44 replies to this topic

[maximilian]

Just seeing the article about Alexander Rossi turning down an opportunity to drive IndyCar to "keep the F1 dream alive" - ok, so he managed to race 5 rounds in an extreme backmarker team.  Assuming he might NOT get another ride in F1 in 2016 (and ignoring the fact that he may yet go to IndyCar anyways), it brought to mind a couple of other cases of drivers passing up an IndyCar opportunity in order to desperately hang on to that illusive F1 glory.  In other words, they might have had prosperous careers in the US, but instead decided to pass on that, only to fail F1 instead, and then basically disappear from open-wheel competition.

 

One that immediately comes to mind is Christian Klien, whom Red Bull wanted to slot into an IndyCar ride.  The other would be Kevin Magnussen, who could apparently have raced in IndyCar all this past season, but passed on that in order to sub for Alonso in the first 2015 F1 race (still not quite sure why he couldn't have done BOTH) - again granted, Magnussen may yet do IndyCar - although now it looks more like he'll end up where most "failed" open-wheel racers go: WEC.

 

Who else can you guys think of that followed a similar path?

[Kalmake]

Neither of those guys have raced on ovals. WEC is a better career move for them.

 

Kenny Bräck refused a backmarker drive in F1 and ended up in Indy instead. Keke Rosberg walked out of his management team after that.

[Risil]

A WEC drive with Porsche is a better career option that almost any Indycar drive (the exceptions probably being a Penske seat or one of the Ganassi A-team). So I think things are working for Magnussen.

 

When did Klien get his Indycar opportunity? Because either Champ Car or IRL in 2006-07 probably wasn't a good career move by anyone's standards.

[ensign14]

It's a bit different now because the chances of F1 ever picking up a driver from Indycar again are slim to none.  And slim's just left town.

 

E.g. Rick Mears may have been a World Champion had he gone to F1 rather than stay in Indycar.  Was that a bad move?  For global recognition, yes, but nobody has won Indy more times than him. 

 

And Will Stevens may have a James Jakes Indycar in him somewhere - but just by driving in Grands Prix he will get autograph requests for the next half-century.  Whereas I doubt Arnd Meier would be recognized at a family reunion.

[plutoman]

A couple of Italians come to mind - Fabrizio Barbazza and Andrea Montermini. Both impressed briefly in Indycars before coming back to Europe for brief careers as F1 backmarkers.

[Peat]

There's only a slim chance of a 'prosperous' career stateside aswell. Very few of the drivers are salaried, and the ones that are are not earning the megabucks you may think they are.  

Most of the guys are hand-to-mouthing it (sort of) and have to work extremely hard to keep the money trickling in. Hence why each car changes colour about a billion times per season. For each change of colour/new set of stickers, that is another set of schmoozing and endless phonecalls/appearances. 

Same goes for WEC. There's very few straight-forward paid drives. And bearing in mind that 18 of the 24 LMP1 seats are funded by VAG, that looks precarious too. 

[maximilian]

A WEC drive with Porsche is a better career option that almost any Indycar drive (the exceptions probably being a Penske seat or one of the Ganassi A-team). So I think things are working for Magnussen.

 

When did Klien get his Indycar opportunity? Because either Champ Car or IRL in 2006-07 probably wasn't a good career move by anyone's standards.

 

Don't remember exactly, but it was likely after Klien's last season with Red Bull in F1.  IIRC, Robert Doornbos instead took the place intended for Klien, and did well for himself in CART (finishing 3rd for the season), although indeed it wasn't the best of times to go open-wheel racing in the US - at least not in CART.   Still better than nothing, though?

[Prost1997T]

There's only a slim chance of a 'prosperous' career stateside aswell. Very few of the drivers are salaried, and the ones that are are not earning the megabucks you may think they are.  

Most of the guys are hand-to-mouthing it (sort of) and have to work extremely hard to keep the money trickling in. Hence why each car changes colour about a billion times per season. For each change of colour/new set of stickers, that is another set of schmoozing and endless phonecalls/appearances. 

Same goes for WEC. There's very few straight-forward paid drives. And bearing in mind that 18 of the 24 LMP1 seats are funded by VAG, that looks precarious too. 

 

I could apply the same sweeping generalisations to F1 though. Few of the seats pay the $20 million~ that the likes of Alonso and Vettel get.

[Peat]

Well yeah, but i'm just trying to dispel the myth that choosing 'Plan B' and heading to the states/WEC guarantees you a meal-ticket. 

Edited by Peat, 18 November 2015 - 16:51.

[Imperial]

The recent death of Justin Wilson actually revealed a lot about how little a driver even at his level, a race winner, earned.

[Myrvold]

Don't remember exactly, but it was likely after Klien's last season with Red Bull in F1.  IIRC, Robert Doornbos instead took the place intended for Klien, and did well for himself in CART (finishing 3rd for the season), although indeed it wasn't the best of times to go open-wheel racing in the US - at least not in CART.   Still better than nothing, though?

 

I'll argue that Klien have had a better Post Red Bull F1 - career than Doornbos anyway.

And that got me thinking, was that some sort of deal between Stoddard and Red Bull? If it was a Red Bull driver in a "Minardi"?

 

The recent death of Justin Wilson actually revealed a lot about how little a driver even at his level, a race winner, earned.

That's also not the best comparison though, as Wilson had to pay off investors that invested in his career as well. He couldn't keep his earnings like "normal" drivers ;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

I assume that was the Neel Jani car




Whereas Doornbos was racking up a debt with Muermanns, apparently...

[Afterburner]

I assume that was the Neel Jani car




Whereas Doornbos was racking up a debt with Muermanns, apparently...

Circuit City. Talk about being able to date a picture.

[stewie]

Personally I think drivers blind sighted drive to always head to F1 when you know it'll be a backmarker team, over other good drives in good series is bonkers. Better to be top of the pile, than the bottom of it!

[Risil]

Just seeing the article about Alexander Rossi turning down an opportunity to drive IndyCar to "keep the F1 dream alive"

 

Autosport: Rossi nearly took Coyne IndyCar deal

 

I don't know about you, but I was definitely reminded about that scene in The Simpsons when Homer warns Smithers about taking the Barney-guarding job, which so many of us have contemplated in our darkest hours.

[Spillage]

Timo Glock did a pretty good job in Champ Car in 2005. He did a pretty good job in F1 as well, but I do wonder how far he could have gone if he'd stayed in the US.

[HeadFirst]

Don't remember exactly, but it was likely after Klien's last season with Red Bull in F1.  IIRC, Robert Doornbos instead took the place intended for Klien, and did well for himself in CART (finishing 3rd for the season), although indeed it wasn't the best of times to go open-wheel racing in the US - at least not in CART.   Still better than nothing, though?

 

ChampCar I believe, not CART. If so, a big difference.

[Volcano70]

Glock could've won the 2005 Montreal event.

 Giorgio Pantonao did nothing of note in Indycar, just subbing here and there.

Rubens was so-so, Sato has done well.

Another person who tested an F1 Car- Bjorn Wirdheim (he was the one who thought he won in Monaco but didn't cross the line)

He drove 11 out of the 13 Champ Car races in 2005, doing nothing I can remember.

[sjakie]

Threads like this always make me thinking about that F1 test session at Estoril, the week after the GP: Footwork testing Jos Verstappen and Gil de Ferran: Verstappen sets blistering pace, leaves everybody in awe, giving de Ferran only the chance to disappoint.

Verstappen is on his way to a mediocre career in F1 where he has a couple of moments of fame, but nothing more than that. De Ferran heads stateside, never looks back and has a very good career in CART/Champcar/Indycar: twice champion, Indy 500 win. Makes you wonder who had the better career....

[maximilian]

Thank you for these contributions.  Yes, I think Glock is another great example!   As for Justin Wilson... wasn't most of his debt created while he was trying to pay for his F1 career (which in hindsight amounted to not much other than that)?

 

De Ferran another interesting case... although one might wonder how far he MAY have gone in F1.  But yeah... probably he did much better for himself going to the US.

[Risil]

As for Wilson, no it wasn't just that. Look who he drove for. Conquest, RuSport, Dale Coyne, Dreyer and Reinbold in America. One year with a Newman-Haas team which was pretty close to its last legs and certainly nothing like the team that was disbursing eight-figure salaries in the 1990s. 5 races with Jaguar, who dumped him because he didn't bring enough money.

 

No significant results at the Indy 500 (best finish of 5th in 8 starts) or Le Mans. No factory drive in sports cars.

 

Where do you expect him to have picked up the money? From wallets lying left open in the Penske motorhome?

[Clatter]

Personally I think drivers blind sighted drive to always head to F1 when you know it'll be a backmarker team, over other good drives in good series is bonkers. Better to be top of the pile, than the bottom of it!

Not all drivers have the luxury of reaching F1 and starting in a top team. There are plenty of WC's that started in a back marker team and showed enough talent to work their way up the grid.

[V8 Fireworks]

I assume that was the Neel Jani car




Whereas Doornbos was racking up a debt with Muermanns, apparently...

 

       

[teejay]

Would you rather be a back marker in F1 or competitive in Indycar?

[Kalmake]

Back marker in F1 because of the chance of moving up the grid later on. Also less risk of injury and death.

[maximilian]

Would you rather be a back marker in F1 or competitive in Indycar?

 

THAT is exactly the question here!

 

Back marker in F1 because of the chance of moving up the grid later on. Also less risk of injury and death.

 

But can you?  Looking at the current grid (and CURRENT backmarkers notwithstanding), it appears that Alonso is the only guy who was once a backmarker, or at least driving for a backmarker team - and not only is he exceptional, but it's also been a LOOOOOONG time.  Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber...

 

Also a few who went from IndyCar to F1 to ruin their stronly going IndyCar careers... da Matta, Bourdais, de Silvestro, Zanardi, and yes, Glock.  Michael Andretti also didn't do himself any favors career-wise.

Edited by maximilian, 20 November 2015 - 11:34.

[kraduk]

"Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber..."

 

 

Vettel, Kimi, Schumacher, 

Edited by kraduk, 20 November 2015 - 11:48.

[kraduk]

also who knows where Jules Bianchi would have ended up, but Ferrari this year looked a good bet

[Spillage]

I think it depends what stage of my career I was at. If I was a young hotshoot I'd rather be a backmarker in F1 because the potential is that much greater. If I were thirty I'd much rather be a frontrunner in Indycar.

The question is, how do you quantify success? I think I'd rather be a top Indycar driver than a perennial F1 midfielder, but the quality of driver in F1 strikes me as a good deal better than what we see in Indycar. Which do you have to be better to achieve?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber..."
 
 
Vettel, Kimi, Schumacher,

Vettel was already in the Red Bull system, Schumacher started out in a reasonably competitive car(interesting to think what would have happened had the Jordan not been as good/impressive that year). Yeah Kimi made his own way, but that was one of the best Saubers they ever made(ignoring the factory BMW years).
 

also who knows where Jules Bianchi would have ended up, but Ferrari this year looked a good bet

He was already 'with' Ferrari, he was just farmed out. Likewise Alonso already had a Benetton/Briatore deal when he went to Minardi.

In some ways Webber was one of the few guys to genuinely work his way up.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 20 November 2015 - 14:00.

[Peat]

"Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber..."

 

 

Vettel, Kimi, Schumacher, 

 

Those guys were only ever going there as stepping stones. Thier future was already assured, more or less. 

Vettel -  He was the golden boy as early as FBMW. BMW & RB were both fighting to put him in their cars. Toro Rosso was just the apprenticeship.
Bianchi - He was a Ferrari driver contracted out to Manor to get his wings. 
Schumacher - had already been in Mercedes works programme and was hot property. His 1 race (well, half a lap) with Jordan was a good showcase. 

Kimi - came from nowhere but Sauber was a solid midfield team. A very good bet for a debut, a solid car but with no expectations.
Webber - He bet the house on the Minardi drive, and won. So he does belong in that list. 

Your Rossi's, Stevens, Palmers etc - Nobody wants them. They are all a bit 'meh'. But their cash is gratefully received. 
 

[maximilian]

Yeah, neither Vettel, nor Schumacher or Kimi strike me as "backmarker" team drivers.   Heck, Schumacher qualified 7th in his first GP, and Vettel qualified 11th in the same situation.  Even Kimi managed 13th

[Nemo1965]

"Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber..."

 

 

Vettel, Kimi, Schumacher, 

 

Which hopeless backmarker team did Kimi and Schumacher drive for? High midfield cars, both. (Sauber, Jordan).

[Risil]

You need good management that knows about putting drivers in top teams. That seems to be the constant in modern backmarkers-to-frontrunners stories.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

There's only a slim chance of a 'prosperous' career stateside aswell. Very few of the drivers are salaried, and the ones that are are not earning the megabucks you may think they are.  

Most of the guys are hand-to-mouthing it (sort of) and have to work extremely hard to keep the money trickling in. Hence why each car changes colour about a billion times per season. For each change of colour/new set of stickers, that is another set of schmoozing and endless phonecalls/appearances. 

Same goes for WEC. There's very few straight-forward paid drives. And bearing in mind that 18 of the 24 LMP1 seats are funded by VAG, that looks precarious too. 

Most professional racing drivers are aware that this is a business, and approach it as a profession where selling yourself does involve presentations, travel, meetings, and everything involved in making business deals. Only an incredibly small percentage of professionals make it to the top tier, 99% of the rest have to make a living from it. If they know what they are doing, it is just one step in their life path.

 

Looking at it from a different direction, when you begin to make up a list of ex-professional drivers who went on to become successful businessmen within the racing community, all of a sudden things get interesting. Bernie Ecclestone, Enzo Ferrari, Max Mosley, Roger Penske, Rick Hendrick.

 

Drivers have to go where there are jobs (rides).

 

[August]

If you get into F1, it's probably better stay there as long as you just have desire to be there. As a former F1 driver, you can still get good seats once you don't anymore get an F1 seat, think about guys like Sato, Davidson, Buemi, B. Senna, Fisichella, Bruni. And building your career with F1 as the aim is probably the smartest option (as long as you have the financing), it doesn't really close any doors. Maybe the only reason to stop aiming for an F1 seat would be a works LMP1 seat, it's an opportunity one must not let pass, even if it closed the F1 door.

 

Though, if you're successful and have a steady seat in IndyCar or WEC, then it makes no sense to experiment F1 unless you really get a good seat there, which happens very rarely. There's a big chance you're out of F1 in few years with no success and there's no guarantee you get a good seat again in your old series.

 

But what I wonder is what's really the better series to be in, IndyCar or WEC? Without thinking about your recognition, I guess it's probably better to be a works driver in WEC, even in GT classes, than to be an IndyCar driver with the owner struggling to afford to keep you in his car. But if you're really a great driver, I'd say it's better to be in IndyCar where it's the driver and not the team that gets the recognition, and which is mainstream at least four hours in one day every year. At least in terms of recognition. Fässler, Lotterer, and Tréluyer are such successful sports car drivers, still I guess more people will remember Scott Dixon or Helio Castroneves in ten years from now, even though both are about equally as successful in their disciplines.

Edited by August, 20 November 2015 - 22:56.

[Dolph]

F1 vs IndyCar is a tough to call.

 

F1 must be the toughest to succeed.

 

Indycar is very though as well - you have to be really good at ovals as well as road courses to get into a Penske/Ganassi/Andretti ride or bring you very own personal sponsor (a la Kimball). I wouldn't want to do IndyCar myself due to the high death rate of high speed ovals.

 

To me the best option for a driver seeking a professional career would be to find an employer like Audi/Porsche/BMW. If you are good then they find a seat for you in DTM / GT endurance racing / LMP1 / BTCC and they switch you around when need be. I would assume those seats are reasonably paid. And if you do really good you might even get to have a go at winning Le Mans.

[HeadFirst]

Thank you for these contributions.  Yes, I think Glock is another great example!   As for Justin Wilson... wasn't most of his debt created while he was trying to pay for his F1 career (which in hindsight amounted to not much other than that)?

 

De Ferran another interesting case... although one might wonder how far he MAY have gone in F1.  But yeah... probably he did much better for himself going to the US.

 

Also led to a pretty significant post-racing career with Honda, did it not?

[Wes350]

Back marker in F1 because of the chance of moving up the grid later on. Also less risk of injury and death.

 

 

Indycar's death rate over Formula 1 is entirely due to the oval racing.

 

Racing ovals in formula cars is a significant added risk.

 

I'm surprised the series is still attracting drivers like it is, but with the inertia of tradition Indycars still has behind it, I really shouldn't be.

 

 

 

THAT is exactly the question here!

 

 

But can you?  Looking at the current grid (and CURRENT backmarkers notwithstanding), it appears that Alonso is the only guy who was once a backmarker, or at least driving for a backmarker team - and not only is he exceptional, but it's also been a LOOOOOONG time.  Which other guys in recent history have gone the route from driving for a more or less hopeless backmarker team to success and riches in F1?  Arguably Mark Webber...

 

Also a few who went from IndyCar to F1 to ruin their stronly going IndyCar careers... da Matta, Bourdais, de Silvestro, Zanardi, and yes, Glock.  Michael Andretti also didn't do himself any favors career-wise.

 

 

I think that it still is possible in F1 to climb the ranks from a back-marker team...

 

But you would have to absolutely destroy your teammate(s).

 

Like on a  Alonso - Raikkonen / Vettel - Raikkonen level. (sorry Kimi...)

 

A driver would have to really show that they are a wasted talent.

 

 

.

[RA2]

European drivers playboy lifestyle does not sit will in US

[BRG]

European drivers playboy lifestyle does not sit will in US

You do know that Talladega Nights wasn't a documentary?

[Nathan]

Playboy lifestyles don't fit well in America? The culture embraces celebrities and extravagance whole heatedly.  Besides Hamilton, which current F1 drivers fit the playboy mold?  How many NASCAR drivers have private jets and penthouses in NYC?  I suspect more NASCAR drivers earn $10mln+/yr.

Edited by Nathan, 21 November 2015 - 20:29.

[maximilian]

 I guess more people will remember Scott Dixon or Helio Castroneves in ten years from now, even though both are about equally as successful in their disciplines.

 

I think so too... especially if they win the Indy 500.  Even though the LeMans 24Hrs is a hugely popular race, I still feel that winning the Indy 500 ranks higher in terms of publicity.  I doubt many people would remember who was WEC Champion... but not many might remember who was IndyCar Champion, either.

 

If IndyCar was what it COULD be, this would be an entirely different story.  I still feel that there is such HUGE untapped potential in that series.

[Wes350]

...

 

If IndyCar was what it COULD be, this would be an entirely different story.  I still feel that there is such HUGE untapped potential in that series.

 

 

Indycars massive own goal in the 90's (with the split) did incalculable harm.

 

It needs a crazy benefactor $$$$$$ willing to invest for the sheer love of the sport to get it back to where it should be - A viable alternative to NASCAR.

[whitewaterMkII]

When you get down to pure dollars as a race driver, I'd imagine that NASCAR has far more big pay drives than any other race series, for the size of the field, there are probably more paid drives than both IndyCar and F1 combined.