there was debris on the track, viewers would switch over and the sport would die a slow death. Some say this is happening already.

[scheivlak]

Also when Vettel crashed, although the safety car had been called, the pack were still plowing round to join up to the back of the snake... But out trundled a tractor onto the run-off area where vettel had slid off the track,.. With enough clearance once again to perfectly lodge an f1 car minus a drivers head beneath it.

Bloody ridiculous.

Hello, double yellow flags were waved. Any driver should know what that means.

[Jerem]

If the debris is close to the racing line, it's better to pick them.

 

If someone's gonna pick them, you can't let it be done with F1 cars driven at racing speeds nearby.

 

So it's minimum VSC to let marshalls pick the debris.

 

It's incredible to still see marshalls cross the track to pick debris. Even more amazing that it happened twice in 3 races. Someone's gonna get hurt.

[V8 Fireworks]

Safety car should ALWAYS be sent when debris needs to be retrieved.

[Arska]

They'll probably change things after a track worker gets killed. That's the usual modus operandi.

[MarkRaishbrook]

If by chance you are not familiar with the incident, then for heaven's sake, don't google the Tom Pryce video unless you are fully prepared to watch horrific fatal accidents.

 

Second that, SophieB. The footage is sickening, one of the most horrific things I've ever seen.

[coppilcus]

I also did think this... Anybody who thinks its not worth a VSC should google the video of Tom Pryce and see what happened to the marshal in that situation.

Isn't this precisely what the VSC was brought in for?! Nuts that they don't use it.

Also when Vettel crashed, although the safety car had been called, the pack were still plowing round to join up to the back of the snake... But out trundled a tractor onto the run-off area where vettel had slid off the track,.. With enough clearance once again to perfectly lodge an f1 car minus a drivers head beneath it.

Bloody ridiculous.

 

Indeed... At least the VSC should be mandatory in this scenarios.

 

Imagine if the steward trips or the adrenaline causes weard reactions in his legs... the steward in Sochi would be hit for sure by the Ferrari.

 

It's impossible to predict every probability for a gap or failure in security, but once an accident revails that gap and makes it evident, messures have to be taken... As brutal as was the impact of Jules with that crane, if that clearance between ground and fence of the heavy vehicule weren't there, Bianchi would be alive and racing today in Mexico. It would be evident for many that the accident of Villota could be replicated with any of the cranes at any circuit and nothing has happened in that regard, yes, the VSC is a result of the accident in Suzuka, but more could be done.

Edited by coppilcus, 02 November 2015 - 00:56.

[PlatenGlass]

I think the virtual safety car should be enough. Of course, if they do bring out the real safety car, it should be mandatory that they then leave it out for ten more laps than necessary. But I think that's already a rule.

[Kalmake]

Also when Vettel crashed, although the safety car had been called, the pack were still plowing round to join up to the back of the snake... But out trundled a tractor onto the run-off area where vettel had slid off the track,.. With enough clearance once again to perfectly lodge an f1 car minus a drivers head beneath it.

Bloody ridiculous.

They are driving to delta until they catch the SC. I think it's completely fine if the track itself is clear.

 

It does seem odd to not use VSC instead if the recovery is done before SC can bunch up the field anyway.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Hello, double yellow flags were waved. Any driver should know what that means.

 

Memory's hazy....Wasn't there a race in Japan last year where double flags were waved?

 

The resulting inquiry found, as I seem to recall, driver erred by failing to heed them.

Of course I could have this all wrong.....

[Winterapfel]

They are driving to delta until they catch the SC. I think it's completely fine if the track itself is clear.

It does seem odd to not use VSC instead if the recovery is done before SC can bunch up the field anyway.

I still think the (double) waved yellows should be a real "slow zone", back to crawling pace, not always a SC is needed. And with a VSC, pace is not low enough on debris location, while it is unnecessarily slow around the remainder of the track.

[lustigson]

Don't double waved yellow flags mean, 'be prepared to stop'?

[Lee Nicolle]

Hello, double yellow flags were waved. Any driver should know what that means.

You are talking F1 drivers,, double yellow means go faster and catch the pack.

That has already killed one driver recently but they still do it. They probably need a pit lane limiter style device to limit them! Basic safety as known world wide to club racers is foreign to hero class racing!

[lustigson]

The pit lane limiter idea is one that I've had, too. Why not, from race control, slow down all cars at the same time to a maximum of 120, 100, 80 or even 60 km/h? That would save the need for a safety car in many situation, wouldn't it?

[Lee Nicolle]

The pit lane limiter idea is one that I've had, too. Why not, from race control, slow down all cars at the same time to a maximum of 120, 100, 80 or even 60 km/h? That would save the need for a safety car in many situation, wouldn't it?

Problem is that if the car slows by itself it will cause an accident.

It is up to the drivers to slow, to be prepared to stop. Not drive 10/10ths to catch up as they do.

V8 SC commentator Neil Crompton has referred to double yellows as go faster flags.

Any driver hitting crash crews and their equipment under yellows should be disqualified for 10 races, next time do not come back.

[KingTiger]

VSC is completely pointless. Double waved yellow flags should be enough for a few pieces of debris. Problem is that Whiting is spineless and does not punish the drivers that don't slow down for the yellows or cut the track. 

[Lopek]

VSC is completely pointless. Double waved yellow flags should be enough for a few pieces of debris. Problem is that Whiting is spineless and does not punish the drivers that don't slow down for the yellows or cut the track. 

 

This.

 

This issue is the complete incompetence of Charlie Whiting. Track limits and enforcing yellows & blue flags are just two of his many failings. He should have gone after Bianchi's accident but he got off without even a slap on the wrist.

[DaddyCool]

The thing here is that:

 

1. There's absolutely no strict enforcement of the double waved yellow flags.

2. Even if you impose the strictest possible penalty for ignoring yellows, the aim here should be that marshals operating on the track are doing so in absolute safety. If a marshal gets killed, you could ban the driver for a lifetime from auto racing, it will not bring back the marshal to life.

 

Now I'm not asking for the SC to be sent out for every minor thing, but either the VSC needs to be tweaked, or they should impose some very strict slow zone rules with severe penalties in order to ensure that no track marshal gets hurt.

[Nonesuch]

If there is a gap, I don't think a neutralization is needed.

 

However, the incident in Russia seemed far more like a personal initiative, because it was obvious that there was absolutely no gap between the cars in that case.

 

Don't double waved yellow flags mean, 'be prepared to stop'?

 

That is only in the FIA Sporting Code.

 

It has nothing to do with F1.

 

Or so some would have us believe.

 

Hello, double yellow flags were waved. Any driver should know what that means.

 

They do. As Autosport reported last year, the drivers "have been told by F1 race director Charlie Whiting that they must now slow down by 0.2 seconds compared to their best sector time for single yellow flags, and 0.5s for double waved yellows."

 

Five tenths makes all the difference in the world, you know.
 

Still, just a while ago even this was normal.

 

A few months ago I watched the 2003 Monza race, and they were doing that right in the shade of the trees just past the Curva del Serraglio.

 

No points for guessing who was the race director at that time.

Edited by Nonesuch, 02 November 2015 - 08:39.

[muramasa]

　

frankly kind of debris that were picked up by marshalls at Mexico, Sochi etc better be left there than collected by marshalls like that without SC protection (or VSC depending on situation).

 

sure nowadays you can know cars precise positioning by GPS so SC/VSC is not an absolute necessity, but in order for that:

a. better communication method between marshal posts and race control. Maybe distribution of terminal unit like tablet to every marshal post (so that marshalls can judge by themselves on site flexibly rather than top-down) preferable

b. strict and sophisticated command structure in marshalls

c. extensive and systematic training for marshalls. e.g suppose there's 15sec gap between one car and the next, but the marshalls who run to pick up the debris should be physically fit, like semi-athlete level, also have right set of judging ability. Also "chief" marshalls, who are in position to organize and give orders, need to have good experience and expertise

d. sharing expertise across circuits. setting some sort of international standard for marshall would be ideal.

e. of course drivers need to respect yellows a lot more and race control can do better in deploying SCs and enforcing rules as well as coming up with better ideas like slow zones or whatever

all of these are necessary and maybe some more. Some of those are already necessary for cases where marshalls have to travel on off track area to attend a driver who parked or crashed but often not respected at all or not exist yet (some may already exist, I know it's easier said than done). It's doable I believe, but what's for certain is that it costs money, time and all sorts of resources.   Until then, just either send SC or deploy VSC (or far stricter double yellow) before and whenever marshalls need to go out on the racing track, imo.

It's always easier said than done anyway. I remember that at Suzuka marshals came out on track quickly to catch and stop a stray tyre to prevent it from going down the hill on the track on several occasions which was probably the right decision. Every corner, each case is different so there's no one fits all solution, but it should be possible to evolve things and raise standards overall.

 

[ANF]

Am I right in thinking that that piece of debris had been lying there for some 30 laps before Vettel pointed it out to race control on lap 39? I noticed a bright spot in the middle of T10 in the early laps, but I couldn't tell if it was debris or a patch of oil-absorbing material. Surely it must have been the same debris? Anyway, I'm sure Indycar race control would have spotted it within two laps and thrown a full course yellow.

[FredF1]

Am I right in thinking that that piece of debris had been lying there for some 30 laps before Vettel pointed it out to race control on lap 39? I noticed a bright spot in the middle of T10 in the early laps, but I couldn't tell if it was debris or a patch of oil-absorbing material. Surely it must have been the same debris? Anyway, I'm sure Indycar race control would have spotted it within two laps and thrown a full course yellow.

 

It was there for ages. As was pointed out on Sky's commentary. Vettel happened to notice it just when a SC would help him out following his need to pit for new tyres. Pure coincidence I'm sure.

[ANF]

Also when Vettel crashed, although the safety car had been called, the pack were still plowing round to join up to the back of the snake... But out trundled a tractor onto the run-off area where vettel had slid off the track,.. With enough clearance once again to perfectly lodge an f1 car minus a drivers head beneath it.

Speaking of tractors, I wonder how Kimi's car was removed. This was under local yellow.

[DaddyCool]

In Austin it was even worse, the whole first turn was littered with carbon fibre for like 4-5 laps. Apparently the powers that be only care about punctures if it damages the reputation of the tyre supplier.

 

It also makes you wonder what is the point of the snowplow front wings as they have clearly failed their intended purpose (closer following, less dependance of aero), but has greatly increased punctures and collision damage, lest we forget they look like absolute ****. But I'm going off-topic now, so I'll leave that be

Edited by DaddyCool, 02 November 2015 - 12:46.

[paulrobs]

The marshal running onto the track to clear some debris yesterday - seemed to be part of a tyre blanket or heat wrap material - was brave and stupid at the same time

[Tapz63]

It is that none of you have ever ran across a road before? As long as they know how big the gap is I am fine with marshals removing the debris under yellow. It is dangerous but so are the restarts after a safety car.

[Arska]

It is that none of you have ever ran across a road before? As long as they know how big the gap is I am fine with marshals removing the debris under yellow. It is dangerous but so are the restarts after a safety car.

 

The thing is that the crazy marshals at Sochi and now Mexico didn't have anywhere near good enough vision of the approaching cars.

[Prost1997T]

You'd think enforcing yellow flags would be a simple matter...  start handing out drive-through penalties for those who ignore them.

Edited by Prost1997T, 02 November 2015 - 15:38.

[anneomoly]

If the debris is close to the racing line, it's better to pick them.

 

If someone's gonna pick them, you can't let it be done with F1 cars driven at racing speeds nearby.

 

So it's minimum VSC to let marshalls pick the debris.

 

It's incredible to still see marshalls cross the track to pick debris. Even more amazing that it happened twice in 3 races. Someone's gonna get hurt.

 

 

Memory's hazy....Wasn't there a race in Japan last year where double flags were waved?

 

The resulting inquiry found, as I seem to recall, driver erred by failing to heed them.

Of course I could have this all wrong.....

 

The resulting inquiry found that all drivers were at error. I still live in the hope that the other 21 drivers on the track that day might learn from their lucky escape, because it really could have been any of them (barring Sutil, obviously).

 

It seems pointless to neutralise a portion of the track 2 miles away from a single piece of head sized carbon fibre that's going to take 15 seconds to remove. Double yellows ought to be enough to clear the track of minor debris (run out, grab, run back). That it isn't, frankly, is partly race control and partly the drivers' faults. They have the ability to ask for clearer yellow limits that mean they have to slow down. Race control has the ability to say "if you're going too fast, you'll get a race ban, no appeal, no questions." Neither have chosen to do this.

[Ruusperi]

I think those marshals that end up being in TV screens are in minority. Lots of the quick track visits (like picking up beer cans or small debris) may happen outside cameras or director deliberately not showing them. Probably it's done without even local yellows (at least in the past).

With caution and well planned protocol every potential risk can be minimized towards 0 %. I doubt anyone crosses a road without looking, as the risk of being hit is too high. But once you look and see no one is coming right away, the risk disappears. At that point there is no risk whatsoever (unless you stumble or faint while crossing the road, then the risk goes up, but that's way way more improbable).

 

Imo, a bigger problem is the pit road. It's amazing there haven't been collisions between a person and a car given the number of people on the pit road. Close calls don't count.

Edited by Ruusperi, 02 November 2015 - 17:51.

[Nonesuch]

You'd think enforcing yellow flags would be a simple matter...  start handing out drive-through penalties for those who ignore them.

 

The enforcement isn't the problem. These situations are being closely monitored.

 

The problem is that the FIA has allowed its race director to completely reinterpret the FIA-wide Sporting Code.

 

The yellow flag rules in F1 bear almost no resemblance to those used in other FIA series.

 

It is only by dumb luck that no marshals have been killed as a result of this policy.

 

One day that luck will run out, as it did last year in Suzuka - which could have easily been a far greater disaster than it was.

Edited by Nonesuch, 02 November 2015 - 18:06.

[Retrofly]

The problem is the SC is too long and laborious so race control are reluctant to use it.

 

Stop the unlapping BS and halve the SC time.

[Prost1997T]

The enforcement isn't the problem. These situations are being closely monitored.

 

The problem is that the FIA has allowed its race director to completely reinterpret the FIA-wide Sporting Code.

 

The yellow flag rules in F1 bear almost no resemblance to those used in other FIA series.

 

If the rules are at fault they should be changed. The VSC issues at Austin were clearly apparent - gaps were not maintained and I didn't see drivers slow down in a uniform fashion.

[EcurieEcosse69]

An interesting topic....As I am an old fart and miss the racing and characters of yesteryears, but does endorse a lot of the safety regulations, that are now in place. I am not a fan of VSC at all. As, far as for for picking up very minor debris and incidents on the track. I am in favour of old style, strictly enforced, double waved flags and with modern communications, race marshals and drivers are aware of any dangers and therefore should be able to avoid any mishaps.

 

Dougie

[DaddyCool]

Damp track, marshals and a maintenance vehicle outside of a corner, not even a yellow flag.

Good thing that no one in recent or not-so-distant past has overshot that pit entry.

[CoolBreeze]

Ron Dennis requested them to park there and wave off Lewis. 

[KingTiger]

If the rules are at fault they should be changed. The VSC issues at Austin were clearly apparent - gaps were not maintained and I didn't see drivers slow down in a uniform fashion.

I would say its not the rules that are at fault, but the man who is supposed to apply them.

[Disgrace]

There was a bit of a close call at Brands during the BTCC opener.

 

 

[Archer]

IMO this is a real safety issue, and it must have priority over other measures of debatable importance. I don't understand how this huge potential risk it's still happening and also how it's possible that Charlie don't make an extensively use of the virtual safety car. As ussual it will not be done any change until something awful happens, like in cycling with brake discs and TV motorbikes.

[Imperial]

What I'm perplexed about is the Halo (or alt proposal) is being rammed down our throats, many drivers (although not all) want it and governing bodies are insisting it will happen.

Yet in the meantime, I've seen pieces of debris on track the same size or bigger as gave James Hinchcliffe a dizzy spell and that killed Justin Wilson, and there is either no action taken or we'll see a lap or two at full speed go by before the yellows fly.

I cannot reconcile this.

Edited by Imperial, 18 April 2016 - 17:30.

[johnmhinds]

What I'm perplexed about is the Halo (or alt proposal) is being rammed down our throats, many drivers (although not all) want it and governing bodies are insisting it will happen.

Yet in the meantime, I've seen pieces of debris on track the same size or bigger as gave James Hinchcliffe a dizzy spell and that killed Justin Wilson, and there is either no action taken or we'll see a lap or two at full speed go by before the yellows fly.

I cannot reconcile this.

 

And they allow drivers to carry on racing when they have loose pieces of wing and bodywork hanging off.

 

In Bahrain Hamilton was allowed to driver around with a flapping piece of his floor which later flew off. 

[Sheldon835]

And they allow drivers to carry on racing when they have loose pieces of wing and bodywork hanging off.

 

In Bahrain Hamilton was allowed to driver around with a flapping piece of his floor which later flew off. 

Indeed and Vettel's front wing (which eventually dislodged itself over a kerb). Seems like no one considers the consequences of what would happen if a car had been closely following him and that piece hit the following driver.

[Araqiel]

If by chance you are not familiar with the incident, then for heaven's sake, don't google the Tom Pryce video unless you are fully prepared to watch horrific fatal accidents.

TBH if they find the most commonly-shared angle they won't realise what they were supposed to be looking at until they read the comments. There is video from the other direction which clearly shows what happens to the marshal, which definitely should come with some kind of a warning.

[Nonesuch]

I cannot reconcile this.

 

I said this in the Chinese Grand Prix thread, but the 'meatball' flag is severely underused. Cars with broken bits hanging on them can be called in. That'd be perfectly reasonable.  The last time it was used, as far as I can recall, was the 2003 Australian Grand Prix when Michael Schumacher's bargeboard was loose. Yet that same year Williams was allowed to run with bouncing rear-view mirrors in Canada. There was a brief discussion about it after the 2008 French Grand Prix when Räikkönen's exhaust was damaged and dancing in the wind, but perhaps the most ridiculous example was Alonso getting himself stuck on his front-wing in Malaysia back in 2013, when it was obvious to everyone that the thing was going to fall off at some point.

 

But again, we come back to the same old issue: the FIA race director doesn't seem to think it's a problem. So in the world of F1, that means it isn't. Never mind the consequences.

Edited by Nonesuch, 18 April 2016 - 19:07.