Tobias Grüner @tgruener 7 Min.Vor 7 Minuten
Breaking: Mercedes complaining at FIA about Ferrari using more than the allowed 25 hours/week of windtunnel time via HaasF1. #AMuS #F1
Posted 28 November 2015 - 09:50
Tobias Grüner @tgruener 7 Min.Vor 7 Minuten
Breaking: Mercedes complaining at FIA about Ferrari using more than the allowed 25 hours/week of windtunnel time via HaasF1. #AMuS #F1
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Posted 28 November 2015 - 09:55
Didn't we all know this already and didn't the FIA already investigate this?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:01
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:08
I think this is more about the aero teams possibly not working completely independent from each other.
Ferrari possibly learning about aero concepts trialled on Haas windtunnel/cfd program?
RBR and Toro Rosso are also using the same windtunnel/cfd facilities. Would be interesting to know how these teams work.
Haas has unlimited windtunnel/cfd time.
If they will use Ferrari's 2015 aero, Ferrari will have been able to develop the 2015 car with aero work on the 2016 Haas car. Just specuating here.
Edited by Timstr11, 28 November 2015 - 10:13.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:08
I know this is not the actual quote, but this is most fitting
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:12
Tobias Grüner @tgruener 6 Min.Vor 6 Minuten
#F1 FIA asked other teams to make additional submissions on the Mercedes complaint vs. Ferrari. Decision expected sunday before race. #AMuS
Tobias Grüner @tgruener 1 Min.Vor 1 Minute
#F1 Mercedes asks FIA for rules clarification on outsourcing of design & manufacturing, sharing knowledge & windtunnel / CFD testing. #AMuS
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:16
1 minute ago Mercedes says "it is currently considering the possibility of collaborating with third parties on its testing programme"ReplyRetwee
Edited by Timstr11, 28 November 2015 - 10:17.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:20
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:26
Ferrari may have found a loophole in the regulations (again).
Would be stupid of any team not to try and exploit it.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:27
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:29
Allison has been a godsend. Us Ferrari fans have been waiting years for this sort of thing.Ferrari may have found a loophole in the regulations (again).
Would be stupid of any team not to try and exploit it.
Edited by Ferrari2183, 28 November 2015 - 10:30.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:32
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:36
According to AMuS it is not just Mercedes who are voicing doubts over this matter by the way.....
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:50
Come on mercedes, its not enough what you already got, great job ferrari, i really hope youll challenge merc, thoose whiners, next year
Edited by f1rules, 28 November 2015 - 11:08.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:53
Mercedes really have some kind of nerve after that tyre test of them.
Formula 1 just has to release the shackles so teams can can get on with it. This is not the kind of sport where restrictions through financial means is going to stop anything. There will always be loopholes.
Has nothing to do with nerve, they would be stupid not to complain. And Ferrari would be stupid not to exploit the loophole. Ultimately, a legitimate concern about collaboration with 3rd parties is raised. By all means, I applaud Ferrari for doing it, but that's not to say others are not allowed to exploit it as well or condemn it.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:05
I agree. It's just the manner in which Mercedes are doing this when you considering their secret tyre test.Has nothing to do with nerve, they would be stupid not to complain. And Ferrari would be stupid not to exploit the loophole. Ultimately, a legitimate concern about collaboration with 3rd parties is raised. By all means, I applaud Ferrari for doing it, but that's not to say others are not allowed to exploit it as well or condemn it.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:05
Good job Ferrari on interpretating the rules. Haas are at an advantage with unlimited development time, unlike the others with RRC. So why can't Ferrati technologies design the aero for Haas? "We are totally honest, guv'ner!" Go show those Mercedes who is the boss
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Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:18
Mercedes really have some kind of nerve after that tyre test of them.
Two wrongs don't make a right though... they do have a legitimate point about the aero resources... Although it's more smoke and mirrors than anything, as performance is currently dominated by PU and getting the tires to work. Aero is for a few tenths, the other stuff are seconds/lap. Adrian Newye knows this well
Edited by Alexandros, 28 November 2015 - 11:19.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:25
Aero is still a performance differentiator.Two wrongs don't make a right though... they do have a legitimate point about the aero resources... Although it's more smoke and mirrors than anything, as performance is currently dominated by PU and getting the tires to work. Aero is for a few tenths, the other stuff are seconds/lap. Adrian Newye knows this well
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:33
Edited by SenorSjon, 28 November 2015 - 11:34.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:35
Edited by Seanspeed, 28 November 2015 - 11:35.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:49
Autosport have posted an article on this.
Looks like they have tried for 6 weeks to get clarification via the proper channels, ie via Charlie, only for him to hand it back, so they have had to go public.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:54
It's a major advantage. I don't understand why teams haven't gone this route much sooner.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:55
I agree. It's just the manner in which Mercedes are doing this when you considering their secret tyre test.
FIA were right to make it public.
Edited by P123, 28 November 2015 - 11:57.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 11:55
I tried to figure out how the FIA is measuring the wind tunnel time at all. And I'm surprised they believe what the teams report
APPENDIX 8
AERODYNAMIC TESTING RESTRICTIONS
Reporting and Benchmarking
4.1 Each Team must declare to the FIA in writing the computer resource that is employed for the purpose of Restricted CFD Simulations. If the hardware is changed or upgraded then a new declaration must be submitted to the FIA within one month of the change.
4.2 Each Team must declare to the FIA in writing the wind tunnel resource that is employed for the purpose of Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing. If a different facility is to be used or if the existing facility is significantly changed or upgraded then a new declaration must be submitted to the FIA within one month of the change.
4.3 Each Team shall report to the FIA details of its Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing and Restricted CFD Simulations for the preceding Aerodynamic Testing Period within 14 days of the end of that Aerodynamic Testing Period. The data must be provided in the format specified by the FIA. This declaration shall be based on records of the solution time of each Restricted CFD Simulation to a precision of at least the nearest second and on records of the Wind On Time of each wind tunnel run performed during Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing to a precision of at least the nearest second.
4.4 In order to check on the hardware employed by the Teams and as a means of assuring common application of the restrictions set out in this Appendix, the FIA will arrange for independent benchmarking inspections of both Wind Tunnel and CFD activities to be carried out from time to time. Recommendations arising from these inspections will be incorporated into this Appendix.
Edited by nosecone, 28 November 2015 - 11:57.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:02
So Shell publishes that they increased performance by .5s per lap. Mercedes questions their fuel supplier Petronas who indicates impossible. So hmm it must be the wind tunnel?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:08
No sir. Mercedes asked for it to remain confidential but Whiting refused.Is it not Mercedes who have made it public by going to the stewards after getting no definitive response for Whiting. Let's face it, they make the rules up as they go along anyway. The manner in which Mercedes have done this seems absolutely correct and in line with what teams will do when developing parts/ systems and notifying Whiting along the way to ensure compliance (not that his word means much).
But the ire is directed in the wrong place, and the mumping here misses the point. It is potentially hugely beneficial for Ferrari next season. As a competitor you would be negligent if you didn't challenge the loopholes in place.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:11
Is it not Mercedes who have made it public by going to the stewards after getting no definitive response for Whiting. Let's face it, they make the rules up as they go along anyway. The manner in which Mercedes have done this seems absolutely correct and in line with what teams will do when developing parts/ systems and notifying Whiting along the way to ensure compliance (not that his word means much).
But the ire is directed in the wrong place, and the mumping here misses the point. It is potentially hugely beneficial for Ferrari next season. As a competitor you would be negligent if you didn't challenge the loopholes in place.
Taking this to a logical conclusion, we're going to end up seeing the big teams setting up satellite companies solely to take advantage of this loophole, spending even more than they would have if their in-house tunnel time was unlimited aren't we?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:19
It *could* be a major advantage depending on how much info is being communicated between the teams. We dont really know to what extent Ferrari are actually benefiting from this loophole. They could be being quite cautious about it in fear of having a hammer dropped on them or they could be going hog wild on it. Hard to say without being an insider.It's a major advantage. I don't understand why teams haven't gone this route much sooner.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:26
Edited by Marklar, 28 November 2015 - 12:27.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:26
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:29
That is my whole point. This only applies to new teams.Well, they couldnt gain an advantage anyway fron Williams because they are as limited as themselves. Haas isnt.
I only said we dont know to what extent any advantage they are getting is. Also never said it was just Mercedes. :/Its very naive to believe that Ferrari is sending 50 people there without aiming to gain an advantage. And its not just Mercedes who is complaining btw.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:30
What does Redbull do with Toro Rosso? Do they share any data?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:31
Of course they do. But they also use different facilities.What does Redbull do with Toro Rosso? Do they share any data?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:37
Was not applied to you alone. I noticed many "Oh they are afraid" or "they should shut up" comments. Its natural imo that they are asking for clarfication to do similar things as this certainly is a big advantage.That is my whole point. This only applies to new teams.
I only said we dont know to what extent any advantage they are getting is. Also never said it was just Mercedes. :/
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:42
Was not applied to you alone. I noticed many "Oh they are afraid" or "they should shut up" comments. Its natural imo that they are asking for clarfication to do similar things as this certainly is a big advantage.
What's changed since the FIA did their investigations and found Ferrari to be working within the regulations and Mercedes lodging a "complaint" now?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:46
maybe because Charlie is ignoring apparentely their questions now for several weeks?What's changed since the FIA did their investigations and found Ferrari to be working within the regulations and Mercedes lodging a "complaint" now?
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Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:46
Hilarious. Ferrari may have been caught doing something naughty and the first thing ferrari fans do is point to Mercedes.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:49
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:52
Yeah, like sending a billion on an engine.Toto knows how to play the political game. We desperately need to limit these ridiculous costs.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:56
Full pdf of the Mercedes document.
cdn-0.motorsport.com/static/fmf/185/Abu%20Dhabi%20F1%20stewards'%20decision.pdf
(add HTTP in front as the forum editor messes up the display when I add it.)
Edited by Timstr11, 28 November 2015 - 13:07.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:59
Hilarious. Ferrari may have been caught doing something naughty and the first thing ferrari fans do is point to Mercedes.
Funny that? Ferrari closes the gap and Mercedes feels threatened.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 13:47
Posted 28 November 2015 - 14:30
What?
This has already been investigated and responded to by the FIA. There is no difference here from other teams using external entities, such as Red Bull and McLaren having technology centres or groups separate from their race team. Those work with more than one existing team, and it's been known about for years.
Very poor form from Mercedes. Not enough to outspend your rivals by hundreds of millions on engine development alone, and 5 day tyre tests?
Posted 28 November 2015 - 15:49
What?
This has already been investigated and responded to by the FIA. There is no difference here from other teams using external entities, such as Red Bull and McLaren having technology centres or groups separate from their race team. Those work with more than one existing team, and it's been known about for years.
Very poor form from Mercedes. Not enough to outspend your rivals by hundreds of millions on engine development alone, and 5 day tyre tests?
I think the new issue is because the response they got from Charlie Whiting was that it was not in his remit, but was something for the stewards. Mercedes are now asking for clarification as to whether it is indeed up to the stewards.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 16:23
Desperately embarrassing from Mercedes.
Because they want clarity about the rules, and are wondering if Ferrari will be using Haas as an additional testing ground, and if they can do the same? Business as usual, and that's ok.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 17:13
Funny that? Ferrari closes the gap and Mercedes feels threatened.
With all the talk surrounding Ferrari's car next year having taking a step forward in improvement, people will bring up this point in every car and driver thread with claims of cheating.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 19:46
Tobias Grüner @tgruener 1 Std.Vor 1 Stunde
Mercedes worried about Ferrari aero progress for 2016. Force India sees HaasF1 as potential threat. AMuS (German): http://ams.to/ferrari-haasf1