29 replies to this topic

[Paul Taylor]

Lotus 20s at Silverstone - could it be Peter Ashdown after his collision with John Hine in 1962? Apparently 12 photos of this were posted in the Sunday Express, 13th May 1962, but I'm unable to find these online to confirm.

 

[raceannouncer2003]

From this article on Peter Ashdown:

 

http://www.motorspor...k-peter-ashdown

 

..."At the International Trophy Meeting in May I had the offer of a SuperSpeed Lotus 20 After trying it and the Lola in practice. I told Eric that I'd be driving the Lotus. John Hine, my team-mate therefore moved up into my place for that race and Eric fitted, for the first time, an 1.100 cc Ford engine in the car.

On the second lap, Hine went by me on the straight, left his braking late and spun. My car collected his and went into several rolls. The Sunday Express had the incident as a 12 photograph sequence, the last picture showing me scampering away from the car..."

 

But no mention of the crash here:

 

http://www.motorspor...-trophy-meeting

 

or here:

 

http://www.formula2.net/FJ62_GB18.htm

 

Vince H.

Edited by raceannouncer2003, 02 November 2015 - 04:15.

[Ray Bell]

That description doesn't tie in with the photo...

Great advertisement for harness use.

[Paul Taylor]

It can't be that shunt then, because the car from which the driver has been ejected is a Lotus and Ashdown was driving a Lola. Hmmm.

[wenoopy]

It can't be that shunt then, because the car from which the driver has been ejected is a Lotus and Ashdown was driving a Lola. Hmmm.

 

Umm... Didn't Ashdown say (Post #2) "I told Eric I would be driving The Lotus" ??? etc Which he did, for a lap or so, anyway.

 

Stu Buchanan

[Vitesse2]

Rather than anywhere at Silverstone that location looks a lot more like Druids Hill Bend at Brands Hatch to me ...

[Rob29]

Rather than anywhere at Silverstone that location looks a lot more like Druids Hill Bend at Brands Hatch to me ...

Looks like Silverstone to me I was at the International Trophy meeting that weekend-seem to remember a wet & missable day-have some video of 8mm film I shot-don,t remember this incident and sadly no longer have programmes from that era-driver in Lotus 20 looks familiar.

[Stephen W]

Definitely Silverstone with the scaffolding and Daily Express signage.

[pete53]

Yes Silverstone without a shadow of a doubt. I don't think it is the International Trophy meeting 1962. The Autopsort report makes no mention of such an incident, and, the race was run in wet weather. The photo doesn't suggest a wet track nor are there any umbrellas in evidence. As for it being Peter Ashdown he supposedly finished in 15th place, and John Hine 10th, in the 62 race. A shame the race numbers are not visible.

[2F-001]

<< A shame the race numbers are not visible. >>

Isn't one of them '24'?

 

As Pete53 says, for the '62 race at the International Trophy meet, the F2 Register data linked to above suggests that both Ashdown and Hine finished the race; it seems rather unlikely that both of the cars in that picture would have finished. Such an incident in practice would have surely warranted a mention in that account of trying both chassis.

 

On the other hand - which other meetings would have had that large tv camera platform in use, as it appears to be here?

 

If the pictures appeared in the Express, I wonder if they might have been the work of Victor Blackman; he had a knack for capturing such moments. I can't find an archive or index of his work separate from the newspaper's own ones - although I haven't looked terribly hard. (The picture is not featured in his My way with a camera, but he does include a few similarly spectacular incidents.)

[pete53]

Possibly the British Empire Trophy Meeting 1961. Hine was in a Lola and Ashdown raced the Lotus. The F2 Register is a bit ambiguous and suggests the F2 race was run in 2 parts.

[Roger Clark]

Peter Ashdown drove a Lotus 20 at the 1961 British Empire Trophy Meeting (08/07/61). On the second lap: "there was a tremendous shunt at Copse involving five cars, R Costey's Cooper, J Hine's Lola, K Lyon's Lotus, N Lederle's Lotus and Peter Ashdown's similar car" (Àutosport). Lederle was number 24, Ashdown 29.

There are three photographs, by Lynton Morley. The first shows Hine beginning a spin, the second shows Ashdown about to ram him. The third shows Hine's car stationary in the middle of the track and Ashdown's on the grass verge. Ashdown's car is pictured from the right and it is not possible to be sure whether the left rear wheel is missing but the right rear is leaning over so it might be.

Pete53 posted while I was writing this.

Edited by Roger Clark, 02 November 2015 - 11:36.

[2F-001]

Yes - it suggests that both Ashdown and Hine finished in part one, but with insufficient detail shown to say what became of them in part two.

 

And it does shown a Ashdown as entered also for a Lola, but as 'DNA'. However, the Lolas quoted there for both are Mk3s; I'm not the Lola expert (by any stretch of the imagination...) but the car in the pic isn't what I imagine as Mk3 to be.

 

(Sorry - this was a response to Pete's comment, not Roger's.)

Edited by 2F-001, 02 November 2015 - 11:44.

[pete53]

Yes - it suggests that both Ashdown and Hine finished in part one, but with insufficient detail shown to say what became of them in part two.

 

And it does shown a Ashdown as entered also for a Lola, but as 'DNA'. However, the Lolas quoted there for both are Mk3s; I'm not the Lola expert (by any stretch of the imagination...) but the car in the pic isn't what I imagine as Mk3 to be.

 

(Sorry - this was a response to Pete's comment, not Roger's.)

I have just unearthed the programme. There were two Formula Junior events but with different competitors in each race. Ashdown and Hine raced in the first event. Ashdown (Lola) was no.16 and Hine 17 in the programme, but on the F2 Register it shows Ashdown as 29, a Lotus entered by Superspeed , due to be driven by John Young.

Edited by pete53, 02 November 2015 - 12:02.

[2F-001]

Hmm, so are we concluding that a) Ashdown was recalling a a different event (neither the stated Intnl Trophy meet, nor the British Empire one); and b)  that the picture under discussion is not Ashdown and Hine?

 

Roger - I don't think I have that Autopsort edition; do the pics suggest that any one of the drivers had departed the cockpit before coming to rest? Do they suggest themselves to be of the incident (if not the stated event) that Ashdown recalls, but not the incident in the picture under discussion? (Apologies - I get 'lost' more easily these days.) 

[Roger Clark]

I can't tell from the pictures whether a driver had left the cockpit before coming to rest.  Motor Sport (WB) says that Ashdown's car rolled several times.  Ashdown drove Lolas several times after the BET incident which doesn't quite fit his statement in the Motor Sport article that he drifted away from Eric Broadley after the incident he describes.  My guess is that the picture on this thread shows Ashdown and Neville Lederle in the BET race.

 

i don't know about the incident described by Peter Ashdown.   Hine was 5.8 seconds faster than Ashdown in practice for the '62 International Trophy so he must have made a very poor start indeed if he had to overtake Ashdown on the second lap.  The incident isn't mentioned by Autosport or Motoring News.  It would be a considerable coincidence if Ashdown had more than one accident with Hine in which his car rolled several times.

[Peter Darley]

There are three photographs, by Lynton Morley. The first shows Hine beginning a spin, the second shows Ashdown about to ram him. The third shows Hine's car stationary in the middle of the track and Ashdown's on the grass verge. Ashdown's car is pictured from the right and it is not possible to be sure whether the left rear wheel is missing but the right rear is leaning over so it might be.

Pete53 posted while I was writing this.

The photographer is Lynton MONEY.

[2F-001]

<< ...My guess is that the picture on this thread shows Ashdown and Neville Lederle in the BET race.>>

 

 

That would fit for the race numbers too, wouldn't it? 

 

My comment that Ashdown and Hine both finished that race (race 1, BET '61) was clearly wrong; I was confusing two sets of results - F2 Register doesn't have such info for that race.

Edited by 2F-001, 02 November 2015 - 15:38.

[Roger Clark]

The Formula 1 Register shows Ashdown, Hine and the others involved as crashing after 1 lap.  They were 15th and 10th in the '62 International Trophy race.

[Rob29]

Possibly the British Empire Trophy Meeting 1961. Hine was in a Lola and Ashdown raced the Lotus. The F2 Register is a bit ambiguous and suggests the F2 race was run in 2 parts.

There was no F2 in 1961-63 BET was for Intercontinental formula in '61-as was International Trophy-I went to both meetings-Don't remember 2 supporting FJunior races with different entries- though THREE races-2 heats and a final were quite common in those days.

Edited by Rob29, 02 November 2015 - 17:07.

[Paul Taylor]

I knew I recognised the other driver's face from somewhere. Below is Lederle at another event - helmet and livery match. The second number on the Lotus sans driver has to be an 8 or a 9 as it's rounded at the top, so #29 would fit. Lederle was listed as #24, which you can probably make out in the photo if you look hard enough. Well done/thanks guys.

 

Does anyone know the original source of the photo or where I can find the additional photos by Lynton Money/Morley?

 

[pete53]

There was no F2 in 1961-63 BET was for Intercontinental formula in '61-as was International Trophy-I went to both meetings-Don't remember 2 supporting FJunior races with different entries- though THREE races-2 heats and a final were quite common in those days.

True, I don't know how "junior" turned into "F2" !!?? Yes it was unusual to run two separate FJ races which weren't heats to determine finalists - the 2 FJ races were the first two races of the day both being over 25laps.

[Ray Bell]

While it's pretty obvious that the driver is flying through the air in the lead pic, some other factors need to be considered...

First, his car hasn't rolled and it looks to me like it's unlikely to have gone on and rolled after the shutter came down, certainly not 'several times'.

Second, Lederle might not even be involved in the shunt, he may well be just departing a point to which he drove to escape being in it.

Third, ripping a corner off like that would probably involve significant damage to another car, it's not Lederle's.

[Paul Taylor]

It's definitely been over at least once. Having the other photos in the sequence would help settle it.

[RJE]

When I visited Peter Ashdown several years ago he had large copies of the photographs chronicling the entire sequence of events of this accident, around the walls of his garage.  I recall him telling me that in some ways the accident made up his mind about racing in the future as he was never as happy racing rear engine cars as the front engine variety that he had been so successful in.  Around the time of the accident he had had a successful test for BRM with a view to joining the team, but it all fell through and he never went on to attain the result that perhaps his talents warranted.  

[Paul Taylor]

 

[pete53]

It would have been be interesting to see the whole sequence of events. In the above picture you can just see the other car (who we think is Lederle) under the body of the ejected driver. However, in a short space of time the driver (Ashdown) has rotated from facing downward to upwards, assuming the latest photo that Paul posted was taken before the first. I have noticed before in pictures of drivers being ejected that they sometimes appear to adopt (involuntary of course!) mid-air poses that don't seem to square with what is happening to the car.

[Paul Taylor]

It would have been be interesting to see the whole sequence of events. In the above picture you can just see the other car (who we think is Lederle) under the body of the ejected driver. However, in a short space of time the driver (Ashdown) has rotated from facing downward to upwards, assuming the latest photo that Paul posted was taken before the first. I have noticed before in pictures of drivers being ejected that they sometimes appear to adopt (involuntary of course!) mid-air poses that don't seem to square with what is happening to the car.

 

Ashdown is being thrown out in much the same way as Nigel Corner was at Goodwood, doing a Superman style pose out of the cockpit. Corner was weirdly "frozen" as he left the car, Ashdown seems a bit more "animated"! 

Edited by Paul Taylor, 06 December 2015 - 16:39.

[Paul Taylor]

Search and ye will bear the fruits of thy labour:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All can be purchased through the Daily Mail's photo archive (untagged) for the not too shabby sum of £9.50 a photo.

Edited by Paul Taylor, 06 December 2015 - 17:10.

[pete53]

Thanks Paul. I didn't realise there was a whole sequence of shots of this incident. Anyway, a reasonably soft landing on the perimeter grass. I well remember Nigel Corner's accident - It happened right in front of me. I guess once you are airborn there is not much you can do and you just go with the momentum.