208 replies to this topic

[jr80]

P.s. there are different systems in use in hospitals to track patients not using GPS. It might be worth looking at but human factors design of the process is fundemental and need not slow down going back to green in this context.

[yasushi888]

Not a marshal on track, just an official cameraman, at the start of the race, on the outside of a fast kink. Does motorsport ever learn?

If that crash happened a bit further down the track, that cameraman wouldn't have known anything about it let alone try and move out of the way. It actually looks like he has been allowed to position himself there. He was also there at the start of the F4 race which was after the GT4 race. So no lessons learnt from the first near miss then.   Not sure if this meeting comes under FIA rules and regs etc. but what is race control thinking? 

GT4 - https://youtu.be/CHryp7VPQtk?t=6m15s

F4 - https://youtu.be/Z72LM27hR0w?t=3m8s

[pacificquay]

Not a marshal on track, just an official cameraman, at the start of the race, on the outside of a fast kink. Does motorsport ever learn?
If that crash happened a bit further down the track, that cameraman wouldn't have known anything about it let alone try and move out of the way. It actually looks like he has been allowed to position himself there. He was also there at the start of the F4 race which was after the GT4 race. So no lessons learnt from the first near miss then.   Not sure if this meeting comes under FIA rules and regs etc. but what is race control thinking? 
GT4 - https://youtu.be/CHryp7VPQtk?t=6m15s
F4 - https://youtu.be/Z72LM27hR0w?t=3m8s

I have watched both those videos and nowhere can I see any evidence of a cameraman on the track

[ANF]

I watched both races and I didn't notice him, but here he is:

From the GT4 start crash replay. Well spotted, yasushi.

[johnmhinds]

I have watched both those videos and nowhere can I see any evidence of a cameraman on the track

 

He is kneeling out in this spot in both vids, and runs away in the first vid as the cars crashes near him.

 

Edited by johnmhinds, 10 June 2017 - 21:11.

[ANF]

Here he is again, one hour after the GT4 crash, now with 31 Formula 4 cars coming towards him:


And here are some of the Formula 4 cars 30 seconds later:

[redreni]

How long do you think it would take to do that radio check round the 40+ marshals posts round such a track?

'Base to 1 - Conform clear, over'
'1 to base - Clear, over'
.
.
.
.
.

 

Surely what's needed is a system like what the teams use to determine if a car can be released after the stops? Each of the four wheel guns plus the car controller's override switch (used when there's reason to believe the car isn't ready to leave or shouldn't be released yet because of traffic) all feed into the traffic light system. Until all five are saying "done/all clear", the light stays red.

 

On the same principle, couldn't each observer/post chief have a handheld device which tells race control whether their sector is clear or not? If there are 40 posts, that's 40 handheld devices, and all 40 must be sending a "clear" signal to race control before the SC can be brought in. That way you don't have to have a radio conversation with each individual observer before you can tell that the whole track is clear.

 

It is tricky, of course, because if the accident happens near the end of the lap, if the field passes and the track is almost clear and there is reason to believe it will be clear within another 30s, you want to bring the SC in rather than wait another lap, particularly when you know it will take the cars another minute from the time of the restart to reach the relevant sector. But you don't want really want to encourage observers to tell race control that their sector is clear if they actually mean that they reckon it will be clear by the time the cars arrive.

 

Again, there are ways around this. In civil aviation, if a plane is on final approach and the runway is occupied, they can tell the plane to go around (i.e. execute a missed approach, delay all the passengers, waste a load of fuel and compromise the efficient use of the runway). If the runway is clear, they can say "cleared to land". If the runway is occupied but there is reason to believe it will be clear before the plane arrives (with a safe margin), the controller can say "continue approach" and then issue the actual clearance later.

 

It's tricky, particularly when you're working with volunteer marshals who may speak a variety of different languages, but I'd have thought F1 needs a quick and efficient way for observers to tell race control if their sector is (1) not clear, (2) imminently will be clear or (3) clear, all without the need for radio conversations. That way once all sectors are reporting (2) or (3), race control can concentrate on its own situational awareness of any sectors in category (2) before deciding to bring the SC in.

 

One advantage of observers pressing buttons to send and receive signals to the race control system is that they could be trained on what the buttons mean, and how race control will understand and react to the signals, in their own language. Because, frankly, the more I learn about the way F1 weekends run, with different and possibly incompatible processes overlayed, the more I worry about the effectiveness of the comms between race control and the actual track workers.

[redreni]

I watched both races and I didn't notice him, but here he is:

From the GT4 start crash replay. Well spotted, yasushi.

 

Yeah, I think photographers tend take the view that they've signed the appropriate waivers and can take whatever risks they're comfortable with. They can also lose their sense of perspective, so to speak, when trying to get a spectacular shot. The track marshals should not have allowed him to do this.

 

Ultimately if he were struck by a car it would be his own silly fault, but it's not fair on those who would have to deal with such an incident, to allow this guy to take such risks.

[ANF]

Yeah, I think photographers tend take the view that they've signed the appropriate waivers and can take whatever risks they're comfortable with. They can also lose their sense of perspective, so to speak, when trying to get a spectacular shot. The track marshals should not have allowed him to do this.
 
Ultimately if he were struck by a car it would be his own silly fault, but it's not fair on those who would have to deal with such an incident, to allow this guy to take such risks.

The astonishing thing is that he's not just any accredited photographer – he's holding a camera that's part of the TV production!

And by standing there he/they are putting the drivers at risk too, especially those in open cockpit cars.