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Computer screens in passenger cars: the ergonomics


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#1 Terry Walker

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 02:21

Years ago I was taught that ideally controls used by the driver on the road, eg wiper, light switches, radio controls and the like should be operable without looking at them, Just by feel and location.

 

Now I see smart-phone type interfaces on a central screen, which definitely DO need to be looked at, and read, when being operated. You have to look, you have to place finger precisely on the right icon, and watch the result. They are getting bigger and bigger and having more and more functions stuffed into them.

 

I have no personal experience with them (my modern car dates from 2000, my other one from 1970), but I can't help thinking that they must be bloody dangerous and distracting.

 

There's been regress, not progress, in this sort of cockpit ergonomics. Just how distracting are these dashboard interfaces?



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#2 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:05

It's very simple, anything that takes your attention and eyes off the road ahead means that you have suddenly lost awareness of what's really happening. During our license test we've all become aware of reaction time, how long it takes you to react to something then make the appropriate correction. The longer that time is, the more dangerous it becomes.



#3 Greg Locock

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:22

I'm pretty thoroughly opposed to the trend towards touch screens, and even worse joysticky mousy things, to control anything the driver needs while moving. What's interesting is how much of your attention is diverted just by using a voice operated control, there again the last study I saw mentioned but did not emphasise that talking on a hands free cellphone was less distracting than talking with passengers. No agenda to see there.



#4 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 11:29

Hi Terry :wave:

 

Great topic and extremely valid questions. Whilst I largely agree with your view on safety first I would recommend you try using a few of the systems first as at least then your opinions will carry more weight. For example the trend in modern cars featuring these systems is to have all the functions you mention in the same place as before OR now on the steering wheel which is arguably even safer than reaching over to the centre console. Not many driving critical functions are accessible primarily through the touch screen.

 

Jaguar-XE-Review-UK-First-Drive-Steering

 

I've tried many of these interfaces from different brands and some are much better/safer than others. I will reply in more detail later.


Edited by Tenmantaylor, 10 November 2015 - 11:33.


#5 Terry Walker

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 08:02

Today I replaced the battery on my daily driver, and you can guess: all the settings on the sound system reverted to default. The system is very fancy, with four tiny buttons (unidentified) and a touch screen. All I want my car system to do (no one else drives my car) is play the radio station of my choice, which stays the same.  What I now have (again) is moving "screen savers", as well as an authoritative voice telling me what I've just done, not to mention an infuriating electronic music chord every time I turn on or turn off the ignition.

 

It took me about ten minutes, with the manual, Just to find out how to go to my usual station and set it.  Through nested menus on a touch screen. I still haven't managed to cancel the unwanted audio prompts, even with the manual in front of me, because the nested menus are in someone else's order of priority. The things I want to do are well buried somewhere in those nested menus behind the touch screen..

 

I remember when I bought the car I managed to get rid of all the unwanted rubbish and get the thing working just as a radio, on my usual station. It took a long tussle with the manual and the interface, which is outrageously hostile, to achieve that, and now I've got to work it all out again.  (There is a rechargeable button battery, to retain these settings, but it's only meant to last a short period, like an hour or so. Due to my location, my car was without a battery for two days).

 

I don't imagine that the central entertainment/ bluetooth/ computer interface in the new cars is much easier to use.

 

As to the main driving controls, they're okay usually these days. My query is with the distraction potential of the central video screen and its gaudy multiple toys and its touch screen and its menus which you must read to use. 



#6 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 13:11

100% with you Terry. All the B/S sprouted about using phones but this gimmickry requires far more attention than answering a phone.

It is beyond me to make the dash work after a flat battery. I get a young person in to do it! The usual one has 4 years at uni to educate him.

Though I am hi tech, when  all is working I can change the radio station and even feed a disc in too. To do that though I have to stop. On the ute I can change stations with steering wheel controls. The 'Cruiser is simpler but harder too. Not ergodynamic at all. Designed for a person 6" shorter with arms as long as mine.

 

I have bitched before about the non uniformity of controls. Every vehicle is different, even just to put the seat back. Even from the same manufacturer.Try to set the trip, use the cruise even turn the bloody lights or wiper on requires study, sometimes the manual,, if the car has it. 

 

When you lose the radio code look at the page in the manual, it is very often  handwritten there. Several times too I have found emergency money in the manuals too,The best was $500. On a car I paid $1500 for.



#7 MatsNorway

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 16:37

Just wait for this stuff to get 10-20 years old when the manual is gone.  People will go bald faster than normal progress intented..


Edited by MatsNorway, 11 November 2015 - 16:37.


#8 munks

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 18:33

I'm with the rest of the dinosaurs on this one ... the modern controls on the cars we have are non-intuitive at best and infuriating at worst. With the recent time change, all I wanted to do was change the blasted time. Couldn't figure it out, so I had my son look through the manual. That still didn't help. Why? Because nowhere did it say that the radio had to be on in order to change the time. Even though you can see the time when the radio is off. This was a Ford, which despite my griping is still actually 5x ergonomically better than the new Toyota we have (don't get me started on the keyless fob ... which requires me to start the engine in order to turn the radio on).



#9 Canuck

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 19:39

Add me to the list. I want a knob or a button that can be activated while wearing gloves. Sure, now the dash can do anything I ask of it, but it's going to take me 6 weeks of studying to figure it out. When what we used to call the head unit in the Lexus packed it in and would only play audio from the rear seat DVD player, we had to send it off for what I'm sure was a $0.10 resistor somewhere. It took weeks to get back, in the middle of summer, and the audio unit, for absolutely inexplicable reasons, includes the HVAC controls. Handy when it rains and the windows fog up.

 

On the other hand, I do like that I can hop in the Expedition and with no actions on my part now, my phone will connect to the Ford's system and allow seamless hands-free phone and music playback. At the same time, it requires a sequence of 681 deftly executed button pushes to activate the rear seat audio controls that allow the monsters to watch a movie while using the headsets. Every Time.



#10 Talisman

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 21:15

Agree about having too much information and knobs situated too far out of the normal driving field of view, however sadly I feel that even if new cars had as few buttons as a '67 beetle drivers would be intently staring and tapping away at handheld iPhones instead...

#11 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 22:03

Just wait for this stuff to get 10-20 years old when the manual is gone.  People will go bald faster than normal progress intented..

Mats,, you are supposed to recycle the car 3 times in 10 years.

There is a LOTof cars around that the screen has gone out on. Wether it be the screen itself, or the myriad of electronics that allow it too work. Plus things like heater controls too,, instead of a simple  $25 tap to turn the heater on you have a $500 heater interface module that they built the car around so another 4-6 hours to replace. These, and the dash are VERY voltage specific. have a alternator overcharge  and there  goes the elctronics,, or undercharge too. Poor eaths too will kill them.

NEVER buy a flood damaged car, just the humidity alone from the wet carpets etc can and will kill the electronics in general. Which cost more than the car to fix. IF you can find someone who knows how. Most so called experts do not.



#12 mariner

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 00:55

We have  an interesting back to  back test of big screens. We rented a Ford Fusion SE spec for two weeks in USA then picked up our new Mondeo, top level spec (nearly) in Uk with a big screen and full bells and whistles. Basically the same car but the SE has a little screen.

 

 

The big screen and its features is far more distracting than the small one which had no satnav. I'm sure we will get used to it and it has many clever featues but , so far, it doesnt help the driving experience.

 

The actual car is great, huge space for occupants and luggage,super ride, 240 bhp  from a 2 litre turbo motor and its claimed to do 149 mph. I can even talk to it to order pizza with my smartphone linked .

 

with the dash/controls of my 1985 Saab and a pop up satnav screen  it would be perfect!

 

Not knocking progress but I think the designers are stlll learning how much to provide and still in the " we can, we will, mode

 

BTW it has 123 , yes 123 fuses!


Edited by mariner, 12 November 2015 - 01:16.


#13 Terry Walker

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 02:09

It's fairly well established that the bits of the brain used to drive the car are the same bits of the brain needed to operate a touch screen or mobile phone. The time lag taken to shift concentration from one task to the other is much greater than your normal reflex speed (typically 0.5 of a second from stimulus to twitch.) So anything in the drivers' reach or control that requires eyes and hands at the same time, away from the road, while the car is driving, is inherently hazardous.

 

A lot of equipment, including in cars, has the interface all wrong. In the case of, say, my car radio/CD player, the default should be: basic radio/CD, no gimmicks. If the owner wants the gimmicks, he should have to add them himself to suit himself.  Then a single touch which in future loads this suite instead of basic. But as in so many electronic bits, the default on my radio/CD player is gimmick laden, and there is no "basic" setting. You have to hunt and kill the gimmicks one by one. That is, in my view, a hostile interface. (It should be the same process as when you set up your "memory seat" position in your new car.. You fiddle around until you get comfy, then save the setting).

 

Now I'm no reactionary when it comes to technology. Among other things I design and run websites, create e-books, use whizzo latest model digital Nikons, shoot full HD digital video and edit it to make DVDs and BluRay discs. So I have enough experience with interfaces good and bad to know bad ones when I use them. Anything which buries the basic under the gimmicks is a  bad interface. Anything that takes your attention away from the main task is a bad interface. This is critical when driving.

 

That is, bad ergonomics.



#14 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 04:33

It is a wonder the nanny state governments have not got to this more. It is illegal here to use a handheld ph, use a touch screen/ GPS etc  with the engine running.

I have yet to ever use a GPS, the things are so often wrong and being old enough to normally know where I am going anyway. Better ones though are a good speedo,, cheap ones are too erratic.

I can look at a street directory and be on the road before others have typed in the adress to where they wish to go.

 

I am a desperado though as I answer my handheld ph then use the speaker function. I know the world will end but I am a thrill seeker!

However I never make a call when driving, never text when driving [or any other time]  Though I do make calls when parked with the engine running though.

Recently I got pulled over for looking at my clock,, on the ph. The car I was in does not have a clock. And like many I do not wear a watch these days. I did get away with it,, I proved that I had not made or recieved a call or text. 

This is where Big brother nanny state lunacy is taking over our lives. 



#15 blkirk

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 14:35

I'll even go so far as to say that I hate, no make that loathe, the autodimming rear view mirror in my car.  I have poorer than average light sensitivity, so I almost never dim the mirror.  If I do dim the mirror, I can't tell which lane cars are in because I can't see any reference points in the mirror.  I rarely wear sunglasses because the sun doesn't really bother me that much.  About the only time it does bother me is when it's reflecting in my rearview mirror.  Which is the only time the mirror doesn't dim because the light sensor on the back side of the mirror says it's light outside.  

 

The mirror does have a button that lets you turn auto-dimming on and off.  No points will be awarded for guessing which state is the default each and every time I start the car.

 

I need to take a bottle of white-out to my car and just paint over the stupid sensor.  Then the button would actually give me control over the mirror the same way as the old flip lever used to.  Well, almost as much control.  The old flip lever would remember which setting I used last.  The button never will.



#16 MatsNorway

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 20:51

Mats,, you are supposed to recycle the car 3 times in 10 years.

Then future car quality will be determined by the electronics more than the mechanics.

 

Anyway.. If there is a marked someone will fix the need in that marked. So expect replacement systems to pop up. Hell.. in time fully replacement systems might be the desire. Tailored for the customer.



#17 BRG

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 21:02

Anyway.. If there is a market someone will fix the need in that market. So expect replacement systems to pop up. Hell.. in time fully replacement systems might be the desire. Tailored for the customer.

Fifteen or twenty years back, when electronics were really starting to be used in cars, people were predicting a big problem when the cars got older.  But everyone was moving forward - all the little back street garages now have hand held diagnostic kit for every make -back in the day it was some huge cabinet and only worked for one make.  You can get cars rechipped for a few pounds by private companies.  It looks like the market does respond - water flows downhill!  As long as the manufacturers never get their way over OEM and dealer service only.



#18 gruntguru

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 22:47

It's fairly well established that the bits of the brain used to drive the car are the same bits of the brain needed to operate a touch screen or mobile phone.

The perfect Segway into the autonomous vehicle era.



#19 Catalina Park

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 08:59

The perfect Segway into the autonomous vehicle era.

Exactly.



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#20 Kelpiecross

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 11:39

Can you use the word "Segway" in this sense? - I have not seen it before.                    



#21 Terry Walker

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 13:00

Segue. Pronounced segway.. Or so I'm told, I have no French.



#22 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 00:05

Then future car quality will be determined by the electronics more than the mechanics.

 

Anyway.. If there is a marked someone will fix the need in that marked. So expect replacement systems to pop up. Hell.. in time fully replacement systems might be the desire. Tailored for the customer.

The main reason that as I have got older I do far less repairs. The cars are stupidly hi tech and are often stupidly expensive to diagnose then repair. 

The same reason that I seldom deal in cars anymore as the warranty can kill you

The reason that modern cars have far less trade in value percentage wise than older cars did in their day. I reckon in my area alone there is half the used car yards now. Even the big franchise dealerships are closing sites and more and more that dictates the market.

Talking to a contact in a major multi car new car franchise and warranty on used cars is burning them badly with the cost of parts. Yet alone labor.Though they are paying not much less than retail for their workshop to do the repairs. Against company  policy they do send some elsewhere. Then a $5000 job becomes 20%+ less. And even $4000 warranty on a $10000 car which a independent dealer would sell for max $9000

And generally 5 y/o cars are their maximum age to resell unless it is  screaming glamour OR they have paid too much to trade it. That is often called buying business something on occasion big dealers do to improve their sales figures. Which has been known to tip them over in the past too. Or at least have used car managers and wholesale managers leave as they cannot do their jobs. And sales people too as they work their backsides off to sell a used car then get  bugger all in commission.



#23 Greg Locock

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:01

Yet in other countries there is a lively trade in used cars >5 yo. I suggest that australia's pampered car dealers are merely out of touch with the market.



#24 Kelpiecross

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 04:03

I had never actually heard of the word "segue"  before.    But recently I have heard a few people refer to things such as a covered passage between buildings as a something pronounced "segway" (or "segue") - I thought that they just a bit mental - apparently not.                   



#25 Greg Locock

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 06:07

I think back in the day it was a little transition piece linking two pieces of music.



#26 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:02

Yet in other countries there is a lively trade in used cars >5 yo. I suggest that australia's pampered car dealers are merely out of touch with the market.

Greg,, the manufacturers are out of touch with reality!

I have 40 + years in the industry and the manufacturers have to a large extent pushed out small workshops for servicing and mainteneance as has been their want for decades.

The cars them selves whatever brand cost more to repair than replace,, they are becoming the three year 100000km throwaway consumer item. yet by legislation us poor stupid dealers have to [in this state at least] warranty them for 15 years or 200000km. 

This includes  internal heating cooling systems suspension brakes,engine trans and all the whiz bang electronics. Which are the biggest grief.

EDIT,, the VW scenario at the moment actually means that some used car dealers are legally liable to rectify the illegal cars. I doubt it will happen. Since the OEM seems able to get out of it. But a bit scarey for all. remember some of these cars are in effect old clunkers @ 5 years old.

The VERY FEW cars that do go O/S [besides the stolen ones!] go to markets that accept them if they run. No warranties, no roadworthys, no pollution laws for cars that the manufacturers do not provide parts for. Which in Oz is 7 years. Yeah right! The aftermarket picks the eyes out of it with cheaper fast moving parts,, except when the manufacturer has a hissy fit. To my knowledge in the last 2 years that has been Holden, Toymota and Ford and I believe VW too. only on some random parts, sometimes parts that are so way overpriced as to be rediculous. Yet these same manufacturers IF they do supply have them made by the cheapest tender and on the odd occasion are absolute junk,, or just do not fit at all.

 

Hands up all repairers who see generic el cheapo parts come out of genuine packaging,, worse sometimes not even that. Just the manufacturers sticker.

Yet alone the dealers who buy generic parts then sell then off at genuine prices. That happens a lot,, generally obsolete parts too be fair but sometimes current too. That is ALL the mainstream manufacturers and importers in this country.

The Euro and smaller brands generally work on backorder. When enough orders are there they have the part made. Or just bring the parts in from overseas.

The bike industry has done this for decades. My brother runs the workshop for a major dealership and is often storing well in excess of a million bucks worth of bikes. Often for weeks and occasionally months. This itself a problem for both space and insurance. IF their was ever a major fire, explosion, terrorism etc the liability is really unclear.

And cars take up a LOT more space. Euro dealers sometimes have holding yard elsewhere for the dead cars. Though a bit hard for disabled crash jobs or cars not on wheels. And on occasion they get trapped in the yard too by other broken cars when the parts do turn up.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 14 November 2015 - 07:06.


#27 Terry Walker

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:57

I read this morning that the latest top of the line BMW now has hand-wave and pinch (gesture?) technology as part of its central screen system. Identical, i gather, (though its hard to tell from the gosh-gee-whiz article) to smart phone tech. Given that the centre screen are very close to being built-in smart phones anyway, it makes weird sense.

 

But again, have any of these developments been thoroughly tested for their safety in use while driving? I think the answer is no.



#28 Canuck

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 15:42

I think the fact that it's a screen says almost everything. Screens are for looking at, looking at screens means not looking at the road. Knobs and buttons.

Lee - used car dealers have to warranty cars for 15 years? I'm gob smacked. That's insane. Manufacturers don't offer that (here), how can an independent reseller do it?

#29 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 21:27

I think the fact that it's a screen says almost everything. Screens are for looking at, looking at screens means not looking at the road. Knobs and buttons.

Lee - used car dealers have to warranty cars for 15 years? I'm gob smacked. That's insane. Manufacturers don't offer that (here), how can an independent reseller do it?

3 months warranty for cars up to 15y/o under 200000k



#30 Canuck

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 23:48

Hahahah. That makes way more sense.

#31 munks

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 05:36

Segue. Pronounced segway.. Or so I'm told, I have no French.

Sort of funny story. I had at one point heard the pronunciation "segway" and was also aware of the written word "segue". Despite roughly understanding the definitions of both, I hadn't actually made the connection. So in conversation one day, I properly used the word but pronounced it "seeg". I got ripped a new one.

(Probably not as bad as a female acquaintance who complained to a new boyfriend about all those "pa-swade-oh-intellectuals". You mean pseudo-intellectuals, darling?)