47 replies to this topic

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Look at the picture, the blue line could be the new pit exit route directly to corner 7. Normally, a pit stop cost around 20 to 25 seconds. With the new layout it could be reduced to 10 seconds or even less, it depends on how fast the cars are allowed to go there.

 

Possible consequences: Drivers could push the tyres more, Pirelli could provide less-degrading tyres, one-stop races would be unlikely

 

What do you think about it? Good, bad, ugly, artificial...

 

[V8 Fireworks]

:shakes head:

[Marklar]

I think you would even gain time with a pitstop there...

Edited by Marklar, 11 November 2015 - 14:24.

[Ross Stonefeld]

With that layout do you get close to it being faster to drive through the pitlane every lap? That's a bit of a shortcut...

[GoGro]

You should have drawn the line up to turn 15, at least it would have been fun.

 

Otherwise, stupid idea.

[Nonesuch]

The picture doesn't really help the argument; but reducing pitstop time could be an interesting thing to explore.

 

First we'd probably need to figure out how the time lost in a stop measures up against other reasons for and against making a pitstop, just to get a good idea of how relevant this really is.

 

Are there more pitstops at tracks where pitstops take less time?

 

Are there examples of tracks were people set out to do less stops because of the pitlane length?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

So the exit of the pit lane is after turn 3?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 11 November 2015 - 14:39.

[Marklar]

The picture doesn't really help the argument; but reducing pitstop time could be an interesting thing to explore.
 
First we'd probably need to figure out how the time lost in a stop measures up against other reasons for and against making a pitstop, just to get a good idea of how relevant this really is.
 
Are there more pitstops at tracks where pitstops take less time?
 
Are there examples of tracks were people set out to do less stops because of the pitlane length?

Fastest pit stop times in 2015 by circuit

Abu Dhabi 21.546 (2014)
Hungary 21.574
Australia 21.612
Austria 21.685
Spain 21.762
Mexico 22.156
China 22.235
Belgium 22.403
Japan 22.584
Brazil 22.620 (2014)
Canada 23.321
Italy 23.884
Malaysia 23.996
USA 24.088
Monaco 24.181
Bahrain 24.310
GB 28.347
Singapore 28.917
Russia 29.367

 

Add on these numbers UBS is always publishing before the race weekend the gap you need to stay ahead ("pit stop window"), that fits probably better to your question. Isnt much different though (with some exceptions)

 

Japan 22

Austria 22

Hungary 22

Belgium 22

Brazil 22 (2014)

Australia 23

China 23

Spain 23

Malaysia 24

Bahrain 24

Canada 24

Singapore 24

Monza 24

USA 25

Abu Dhabi 25 (2014)

Monaco 26

GB 28

Russia 29

Edited by Marklar, 11 November 2015 - 15:16.

[ed24f1]

The proposed pit entry would make Eau Rouge seem tame in terms of steepness!

 

Edited by ed24f1, 11 November 2015 - 15:00.

[Jon83]

The pit stop time loss is the same for everyone.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

What an utterly bizarre suggestion. How would you propose they get into the pits? Turn sharp left at turn 2 or something, when overtaking battles may still be going on? You're also basically suggesting cutting out half the track. With all due respect, it's complete lunacy to suggest it.

[Tapz63]

The pit stop time loss is the same for everyone.

Yes, but it would affect the racing strategies. I used to play F1 on the xbox and can tell you that while racing at Canada on the game you get a very short pitstop due to going across the pit start line at 200+mph, it was the opposite at Silverstone where it slows you down automatically very early for the pit lane (I'm not sure if it was a mistake or it really does start that early).

Either way because of that the two GP were very different with regards to strategy. In Canada a pit stop was a significant loss to the lead but not unattainable. In Silverstone an extra pitstop pretty much just ends your race.

I like variety so do not think all pit lanes should be shortened, but I would like to see a few more pit lanes where the loss of time was not so great, or even shorter than any current ones. But that could lead to problems for other series running on the track possibly

Edited by Tapz63, 11 November 2015 - 16:39.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Zero votes in favour... It seems, i need to explain it in more detail. The pit entry would be the same as today at turn 15, it's only the exit that changes to gain some time. The main motivation behind was to increase the race pace, even with the current Pirelli tyres.

 

In general, the total race time is the sum of  #pitstops * time_loss_per_pitstop + average_laptime(stint_length) * #laps

 

Here are some numbers i made up, it shows that with less pit stop time loss the number of pit stops increases.

 

[PlatenGlass]

Fastest pit stop times in 2015 by circuit

Abu Dhabi 21.546 (2014)
Hungary 21.574
Australia 21.612
Austria 21.685
Spain 21.762
Mexico 22.156
China 22.235
Belgium 22.403
Japan 22.584
Brazil 22.620 (2014)
Canada 23.321
Italy 23.884
Malaysia 23.996
USA 24.088
Monaco 24.181
Bahrain 24.310
GB 28.347
Singapore 28.917
Russia 29.367
 
Add on these numbers UBS is always publishing before the race weekend the gap you need to stay ahead ("pit stop window"), that fits probably better to your question. Isnt much different though (with some exceptions)
 
Japan 22
Austria 22
Hungary 22
Belgium 22
Brazil 22 (2014)
Australia 23
China 23
Spain 23
Malaysia 24
Bahrain 24
Canada 24
Singapore 24
Monza 24
USA 25
Abu Dhabi 25 (2014)
Monaco 26
GB 28
Russia 29

Are those fastest times time lost rather than time spent in the pitlane? Because obviously spending 25 seconds in the pitlane isn't a loss of 25 seconds as you've covered the length of the pit straight.

[KingTiger]

I have thought about the idea. I don't think they need crazy gimmicks like that, but they should increase the pit limit, to decrease the time loss due to pitstops. 80 is too slow for multiple stops to be effective, yet is still fast enough to cause major damage in a collision with the pit crew.

[Spillage]

I've no opinion, to be honest. The pitlane length is the same for everyone; how long it is is immaterial.

[Marklar]

I get your point, just in this case I'm pretty sure that pitting every lap will give you a advantage if you skip the half circuit as on your example.

 

Lets say you are doing that

 

 

Than you might achieve that what you want (just 10 s of time loss at the pit stop).

 

Personally I dont like that anyway. Im generally not in favour of pit stops. However this might be a approach for circuits like Silverstone or Sotschi where an additional pitstop is basically killing your race.

[Marklar]

Are those fastest times time lost rather than time spent in the pitlane? Because obviously spending 25 seconds in the pitlane isn't a loss of 25 seconds as you've covered the length of the pit straight.

The first numbers are time spent in the pitlane. The second numbers are the real time loss according to ubs.

[fridge46]

Here are some numbers i made up, it shows that with less pit stop time loss the number of pit stops increases.

 

 

[Tapz63]

@Theforcemaybewithyou

"Zero votes in favour... It seems, i need to explain it in more detail. The pit entry would be the same as today at turn 15, it's only the exit that changes to gain some time".


If you have cars coming out into the middle of turn two would cause some problems I think, they would have to hug the outside of turn two without crossing a pit entry line and then be severely comprimised into turn three whilst on the racing line, and these are pretty fast corners so closing speed would be pretty rapid. And they are not speed limited soon after that point in the pit lane so even without that it would still be a pretty negligible change in times in my estimation.

Edited by Tapz63, 11 November 2015 - 17:53.

[plumtree]

This particular suggestion is extreme but I was also thinking the reduced pit lane speed limit in the recent years may have contributed to teams choosing a tad more conservative strategies. Then again the last part is just my hunch and it'd be hard to prove considering the big regulation changes and ever changing Pirelli tyres. (Another unproven theory could be that Mercedes, the usual race leader in the last two years, prefer to play it safe and it just coincided with the limit revision.)

[BillBald]

The first numbers are time spent in the pitlane. The second numbers are the real time loss according to ubs.

 

The figures can't be right.

 

At Silverstone, the cars which don't enter the pits have to go around the Club complex. So no way would the total time loss be 28 seconds, if the time spent in the pit lane were 28.3 seconds.

 

More like 20 seconds max, without checking it.

[plumtree]

The figures can't be right.

 

At Silverstone, the cars which don't enter the pits have to go around the Club complex. So no way would the total time loss be 28 seconds, if the time spent in the pit lane were 28.3 seconds.

 

More like 20 seconds max, without checking it.

Spot on. 19-20 seconds seems to be the norm. http://www.fia.com/f...?token=lPsWuAU8

[Marklar]

Spot on. 19-20 seconds seems to be the norm. http://www.fia.com/f...?token=lPsWuAU8

Thats a wrong assumption. You have always the undercut effect which depends from each circuit. And in this race we even had changeable conditions. You need to put a few seconds on.

 

Edit: eventhought the inlap is saving time in this particular example (Silverstone), on the other side, so it is more 17-18 s + the undercut effect. So 20 s seems to fit.

 

Edit Edit: I've looked it up in the history chart. It is between 20-22 s.

Edited by Marklar, 11 November 2015 - 19:08.

[plumtree]

Thats a wrong assumption. You have always the undercut effect which depends from each circuit. And in this race we even had changeable conditions. You need to put a few seconds on.

I was looking at the first pit stop for each driver when the track was perfectly dry. Undercut effect can't be bigger than a couple of seconds. And there are drivers like Hamilton and Kvyat who took less than 18 seconds and probably gained the most from it.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

I have thought about the idea. I don't think they need crazy gimmicks like that, but they should increase the pit limit, to decrease the time loss due to pitstops. 80 is too slow for multiple stops to be effective, yet is still fast enough to cause major damage in a collision with the pit crew.

 

Interesting point. With the revised pit exit, the speed in the pits could be set to 50km/h for increased safety and then at the section marked in blue in the picture from the opening post, the limit could be set at 150km/h so that the time loss is about the same as today.

 

What i didn't consider is that during a (virtual) safety car, the field could be shuffled extremely.

[Marklar]

Interesting point. With the revised pit exit, the speed in the pits could be set to 50km/h for increased safety and then at the section marked in blue in the picture from the opening post, the limit could be set at 150km/h so that the time loss is about the same as today.

 

What i didn't consider is that during a (virtual) safety car, the field could be shuffled extremely.

Thats no problem, it is anyway already confusing.

[ardbeg]

 

 

What i didn't consider is that during a (virtual) safety car, the field could be shuffled extremely.

I think there might be a few other things you didn't consider

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

I'm really interested in those few other things, please elaborate

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

[ray b]

I want far less pit in and out lanes

 

I like the old main strait pit in/outs as used in the 50-60's

without the extra long stupid lanes

eazy simple and short

 

yes there was a bit of danger in the old ways

but racing is danger

[Lights]

Zero votes in favour... It seems, i need to explain it in more detail. The pit entry would be the same as today at turn 15, it's only the exit that changes to gain some time. The main motivation behind was to increase the race pace, even with the current Pirelli tyres.

 

Your idea is bad because having the pit exit at turn 7 means that cars wouldn't use S1 anymore, they would just take drive-throughs every lap.

[maverick69]

[RealRacing]

Is F1 really that bad this year? Nuke this thread!

Edited by RealRacing, 12 November 2015 - 16:58.

[johnmhinds]

Didn't Senna get the lap record at Donington Park in 93 by driving through the pit lane without stopping , because doing so cut out a section of the track.

Edited by johnmhinds, 12 November 2015 - 17:16.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Your idea is bad because having the pit exit at turn 7 means that cars wouldn't use S1 anymore, they would just take drive-throughs every lap.

 

No, you haven't understood what i try to achieve with this new pit exit.

 

Current situation: pit stop -> ~22s lost

 

New pit exit: pit stop -> 10s lost (without actually stopping for new tyres ~4s)

 

Drivers wouldn't just drive through the pit lane every lap, because of what i wrote in the open post.

"With the new layout it could be reduced to 10 seconds or even less, it depends on how fast the cars are allowed to go there."

 

This means that also at the blue line, there would be a speed limit, just as low as what is needed to achieve the reduced time loss of 10s.

[johnmhinds]

I don't think retro fitting all the old tracks will work for obvious logistical reasons, but it might be nice to try the idea at a new venue.

[rpn453]

It doesn't seem like a good idea to re-enter at the outside of a corner.

[Rob]

What do you think about it? Good, bad, ugly, artificial...

 

Expensive. Not everything is F1 and not all racing has pit stops.

[Coops3]

No, you haven't understood what i try to achieve with this new pit exit.

 

Current situation: pit stop -> ~22s lost

 

New pit exit: pit stop -> 10s lost (without actually stopping for new tyres ~4s)

 

Drivers wouldn't just drive through the pit lane every lap, because of what i wrote in the open post.

"With the new layout it could be reduced to 10 seconds or even less, it depends on how fast the cars are allowed to go there."

 

This means that also at the blue line, there would be a speed limit, just as low as what is needed to achieve the reduced time loss of 10s.

What if there are yellow flags in S1?

[Kristian]

Short pitlanes do give races with more stops and therefore more strategic variation; remember Schumacher winning France 2004 on a 4-stop strategy? That was brilliant. 

 

This picture makes the idea seem slightly insane, but its worth considering. However, on some circuits it would be impractical. 

 

It would be interesting to see what might happen in a race where a pitstop does only give a 3-5s deficit by doing a bit of a shortcut. On only one or two circuits, it could provide some interest. 

[maximilian]

Quite an interesting, outside-the-box idea (no pun intended, or is there?)

 

Probably would be impossible to implement on some tracks, though?

[ardbeg]

The only reason why pit stops are a strategical dilemma is because they take time. This suggestion could reduce this dilemma abut there is a solution that is much cheaper and it would eliminate the dilemma all together. That solution was tested 2005.

For those who voted yes - have you seen how it looks in the area behind the pits on race day? Hint: It's not empty.

[redreni]

You would need to reposition the pit exit line (i.e. the end of the speed limit) carefully otherwise making a pitstop would be quicker than not making one. I'm not sure if this may cause problems with timing and scoring as the pit exit line is usually in sector one, but I'm sure the problems wouldn't be insurmountable. I do think requiring a circuit that already has a perfectly functional and safe pit exit road, to build another one just because F1 would like to be able to adjust pit lane time loss, is probably a bit much. It wouldn't be cheap.

 

And I'm not sure I agree that there's a problem that needs fixing here. I don't think we've seen that many races that are easily 1-stop for everybody. Also, people are deterred from making a lot of pitstops as much by the limited tyre allocations as by pit stop time loss. If you reduce pit stop time loss to encourage more stops, teams will need to be more even more aggressive in limiting their running in FP, to ensure they've got enough good quality sets of option tyres for the race.

 

However, if F1 were to follow my suggestion for dealing with the (very real) problem of unsafe releases and loose wheels (i.e. require all pit crew and equipment to remain on the garage-side of the white line until the car has stopped, and to retreat behind said white line before the car can be released), this may cause pit stop time loss to become excessive, such that this sort of thing may help. But, as it wouldn't work at every track, it's not a silver bullet for that, either.

[RedBaron]

I don't know if I like this idea, but I don't hate it.

 

But it wouldn't work on all circuits, so it's not really possible. You can't have one race dramatically different to the others regarding free pitstops.

[Bloggsworth]

No you don't, you have explained a serious lack of the ability to think, that's quite enough for one evening.

[benn5325]

I'm all for it. And I want to race at the first race this is at. I'll slap on a set of super hards and do no stops. Then at the end of the race I'll argue the no one else completed the race distance and I end up with my very first F1 win

 

On a serious note. I thought about it and my thoughts are "Stupid idea"

[f1RacingForever]

In this scenario a driver could pit, and still come out ahead of the driver that was just behind him prior. Lol. Not sure how to feel about this. Giving it more thought , I don't think it would change anything. Why would interlagos pay for what would be a huge revision. It doesn't make sense economically

Edited by f1RacingForever, 14 November 2015 - 03:09.