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The Arrival of the 5-second "Street" Car


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#1 Canuck

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 21:06

Heh...I've been trying to write this post for most of the afternoon now, but I keep finding more distracting videos and articles. 

 

Growing up, the notion of a five or six hundred horsepower daily driver car was outlandish. Anything "serious" needed a steady supply of race fuel or octane boost and was wholly unsuitable for any real travel on the street for all but the most dedicated gluttons for punishment.

 

30-odd years later and we can buy 600hp (or more) family wagons with full OEM warranty, American-made cars with superchargers from the factory and we've developed an entirely new class of exotic - the hypercar with offerings over 1000 HP. I am amazed at the level of OEM horsepower available in your local showroom today.

 

The technology trickle-down to hot rods has been equally amazing. It wasn't that long ago that a 9 second street car was fast. It's still fast, but it can be done with relative ease - a GM LS with head studs and a large turbo will put you in the 9s. There's 19 year old Alex Taylor with her air-conditioned / power steering / roll up window daily driver Camaro that runs 8s. And the Drag Week Unlimited classes...wow...I mean WOW!  Larry Larson ran a 5.95 at 244 mph, hooked the parts trailer to the back of the race car and drove it 300 miles to the next track as part of it's ~1200 mile 5-day event. It's just astonishing to see the degree of civility that people have figured out how to dial into their monsters.   3000+hp engines that roam the street. Boggles the mind.



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#2 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 21:55

I have looked at bits of that event on You Tube.  The 'unlimited' cars are NOT street cars. They are out and out competition cars. HotRod has copped plenty of flack too about their events. I am surprised the law just does not book many of those drivers on the road. VW emissions?  Naah methanol burning cars on the street! Some which are quite late models too.

The  Alex Taylor high 8 sec Camaro could be called a street car however. Rollcage and parachute notwithstanding. There seems to be quite a few in that area though she is the prettiest! And very consistent. Though going that quick with a standard Camaro seat is probably not very clever, though she does use a HANS device!



#3 dbltop

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 04:13

A rollcage and/or parachute would not not make a car illegal would it?



#4 Catalina Park

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 06:11

A rollcage and/or parachute would not not make a car illegal would it?

 

It would in some places.



#5 bigleagueslider

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 06:29

The roll cage and parachute would not be illegal for driving on public roads. But lack of side mirrors, removal of emission control devices, non-DOT rated tires, and excessive engine noise would all be violations.



#6 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:07

In most places a rollcage is illegal. They are actually dangerous with all those bars every where to bang your head and limbs on. Ok with a helmet and harness. Those too are illegal.

In many places you can get dispensation for such in rally/ competition vehicles. For competition only really,, not cruising the streets.

 

Many of those cars have street tyres to commute on and race tyres for the track. A little more sensible.

 

The US seems to be  a paradox, on one hand quite restrictive rules on new cars, the other some very wild and silly road cars.

 

As I said before cars like Alex Taylors are  the 'spirit' of a very fast street car. Not road legal but totally recognisable as what it is.  unlike those full composite body out and out drag cars with rego plates and a towbar!

 

The Aussie 'attack' was a mixed bag. A very unsorted 9 sec! Torana, A very unsorted HQ Coupe, a paddock find 14 sec 396 4 speed Chevelle full gunker, and the 7.50 WA Charger which while a racecar at least looks like a Charger.

Though I would love to know how you can legally drive those right hook cars on US roads legally.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 08 November 2015 - 09:11.


#7 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 15:29

It depends on the age of the vehicle and the state it's in. In California anything older than 1975 is smog exempt so you are free to go crazy with the drivestrain. Safety equipment is also required in vehicles that did not come with it, including seat belts.

 

The eyebrow raising thing for me about driving a 5 second car on the street would be the handling. Can a spooled rear end car turn at all at highway speeds?



#8 BRG

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 19:00

In most places a rollcage is illegal. They are actually dangerous with all those bars every where to bang your head and limbs on. Ok with a helmet and harness. Those too are illegal.

In many places you can get dispensation for such in rally/ competition vehicles. For competition only really,, not cruising the streets.

 

Thank heavens I live in the Land of the Free.  In this case*, Britain, where you can have a roll cage if you want, use a full harness if you want (we have to use a minimum of lap and diagonal) and even wear a helmet if you want, although the MSA forbid rally crews to do so on road sections for some reason (not seeming to be competing on the road, presumably).  I should imagine the same applies in most European countries TBH.

 

 

* but in precious few other cases!



#9 Canuck

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 19:37

The rules explicitly require the use of slicks or DOT-approved slicks for tracks portions with the rule directly above it stating "All tire rules apply only on the drag strip and not for the street drive.". Anyone running tires non-DOT approved tires on the street are doing so without reason.

 

A bit of imagineering and creativity should easily address noise and equipment issues. Larson's truck uses a removable sidepipe exhaust that connects to the turbo dumps for street sections. I would think, depending on the age of the vehicle, a single driver's side mirror in addition to the rear view mirror would meet the spirit and letter of the law and could be quickly removed at the track. In fact, I pulled up Tina Pierce's 8-second Colorado, Alex's Camaro and the aforementioned Larson's truck and they all have outside mirrors. Maybe I just got lucky.

 

Aesthetically, the pro mod cars are fugly - functionally ugly. I don't like them to look at, but it's hard to argue they aren't streetable when they drive themselves around the country to the various tracks without a support crew, motorhome, support trailer and all the rest. Driver, passenger(s) and one trailer no larger than 142 cubic feet (~8'L x 4'W x 4'H). I would agree that the "street" is rather ambiguous. They're all required to have full registration and insurance (no fleet or dealer plates).

 

(Edited for posting before finished)

 

My idea of a street car includes functional windshield wipers and wash system, a windshield heater/defrost/defogger system that isn't a rag on a stick, windows that open and close and preferably A/C. I've made more than my share long summer holiday drives in overheated boxes. Because it's easy to address, it should be no louder than a typical turbo-muffler style muscle car when not on the track.

 

I have a "home built" motorcycle that I built years ago that we had no problem getting registered and insured, but I'm not sure how one would go about getting something like Tom Bailey's race car done. Perhaps the same way...


Edited by Canuck, 08 November 2015 - 19:49.


#10 Canuck

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 19:52

Oh - and no issues with roll cages here either. I doubt there's an issue with the 'chutes but if there is it's likely like any number of other tickets that are only issued when you've asked for it like excess noise, inadequate fender coverage of the tire and the like.



#11 Magoo

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 02:18

At HOT ROD I used to cover the Drag Week and Pump Gas Drags, etc. A few observations... 

 

1. With modern EFI and turbo technology, a modern production car can be made to run in the 8s or 9s with relative ease. All it takes is money, essentially. These are reasonable street cars for the most part except they won't meet emissions standards. But you can drive them around with no more compromise than oh, the average street rod. 

 

2. The unlimited cars -- Larson and that ilk -- are, as Lee notes, not street cars in any real sense. Mainly they are Pro Mod/Top Sportsman type cars limping around on the road. It's not so much people making street cars go fast, but what people are willing to call a street car.

 

To me, the exercise lost the plot some years back. I was approached to write an "expose" slam piece on the scene for another publisher, but I declined. I have no ill will toward the thing or any of the people involved, none whatsoever, just don't find the racing very compelling. 



#12 Bob Riebe

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 03:42

Having read about these in Hot Rod for some time THIS:  It's just astonishing to see the degree of civility that people have figured out how to dial into their monsters. from what I have simply does not exist in the fastest cars.

 

For the most part they suffer from the same, and far worse, problems  radical street cars suffered from fifty years ago.

 

One differnce is back then few used blowers of any type, it was simply get the most HP you could through carbs or rarely fuel injection.

 

I used to love blowers as a yout but now to me that is the easy cheat to get horsepower which says nothing about the basic engine platform.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 09 November 2015 - 03:45.


#13 Canuck

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:10

@Magoo - Reading about the build of Larsons truck, it seems he shares a similar feeling - that a pro-mod car by any other name is not a street car.

The degree of civility is all relative Bob. Radical street cars 50 years ago didn't run thousands(!!!) of horsepower so while they may be fighting similar issues, they're doing it with multiples of the power. No carbs drooling fuel down tunnel ram intakes and slobbering fuel out the tailpipe while they foul the plugs at anything under WOT.

The adoption of forced induction is a no-brainer. That or 900+ cubic inch engines or exotic fuels or both. If we're speed limited by the amount of fuel we can reasonably burn in a given span of time, we can go F1's direction, scaling back displacement and speed to put all the effort into aero or build more power. If we limit the fuel to gasoline and methanol, the math plots out the course of action pretty quickly. Any given ET will require a combination of weight, power and aero load. Min weights are spec'd, aero is somewhat confined by the "street car" designation, so you're left with only power. Even if your engine came from the finest minds in ICE physics and chemistry, you're not going to come close to matching the performance of forced induction. Besides, why does the use of forced induction equate to sub-standard "basic engine platform"? I used to love blowers too, but fell for turbos a decade ago and never looked back.

#14 mariner

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 12:29

Having just been in the USA waht impresses me more in many ways is that I can now ( per Motor Trend) walk into a Chevy showroom and buy a 2016 Camaro  with 455 bhp which wil do a  quoted 9.3 second 0 -100 mph time and can used as a rental car its so normal.

 

Thats probably quicker than an M3 BMW and the old one did 0 - 100 mph in 10.3 secs so with another 30 bhp and 200lb less weight the 9.3 for the  new one sounds realstic.

 

Lovely though old muscle cars are I don't think US speed customers have ever been better served and it meets all the emissions /CAFE/safety stuff put on the mfrs over the last 30 years.

 

I wont even talk about the $42K list price!, that wont even buy you a BMW 320d in the UK even if you take the 20% VAT off.



#15 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 16:16

You can't compare $ to £ using the exchange rate, I've always assumed comparing them as equivalents is more accurate. Even then the $ car costs look extremely cheap compared to the UK! That said  a £42k BMW 335D gets you 4.9s 0-62mph and amazing economy. I'm assuming US car purchase taxation is far less as per fuel costs?


Edited by Tenmantaylor, 09 November 2015 - 16:52.


#16 Bob Riebe

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 02:32

@Magoo - Reading about the build of Larsons truck, it seems he shares a similar feeling - that a pro-mod car by any other name is not a street car.
 I used to love blowers too, but fell for turbos a decade ago and never looked back.

To me a turbo is just another.



#17 Bob Riebe

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 02:41

Having just been in the USA waht impresses me more in many ways is that I can now ( per Motor Trend) walk into a Chevy showroom and buy a 2016 Camaro  with 455 bhp which wil do a  quoted 9.3 second 0 -100 mph time and can used as a rental car its so normal.

 

Thats probably quicker than an M3 BMW and the old one did 0 - 100 mph in 10.3 secs so with another 30 bhp and 200lb less weight the 9.3 for the  new one sounds realstic.

 

Lovely though old muscle cars are I don't think US speed customers have ever been better served and it meets all the emissions /CAFE/safety stuff put on the mfrs over the last 30 years.

 

I wont even talk about the $42K list price!, that wont even buy you a BMW 320d in the UK even if you take the 20% VAT off.

I find the fuel mileage now attainable with computers and fuel injection to be fascinating.

Tweny years ago, maybe the book is stil out there one of high performance gurus put out a soft-back on how to make ANY car more efficient.

He said in the prelude there is no reason any car, especially the high buck Italian cars should only 12 mpg, going on to say that happened because people were ignorant and lazy about how a car, regardless of HP should actually be performing.

The book was obviously how to help you get your super car to perform close to what it really should be as far as mpg and other items.

 

If one were to spend the money to buy a new Camaro or Corvette, or what ever, on one thirty, forty etc. plus years old it could come close to or match todays car with knowledge gained and current tires.

Call me old fashinioned but I beleive most of todays buyers are even more ignorant than those in the day his book was first published!



#18 bigleagueslider

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 04:57

It depends on the age of the vehicle and the state it's in. In California anything older than 1975 is smog exempt so you are free to go crazy with the drivestrain. Safety equipment is also required in vehicles that did not come with it, including seat belts.

 

The eyebrow raising thing for me about driving a 5 second car on the street would be the handling. Can a spooled rear end car turn at all at highway speeds?

In California it is legal to have a roll cage as long as it does not obstruct the driver's view or access to the vehicle's controls. Strangely though, it is not legal for the driver of a car to wear a helmet on public highways.



#19 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:41

For hearing purposes I suppose? Same reason you can't have earbuds or headphones on both ears.



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#20 Canuck

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 15:06

I've spent a lot of time in a motorcycle helmet and it's pretty hard to argue that despite having no other obstructions around you, a full-face helmet reduces your perception of things happening in the periphery. Add in B and C pillars, headrests, the requisite package shelf detritus and whatever else and I can't imagine the outcome would be positive.

I have little doubt the buying public is less informed about how their car works than ever. I think the same could be said of almost any product these days. Short of a bicycle or a dinner fork (and we're losing the bikes too), everything has been packed full of electronics to control, manipulate, alter, record, display and of course share everything. Internet controlled deadbolts on your front door, networked coffee pots and smart fridges. It's simply not possible to keep abreast of how it all works.

In one of my programming courses, it was remarked that "there is a package for everything in R. The only thing it won't do is make you coffee". Now with networked coffee pots, there's a package for that too.

#21 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 16:03

I believe open face helmets fall under the ban too though.

 

https://www.dmv.ca.g...2/c5/a3.5/27400



#22 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 11:25

Personally I would not usually drive a car with a rollcage on the street. Apart from the legalities the number of scrapes and scuffs on my helmet says it all. That with padded rollbars too.

About my extent is driving to the dyno or wheel aligner, both within a mile.

Drag week too was interesting,, the Aussie owned Chevelle was being driven sans helmet and in thongs! 14 sec and 100mph makes that bloody stupid.

40 + years ago when I did street drags in 18 sec clunkers we had to have a specification helmet, long sleeve attire and lap sash mininum seat belts as well as battery secured and the like.

I did do those events in various clunkers,, the best was a EH Holden wagon [hydramatic!] that I bought Sat morning for $50 and raced reliably Sunday. Full race prep, adjusted the brakes, filled a 60l drum with rubbish and dirt and wired the battery down! [did not go well at scrutineering though passed] and a blast up the highway to give it a tune up/ clean out.

 

I have been known for similar at hillclimbs though the cars were a bit better. One of those was so good the clerk of course pinched it as a course car!



#23 Canuck

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 22:16

Race Engine Technology claims a new measurement tool from AVL has successfully measured the output of the U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster at 10,000 hp at Reading and 11,000 hp in California (one run a piece). That's a mighty impressive number by any standard.



#24 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 00:13

I saw that the other day. I could have sworn that most teams were already running strain gauges on the driveshaft, are those not sufficiently accurate to have given the same data? My impression from cycling power meters was that silicon strain gauges were rather accurate when measuring metallic materials.



#25 gruntguru

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 23:11

Yes, one would have thought that would give a good indication (plus or minus a thousand horse power).



#26 Greg Locock

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 02:28

You could certainly build a torque sensor from strain gauges that is more accurate than +/-5%, but whether slapping a few strain gauges onto a shaft and then wirelessly transmitting the results would give that accuracy is a different question. To be honest most of the time we go by the second philosophy, 5% errors won't kill us, waiting for the test lab to stick 64 strain gauges down will.



#27 Magoo

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 02:41

Magnetostrictive torque sensing, I take from the video. 


Edited by Magoo, 23 November 2015 - 02:44.


#28 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 09:36

Race Engine Technology claims a new measurement tool from AVL has successfully measured the output of the U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster at 10,000 hp at Reading and 11,000 hp in California (one run a piece). That's a mighty impressive number by any standard.

Detune 1 or 2 thousand HP to hook it up!



#29 Canuck

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 14:06

20-22 HP / CI is astonishing. In excess of 1200 HP per litre (and cylinder).

#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 09:35

20-22 HP / CI is astonishing. In excess of 1200 HP per litre (and cylinder).

Not really, nitro and very large superchargers makes the power. run the engine a minute then throw a LOT of new components at it. That is if it has not explodes.

Those streetable 8 & 9 sec engines though do amaze. They do a thousand plus miles and 5 race meets with a bit of luck without engine dramas. 

Not road cars, but the engines can be driven thus.



#31 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 23:37

Not really, nitro and very large superchargers makes the power. run the engine a minute then throw a LOT of new components at it. That is if it has not explodes.

Those streetable 8 & 9 sec engines though do amaze. They do a thousand plus miles and 5 race meets with a bit of luck without engine dramas. 

Not road cars, but the engines can be driven thus.

The articles on these boys traveling from local to local is good reading on perseverence.

 

Uncomfortable in moderate weather, these boys learn how to put up with heat , wet and wet heat as there is no other choice.

 

That plus the road side repairs in miserable circumstances make me respect these boys greatly.



#32 Canuck

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 06:04

The 8 and 9 second cars idle through the drive through like kittens.

I understand the calculations behind the nitro engines, 20 years ago we were talking several hundred hp per cylinder, now they're in excess of 1200. On (ostensibly) the same fuel. This 2005 article suggests an output of 7500 hp. If they're legitimately at 11,000 today, that's a 50 percent increase to an already astonishing performance. You can say point and the fuel and dismiss it, but it's still amazing.
http://www.motortren...p-fuel-numbers/

#33 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 15:22

And it seems that they're making it down the track more often without blowing up or lighting the tires. The fuel classes used to be about which car could actually stayed hooked up and now the big teams have to stay on top of the setup or risk being upset.



#34 bigleagueslider

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 08:11

Magnetostrictive torque sensing, I take from the video. 

That's what they stated in the video. Magnetostrictive sensing has been used for a few years to measure dynamic torque in a rotating metal shaft. While it is surely quite accurate at measuring dynamic torque in a drive axle, it is not so easy to establish an accurate measurement of power produced at the flywheel of an engine using the data produced by this sensing device. If you watch the video, they admit that the actual power produced by the engine is probably closer to 7000hp. I doubt that even if the engine was capable of producing 10,000hp, there is no way the car could make use of that amount of power.