36 replies to this topic

[Silverstone96]

So WEC has conveniently been used as a tool to hit F1 round the head with a lot this season but my question is it really that entertaining itself?

6hrs is a long time to sit and watch for anyone although this is the DNA of its formula, but the last few races have been no less turgid than recent Grand Prix'.

Watching today made me wonder if there is too much going on, too many classes. Would the WEC benefit from being just for LMP1 & LMP2?

Personally I would like to see the races reduced to 4 hours with just 2 drivers per car but this unlikely I know.

It's a shame too that WEC races at a lot of the same tilke dromes that F1 do

[Victor_RO]

No. The multiclass racing and combination with the GT classes has been part of sportscar racing for decades and decades and will remain so for years to come. And the key word is "endurance". Don't cut the races to less distance, I'd rather add a 12h race to the championship.

[Nathan]

Since Le Mans turned into a 24 hour sprint, is there really endurance racing anymore besides the Dakar?

 

I'm a bit confused how there can be too much to follow during a 6 hour race though

Edited by Nathan, 21 November 2015 - 18:09.

[chunder27]

They will race at the places that pay the most, like any series, and also the ones that guarantee them the viewers away from any other series at tmies suited to the European viewer as that is their fan base. Arabas will buy anything to have events on their soil, motocross, V8 Supercars, F1, WEC, MotoGP. They are the biggest paypacket for any series. Sadly their tracks are garbage Drone domes.

 

WEC is an up and down series, it peaks and troughs like no other.  Some races are incredible, though not my cup of tea really, and some are about as dull as any motorsport you can bear.

 

Any endurance racing is really only for the drivers, not the fans, I have NEVER understood the appeal of this kind of racing as a live event or as a fan, ther than the spectacle fo watching the cars, and certainly that cannot sustain me for 2 hours, let alone 6.

 

It is an acquired taste.  And has a long, long way to go before it rivals F1 in terms of universal appeal.

 

The average Joe, will NEVER be able to watch an endurance race, no matter if Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen or Webber were racing.

[Nonesuch]

Since Le Mans turned into a 24 hour sprint, is there really endurance racing anymore besides the Dakar?

 

Not infrequently the races are decided by technical problems rather than on-track battles, so yes, it's definitely still endurance.

 

To put it differently, it is very difficult for LMP1 cars specifically to run even six hour races at their maximum performance.

 

Customer cars in other categories are obviously designed with a preference for reliability because they aren't raced by global manufacturers willing to spend dozens of millions a year.

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 November 2015 - 18:39.

[Red17]

Since Le Mans turned into a 24 hour sprint, is there really endurance racing anymore besides the Dakar?

 

I'm a bit confused how there can be too much to follow during a 6 hour race though

 

I think it was Ickx who said that Lemans had turned into a sprintrace in the 70's after he won.

 

But that's the point, even with milions of dollars they still push the cars to the limit and guess what... they still break.

 

It doesn't matter if they are lapping the whole 24 hours within 1 second of the lap record, the race is still decided on technicall failures, driver mess ups or not being able to make longer stints as well as being able to carry speed over the whole race, it's not as easy as it looks like.

 

As for the 6 hour format... it's more TV friendly and teams keep complaining about budgets.

[FLB]

About the length of the races: how many people watch football pre-game shows that seemingly last all day? Or, in the US, four or five-hour NASCAR broadcasts?

 

To me, that has always seemed a bit of a non-issue.

[zztopless1]

They need more competitive, non-privateer, LMP1 teams.  Three is no where near enough.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Watching today made me wonder if there is too much going on, too many classes. Would the WEC benefit from being just for LMP1 & LMP2?

 

 

I think you need LMP1 and GT and that's it. LMP2/3/etc is for wannabes. 

[August]

So WEC has conveniently been used as a tool to hit F1 round the head with a lot this season but my question is it really that entertaining itself?

6hrs is a long time to sit and watch for anyone although this is the DNA of its formula, but the last few races have been no less turgid than recent Grand Prix'.

Watching today made me wonder if there is too much going on, too many classes. Would the WEC benefit from being just for LMP1 & LMP2?

Personally I would like to see the races reduced to 4 hours with just 2 drivers per car but this unlikely I know.

It's a shame too that WEC races at a lot of the same tilke dromes that F1 do

 

Today's race probably had more tension than the entire 2015 F1 season. And the great thing in sports car racing is that even if the lead class had a dull race, some of the lower classes may have brilliant racing. Of course, it takes some time to learn all the classes, especially the Pro-Am classes may feel strange when suddenly a lead car is very slow and you don't know it's the Am driver driving it.

 

 

I've seen people suggesting on internet forums about WEC going to LMP1 and LMP2 only, yet a great argument for the current situation was that you have two OEM classes, and I doubt dropping GTE would bring all of Ferrari, Aston, and GM to LMP1, maybe none.

 

6h, let alone 24h, is probably a tough format to get into. I like IMSA's variety of race formats, from 24, 12, or 10 hours, to 6 hours or 2h40min, or 1h40min on street courses. But WEC is so much about Le Mans, so maybe it's better to keep it as an endurance championship. Though I have to say I'd like the LMP1 teams to have a permanent crew of only two drivers, just like the GTE-Pro teams have. It would be funny to see drivers from other series to complete the LMP1 lineups for Le Mans, just like you have in IMSA for Daytona, Sebring, and Petit. Though I guess the LMP1 teams prefer it this way instead of hiring drivers to do Le Mans as one-off.

 

And yeah, it's really a shame WEC goes to Tilkedromes when there'd be so many great classic venues, like Sebring that was dropped from WEC after the inaugural season.

 

But I can't really complain so much about the WEC. And maybe it's better it doesn't become too mainstream. That would only lead to gimmicks like DRS, and probably FIA would screw it to protect F1 as the mainstream series.

[KingTiger]

Yes, WEC is very dull as a whole. It is the worst attempt at a sportscar championship that I've followed. The standardization is terrible, but that's what you get when FIA get involved. There is no reason to have every race bar LM at 6 hr.

The LMP2 and GT AM classes are a total waste of space in my opinion, but I guess it makes them feel good to beef up the grid with filler. 

[Marklar]

Yes, WEC is very dull as a whole. It is the worst attempt at a sportscar championship that I've followed. The standardization is terrible, but that's what you get when FIA get involved. There is no reason to have every race bar LM at 6 hr.

The LMP2 and GT AM classes are a total waste of space in my opinion, but I guess it makes them feel good to beef up the grid with filler.

 

Which standardization?

 

And maybe it's better it doesn't become too mainstream. That would only lead to gimmicks like DRS, and probably FIA would screw it to protect F1 as the mainstream series.

They capped the maximum power to 1000 hp, if I'm not wrong? And then you also have the clash of Le Mans with Baku, that are the attemps you fear to screw them in order to "protect" F1...

[Ali_G]

I think you need LMP1 and GT and that's it. LMP2/3/etc is for wannabes.

LeMans and the World Sportscar Championship ran for years without any GT cars.

Completely agree though. Don't understand the point of LMP2. Is it really that much cheaper than running an LMP1 car?

[TennisUK]

Yes

[Amphicar]

I think you need LMP1 and GT and that's it. LMP2/3/etc is for wannabes. 

 

To quote The Offspring: The world needs wannabes

[JHSingo]

Completely agree though. Don't understand the point of LMP2. Is it really that much cheaper than running an LMP1 car?

 

The point is, that it allows gentleman drivers and privateer teams the chance to win their class. It also acts as a shop window for young talent. Not too many years ago, Brendon Hartley was in LMP2. Then he becomes a works Porsche driver and today is World Champion.

 

Also, even if LMP2 teams stepped up to LMP1, they wouldn't have a chance of winning while the likes of Porsche, Audi, and Toyota are around. They just don't have the money or the resources to compete, so it'd be kinda pointless. A better question to ask is why do Rebellion and ByKolles persist in LMP1, when they know that (with the manufacturers running 2-3 cars each) there's no chance of a podium, let alone a victory. To win in LMP1 these days, you need a hybrid car. And there's a very good reason why there's currently no privateer hybrid LMP1 entry. No privateer has the budget to run one.

 

Yes, there were plenty of privateer teams in the days of Group C, but those days are long gone. Nobody is going to be running a customer 919 or R18 in the foreseeable future. They're too complicated and too expensive.

 

LMP2 gives teams and drivers a chance to compete at considerably less expense in a class where they have a far greater chance of success. That's the 'point' of LMP2. Besides, if the grid was made up entirely of LMP1 and GTE Pro cars, you'd be struggling to get a grid size of more than twenty cars.

 

I agree with the OP about race distances however. My main complaints about the WEC are the to do with the race turgid nature of the race distances, and also the calendar. I'm sorry, I'm just not inspired to tune in and watch a six hour race at Shanghai, or Bahrain. But if it was Sebring or Road Atlanta, I would be a lot more interested. There's just too many bland Tilkedromes on the calendar after Le Mans.

 

Also, they're kinda stuck purely with the name of the series. There has to be an element of endurance in the World Endurance Championship. If it was the World Sportscar Championship instead, maybe we could have a variety of race distances. If they fixed that, and had races at more inspiring locations, I'd be fully on the WEC hype train!

Edited by JHSingo, 21 November 2015 - 22:21.

[Nathan]

IMO...

 

LMP1 should be for the manufactures building cars to an relatively open set of rules, utilizing innovative technology, raced by top-level professionals.

 

LMP2 should be for private teams to race an affordable customer/spec car built by a manufacture not competing with a 'works' team, raced by up and comers, pros not good enough for LMP1, and quality amateurs with money to burn racing.

 

LMP3/4/5/6/ is for the birds.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think you just accept LMP1 is a prototype playpen, and run it to keep them happy. Then have GT Pro and GT Am. 

 

I don't think privateer LMP1 and LMP2 do anything other than make the grid look a little bigger. LMP2 was only ever itneresting when you had factory cars(MG, Porsche) that could challenge LMP1 because of the rules package. 

[Silverstone96]

Interesting views here, I do like WEC but I find my interest builds with Silverstone and spa, Le Mans is always an amazing centrepiece event....but after that I find myself losing interest really, same pattern every year

[Nonesuch]

I don't mind the classes as they are, but I do wonder how the FIA, and indeed Toyota, will respond to the spending war that Volkswagen has unleashed.

 

I do like WEC but I find my interest builds with Silverstone and spa, Le Mans is always an amazing centrepiece event....but after that I find myself losing interest really, same pattern every year

 

The long break after Le Mans certainly lends itself to that, and while I had a great time at the Nürburgring I did also feel my interest waning quite rapidly after the Big Race.

 

It's the same with F1; after the summer break it almost feels like a different season. The Chinese and Canadian Grand Prix'? I barely remember what happened there.

 

It didn't help the WEC that there was often a clear difference between the front runners, with Audi relying more on Porsche's stumbles rather than their own pace to keep somewhat involved in the championship.

 

My own pet peeve this year have been the FCYs. In a series where strategy plays such a crucial role, and adds flavour to the variety of cars and engines involved, it's appalling to me how often strategies have been dictated by the whims of the race director throwing out full neutralizations. I quit watching the Fuji and Bahrain race after one too many heavy-handed interferences like that, and I hope that they find a way to incorporate the Slow Zones of Le Mans fame at the other tracks, and soon.

Edited by Nonesuch, 22 November 2015 - 01:28.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

So WEC has conveniently been used as a tool to hit F1 round the head with a lot this season but my opinion is it really that entertaining itself?

 

 

Really!!

Fixed it for you.

[V8 Fireworks]

Would the WEC benefit from being just for LMP1 & LMP2?
 

 

No, of course not. GT racing is the heart and soul of it.

[V8 Fireworks]

There's just too many bland Tilkedromes on the calendar after Le Mans.

 

 

There is no race in Australia.  What the hell man?

 

• Adelaide Street Circuit - as per Race of 1000 years
• Surfers Paradise Street Circuit
• Phillip Island Raceway
• Eastern Creek

 

Excellent venues. 

 

[August]

Which standardization?

 

They capped the maximum power to 1000 hp, if I'm not wrong? And then you also have the clash of Le Mans with Baku, that are the attemps you fear to screw them in order to "protect" F1...

 

As for standardization, most WEC rounds lack character. To have the US round at COTA when there's Sebring and Petit which were the biggest LMP races after Le Mans for years just sucks. And all but Le Mans run to the same 6 hours. Like Interlagos was run to 6 hours whereas the 2007 LMS race was run to 1,000 miles under the traditional Mil Milhas Brasil name.

 

Then you have all races but Le Mans at tracks F1 uses or has recently used. Shanghai & Bahrain of them designed by Tilke, COTA built by Tilke, Nürburgring & Fuji (and Mexico next year) Tilkefied, Silverstone Tilkefied but not by Tilke, and Spa neutralized with paved runoffs. And they're neutralizing Le Mans as much as the land allows, and then they have lots of warnings of runoff abuse. That's why I should actually be happy the US round is at COTA so that they remain off from neutralizing a track like Road America.

 

As for FIA protecting F1, yeah they already did it with the Le Mans clash and 1000 hp cap. But FIA killed the WSC in the early 90s, I guess that would happen again if WEC got too big for F1.

[Peat]

^August said everything i was going to.

I like WEC. But it's far from perfect. I do struggle to keep the enthusiasm going post-Le Mans. I'd disagree with yesterday's race being 'turgid' however. I planned on plonking myself down infront of it and enjoying a good hangover-nap, but it kept me engaged throughout.

[AlexLangheck]

I don't know about a rethink - but I think a few tweeks could improve it.

 

Credit to Todt/ FiA for bring back a Sportscar World Championship - however, that's what it should have been; the WSC - The Sportscar World Championship!! Not the Endurance championship.

 

The majority of the races would be 6 hours plus - but it allows for maybe one or two 3 hour/ 500km races, plis a 10 and/ or 12 hour race. Say for example, the race after Le Mans - run it 3 weeks after over 3 hours; gets everybody back in the groove but isn't too taxing - and keeps the momentum up. I can't think of anything worse than having Le Mans, then nothing for 6 weeks/ 2 months..... simply madness.

 

As for the circuits, I understand why, but racing on the same F1 Tilkedroms isn't right. The WEC should be making itself completely different from F1; Sebring/ Road Atlanta's Petit Le Mans should both be in the WEC; sadly politics has got in the way. An Australian round would be nice - and I think an earlier start to the season is a must; mid/late April is quite late for a series to be starting - I'd like maybe 1 or 2 more races before Le Mans.

 

And personally, it still feels too much about Le Mans, plus supporting races....the 'brand' WEC needs more promotion/ exposure. The generic 6 hours of ************ doesn't help.

 

Keep the classes - multi class racing is what Sportscar racing is all about.

 

So, the WEC is doing fine - one hopes the FiA and/or Bernie keep their mitts off - though the clash with Baku isn't promising.

[chunder27]

I think they have to do something a little different.

 

There are some good ideas on here.

For me, a 6 hour race at somewhere like Spa,or Sebring or even Daytona would keep your interest. Places liek Road America, Brands Hatch, Zandvoort perhaps, proper race tracks, where you buy into the event ot just ther series.

 

A 6 hour race at Silverstone, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi (not long surely) or Ricard would not, they need to be two race format or sprints. It is like watching a drft event in a car aprk in all honesty, abou as inspiring as listening to David Croft.

 

I think also differnet length events would appeal to the marketeers, you can market each race on its merits rather than as a series.

[JHSingo]

Interesting views here, I do like WEC but I find my interest builds with Silverstone and spa, Le Mans is always an amazing centrepiece event....but after that I find myself losing interest really, same pattern every year

 

Exactly the same for me. While Silverstone and Spa are not what they once were, they're still good tracks with a real sense of history and atmosphere. Then Le Mans, which is just spectacular. After that, the majority of the tracks they race on are rather bland. They just lack atmosphere. I've said this several times before elsewhere on this forum, but I just find it a real shame that they race at COTA, rather than a Sebring, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen or wherever else. Also, it's disappointing to have Bahrain as the season ending race. It doesn't do the series good to be racing somewhere in front of mostly empty grandstands in a place where there just aren't the fans, instead of a track that has a real sportscar racing history.

 

There is no race in Australia.  What the hell man?

 

• Adelaide Street Circuit - as per Race of 1000 years
• Surfers Paradise Street Circuit
• Phillip Island Raceway
• Eastern Creek

 

Agreed, but again, they kind of limit themselves. WEC races on almost exclusively FIA Grade 1 circuits (Le Mans being the only exception to that), hence the proliferation of F1 Tilkedromes. But despite that, I'm sure it would be entirely possible to have a calendar with some more inspiring races on it...

 

Safety is important, yes, but man, is it so difficult to have a track that is safe and exciting?

[Risil]

^August said everything i was going to.

I like WEC. But it's far from perfect. I do struggle to keep the enthusiasm going post-Le Mans. I'd disagree with yesterday's race being 'turgid' however. I planned on plonking myself down infront of it and enjoying a good hangover-nap, but it kept me engaged throughout.

 

Could just be that the season was a write-off once they came to Nurburgring and the order was clearly Porsche -- Audi -- Toyota. In F1 right now it's Mercedes -- Ferrari -- everyone else, and no one likes F1 either.

 

6 Hours of Interlagos was probably the best race of 2014, and I was completely spellbound, so I don't think it's only the "Le Mans hangover" effect. Although that's obviously what the FIA and ACO would prefer, because they can fix that problem simply by moving the calendar so the season runs June-June.

[Pingguest]

I would like to see more variety in race distances, like they had in Group C. In those days, they had short sprint races as well as races lasting six and twelve hours or covering a distance of one thousand kilometres.

[August]

6 Hours of Interlagos was probably the best race of 2014, and I was completely spellbound, so I don't think it's only the "Le Mans hangover" effect. Although that's obviously what the FIA and ACO would prefer, because they can fix that problem simply by moving the calendar so the season runs June-June.

I don't think finishing the season at Le Mans would be a good idea, the season titles would be in the shadow of Le Mans win.

But they should really have a shorter break post-LM. Nürburgring will be late July next year but even that's too late. The IMSA teams have the 6h of the Glen just few weeks after LM, WEC teams should be able for the same.

And it's the three best tracks to open the season, the rest aren't so exciting, at least for me. Bahrain is almost my favorite track of the last five, yet I don't like the season finishing, or racing at all, in such a dictatorship oppressing its citizen.

[Kev00]

I like it.

Would like to see at least one more LMP1 manufacturer on the grid . Dont really understand why rebellion an bykolles are even there. Like LMP2 the way it is, some really good drivers in that field. Really like the GT racing but would like to see another manufacturer, maybe BMW.

As for the calender, the only circuit i really dont like is shanghai. Love the european rounds. Would swap fuji for suzuka and get interlagos back on the calender.

I'm happy with 4 classes and 6hr races.

[Volcano70]

This is my personal schedule

1. Adelaide (1000km) (late Feb)

2. Fuji (early March)

3. Monza (1000km) (last weekend March/First weekend April)

4. Silverstone (Late April)

5. Spa (2nd weekend May)

6. 24h Le Mans (Mid-June)

7. Brands Hatch (Early August)

8. Nurburgring Nordschleife(Late August)

9. Mil Milhas Brazil (mid September) (1000 Miles)

10. Petit Le Mans (2nd Weekend October) (10 Hours)

11. Sepang (Malaysia Merkeda Endurance) (Mid-November)

[stewie]

They need a couple more races pre Le Mans I think, interest always seems to wane after that.

[scheivlak]

I don't think finishing the season at Le Mans would be a good idea, the season titles would be in the shadow of Le Mans win.

 

Well, they are now in fact. To me, the whole season after Le Mans just feels like obligatory stuff.

 

In the real heydays (the sixties) Le Mans was near the end of the season and - because of that - quite important as a championship decider. And that felt quite natural.

[TF110]

I think making one or two races a bit longer (8, 10hrs) it will give the championship another big enduro. Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta was something like that. A season/year ending event that was 10hours.

[FPV GTHO]

There'll be a big cost blowout if too many more races come on. Think of how many km's racing there would be from 10x6hr events plus LeMans?

84hrs of racing vs 40hrs (20x2hr) for F1