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Sauber to become the second Honda team?


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:14

Ron Dennis has earmarked Sauber as a potential future second team for Honda, according to sources close to McLaren.
Dennis has now made it clear that Honda could not supply Red Bull in 2016 because the time scale made it impossible for the Japanese manufacturer to make enough parts.
However, there is increasing pressure from Jean Todt and Bernie Ecclestone for Honda to work with another team from 2017 onwards, and Sauber presents an obvious opportunity – not least because McLaren would not regard the Swiss team as a direct rival.

 

 

http://www.motorspor...ond-honda-team/



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#2 OilFour

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:38

The last time i checked the WCC standings Sauber was ahead of McLaren.

 

If the Honda unit isn't improving in 2016 i can't see any other reason ( then costs ) to step over from Ferrari to Honda. 



#3 FPV GTHO

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:08

This move if it happens might be motivated more from Saubers point of view. There were rumours earlier in the year they could be running customer Renaults in the future.

#4 SophieB

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:11

Our earlier excl on Sauber/Honda for 2017 - in German: http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/2015/12/sauber-honda-energisches-dementi-von-monisha-kaltenborn-15120104.html 



#5 Knowlesy

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:11

Poor Sauber.



#6 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:26

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.



#7 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:26

Talk about selfish McLaren bastards.  :rolleyes:

 

Red Bull - Honda for the win (literally)  :up:  :clap:

 

No reason Honda cannot supply three teams. 

 

Supplying Sauber seems daft given:

  • long-term Ferrari contract
  • Sauber's poor financial strength, barely able to operate without FOM cash advances  :rolleyes:


#8 prty

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:29

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.


How so? Red Bull went to twists and bends to prevent others become competitive in 2010-2013 too.

#9 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:39

How so? By preventing them access to a wind tunnel facility? Implanting a virus on the CFD-workstations?



#10 kraduk

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:41

 

Talk about selfish McLaren bastards.  :rolleyes:

 

Red Bull - Honda for the win (literally)  :up:  :clap:

 

No reason Honda cannot supply three teams. 

 

Supplying Sauber seems daft given:

  • long-term Ferrari contract
  • Sauber's poor financial strength, barely able to operate without FOM cash advances  :rolleyes:

 

 

 

FFS shall we have turns on the podium next season? Remember its taking part that counts and we dont care if you win or loose.  :drunk:



#11 SonJR

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:02

Can totally see this happen if it means Sauber doesn't have to pay any engine bills for a couple of years running.

And the next Honda's can't be worse than this year, you'd think, as long as they don't pull a Renault.



#12 Thanos89

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:15

The time scale made it impossible for the Japanese manufacturer to make enough parts....
LMFAO. They build like 20+ engines this year didn't they? Such a lame excuse really and given Sauber's economical situation it's not the brightest choice, no offence to Sauber fans.



#13 kraduk

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:22

The time scale made it impossible for the Japanese manufacturer to make enough parts....
LMFAO. They build like 20+ engines this year didn't they? Such a lame excuse really and given Sauber's economical situation it's not the brightest choice, no offence to Sauber fans.

 

Depends on your end game really doesn't it



#14 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:24

Can totally see this happen if it means Sauber doesn't have to pay any engine bills for a couple of years running.

And the next Honda's can't be worse than this year, you'd think, as long as they don't pull a Renault.

Why does everyone think Honda can bankroll two teams?



#15 Lotus53B

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:26

At the moment it is an open secret that customers do not have access to the full details of the engine and it's optimisations - Williams have mentioned this, and Ron himself has said that you can't win as a customer.  Given that Honda and Red Bull have significant partnerships in other areas, I wonder if Ron's main issue is that Red Bull would be able to leverage a co-works deal, and that would significantly impact Ron's ambitions.  Sauber, on the other hand, would, in the most likely scenario, only able to adopt the usual customer deal, with all the disadvantages that has.  And also, given the money woes Sauber has, it's unlikely that they could engineer the chassis and aero to be a significant competitor with McLaren, something that Red Bull has shown that they are easily capable of.

 

If McLaren are forced to share there engine supply, Sauber are the most likely target - anyone else, would have significant disadvantages.



#16 prty

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:48

How so? By preventing them access to a wind tunnel facility? Implanting a virus on the CFD-workstations?


Are you saying that McLaren put a virus on RedBull CFD workstations? :eek:

#17 ExFlagMan

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:55

How so? By preventing them access to a wind tunnel facility? Implanting a virus on the CFD-workstations?

Maybe taking Bernies's bribe to engineer the end of FOTA and hence any chance of a cost cap might be a more valid response!

 

The time scale made it impossible for the Japanese manufacturer to make enough parts....
LMFAO. They build like 20+ engines this year didn't they? Such a lame excuse really and given Sauber's economical situation it's not the brightest choice, no offence to Sauber fans.

But how many other engines did they build that failed before getting anywhere near the actual cars.

It is also pretty certain that with the attempt to catch up on development time shortfall resulting from being several years behind each unit would have almost have been a new development iteration on it's predecessor.



#18 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 09:55

No. You stated RB prevented others from gaining in 2010-2013. Well, what did RB do then? Like I said, did they prevent others from using windtunnels or CFD-hardware? 

 

@ExFlagMan

Dennis does want testing back (look at the Japan post-race interview on BBC with him). That bites with RRA.


Edited by SenorSjon, 01 December 2015 - 09:56.


#19 stewie

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:01

What world does Ron Dennis live in, because it sure as hell isn't the same one we all do.

Edited by stewie, 01 December 2015 - 10:01.


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#20 P123

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:14

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.


Yes, McLaren who went through the twists and bends to form a relationship with a new engine supplier on a works basis are behaving in a sickening manner by not gifting that to Red Bull.

#21 Mohican

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:50

Do not see why Kamui Kobaysahi gets mentioned here, he was always a Toyota person rather than Honda.

Same applies to Marcus Ericsson, 2009 Japanese F3 champion driving for TOM'S Toyota.

 

Having said that, a Sauber-Honda is an intriguing prospect - if such a deal were to free up Sauber resources to be used elsewhere.



#22 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:10

Yes, McLaren who went through the twists and bends to form a relationship with a new engine supplier on a works basis are behaving in a sickening manner by not gifting that to Red Bull.

 

Too right.

 

Honda have put ALOT of effort in.  Red Bull build one of the finest chassis in F1, and put ALOT of effort into their chassis.  For Honda to not team with Red Bull is utter madness!!



#23 muramasa

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:18

 

actually Ron talked about his/mchon's vision/prospect on future customer supply back in February

 

http://forums.autosp...68#entry7038802

-------------------

  • This is because cost is huge pressure in F1. You try to fill the void with sponsor money, and then as a result of being unable to find the sponsor, smaller teams have disappeared. We are trying to change such style of business.

(for instance?)

  • For example engine manufacturers. At the moment it's mostly car makers. For them money is no object in spending for development of engine, hence engine price has become very high. In such situation, smaller teams have no chance. So, there, what I propose is that you keep the initial price of engine low at first, then adding margins on it gradually. That way, smaller teams should be able to get their hands on engines. McLaren and Honda, once we can put our situation under our control, have intention to provide PU that is of affordable price, so that other teams can purchase reasonably. If engine manufacturer and carmaker charge smaller teams for its R&D cost, that can be fraudulent business model. If the burden of cost has become too much for smaller teams, they wont be able to participate in F1. McLaren, together with Honda, intend to change that business model.

Edited by muramasa, 01 December 2015 - 11:18.


#24 JeePee

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:27

I think Sauber ends up signing two engine deals.



#25 kraduk

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:35

What world does Ron Dennis live in, because it sure as hell isn't the same one we all do.

 

Ronworld, where only people with the name Ronald are allow. His best mate there has a red nose and smells of deep fried food.



#26 hittheapex

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 12:26

Too little too late. It's definitely in McLaren and Honda's interests to have a second team running the engines to get more data. I can understand McLaren's reasons for not wanting Red Bull to get them.

 

Waiting until 2017 just for this to start? Better hope for a miracle in the next few months. Best thing would have been getting those engines to Manor, perhaps they tried and Mercedes cleverly offered a better deal, helping to keep Manor in the sport and at the same time limiting Honda's scope to catch up.

 

I suppose if the Renault takeover of Enstone collapses, Honda could try and give them an engine.



#27 muramasa

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 12:50

yeah mclaren-honda wants true b-team for which they have their own "customer PU" program to supply PU at affordable price depending on condition but teams like RBR is not expected.

I'd guess that for manor Honda was too weak and not secure enough, and for honda/mclaren manor was too fragile. I'd reckon that for them teams like FI were ideal actually, but atm they are without option. For 2017 Sauber is one possible prospect, they have sort of lost Ferrari's 2nd team status to Haas now. For Mclaren Sauber is not too bad, also they can throw Vandoorne in the team.



#28 noikeee

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 12:57

Makes perfect sense, of course McLaren want Honda to get more data but from a team that won't threaten McLaren's works status.

 

Whether it makes perfect sense for Sauber is another story... but they're hardly swimming in money so getting a possibly cheaper engine and maybe even a driver from McLaren's/Honda's roster (Vandoorne, Matsushita, De Vries) might make for a better deal than Ferrari, who now has a closer association with Haas and hasn't got any driver ready to be placed in F1.



#29 ardbeg

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 13:01

Yes, McLaren who went through the twists and bends to form a relationship with a new engine supplier on a works basis are behaving in a sickening manner by not gifting that to Red Bull.

I think Ron plan on asking Honda to supply Red Bull only after he have helped Honda to iron out the quirks and misfits, ensuring that RBR will be immediately competitive. That is what F1 is really all about - helping your opponents to become faster!



#30 FPV GTHO

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 13:05

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but Sauber would likely need a complete rear end from McLaren as they're currently paying for that from Ferrari.

#31 CPR

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 13:14

More reports:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/122081
http://adamcooperf1....-honda-partner/

#32 Marklar

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 14:30

Monisha has already denied that btw.

#33 Lotus53B

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 15:50

Monisha has already denied that btw.

Given her track record with contracts, I really don't trust Monisha's word on anything nowadays - it's a shame, because I used to like her, but she seems to be a wee bitty duplicitous.



#34 AustinF1

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 16:04

Given her track record with contracts, I really don't trust Monisha's word on anything nowadays - it's a shame, because I used to like her, but she seems to be a wee bitty duplicitous.

They all are.



#35 charly0418

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 16:13

I think Sauber ends up signing two engine deals.

 

you win the internetz for today



#36 Lemans

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 17:25

People still mentioning RedBull. :rolleyes:

 

If they are so fantastic, they should go find their own works partnership the way McLaren has.

Or, like Ron told Christian, "Suck it up..." :D



#37 v@sh

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 19:53

People still mentioning RedBull. :rolleyes:

 

If they are so fantastic, they should go find their own works partnership the way McLaren has.

Or, like Ron told Christian, "Suck it up..." :D

 

Well actually they did with VW before the emissions scandal cut that out.



#38 Lemans

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 20:00

Well actually they did with VW before the emissions scandal cut that out.

 

Oh, well. Life is hard.



#39 mclarensmps

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 20:04

Too right.

 

Honda have put ALOT of effort in.  Red Bull build one of the finest chassis in F1, and put ALOT of effort into their chassis.  For Honda to not team with Red Bull is utter madness!!

 

Well then if they were bitching about Renault, why didn't they sign Honda for themselves and go through the growing pains themselves?

McLaren and Dennis are well within their rights to behave the way they are, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

If Red Bull were that appealing then they should have no issues attracting an engine manufacturer.

I wonder why they're struggling with that? Maybe we should ask Christian.



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#40 Lemans

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 20:07

Well then if they were bitching about Renault, why didn't they sign Honda for themselves and go through the growing pains themselves?

McLaren and Dennis are well within their rights to behave the way they are, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

If Red Bull were that appealing then they should have no issues attracting an engine manufacturer.

I wonder why they're struggling with that? Maybe we should ask Christian.

 

I think they should send Marko to charm some manufacturers. What could go wrong?



#41 LORDBYRON

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 20:17

Sure Ron give one good engine up for anther good engine......,,,,,,, Ron that's right you jut did that 


Edited by LORDBYRON, 01 December 2015 - 20:19.


#42 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:51

McLaren and Dennis are well within their rights to behave the way they are, and there's nothing wrong with it.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

 

Utter rubbish. 



#43 CoolBreeze

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 06:21

Well, he might start commenting on the lifestyle of the Sauber drivers then. 



#44 warp

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 06:49

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.

 

They can go and build their own PU. Nobody is blocking them from doing so.



#45 Nemo1965

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 07:22

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.

 

Sorry, but you are putting the world on it's head. The order of events:

 

- After another bad season, McLaren is in doubt, certainly because they can't seem to find proper sponsorship.

- Dennis says that title-sponsors are a thing of the past (meaning he has to get the money elsewhere).

- Dennis says that only teams with works-engines can win titles (meaning he has to have a contract with a manufacturer).

- Dennis (or McLaren) sign Honda

- Honda sort of, actually becomes McLaren's title-sponsor, by bankrolling both the engine and god knows what else.

- McLaren can, for the next years at last, survive.

 

Now you can't tell me that you, as a fan, would like to see McLaren disappear from F1. If we assume Dennis is right about the title-sponsorship and the necessity to have a works-engine to win, the deal with Honda is elementary for their survival. If Red Bull would become the 1st team for Honda at this moment, you know what would happen. Honda would terminate the contract with McLaren or demand payments. That would be the end for McLaren - again, in the perspective of Ron Dennis.

 

Soooooo... you think it is sickening that Dennis tries to save his F1-team?


Edited by Nemo1965, 02 December 2015 - 07:22.


#46 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 07:42

They go through twists and bends to prevent Red Bull from gaining acces to a powerful engine. It is sickening really.

 

 

They would not block them from getting a Honda engine then ... 



#47 HP

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:42

Well then if they were bitching about Renault, why didn't they sign Honda for themselves and go through the growing pains themselves?

McLaren and Dennis are well within their rights to behave the way they are, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

If Red Bull were that appealing then they should have no issues attracting an engine manufacturer.

I wonder why they're struggling with that? Maybe we should ask Christian.

There are anticompetitive laws. And which court in the EU would stand for that kind of veto Dennis apparently has?

 

Not that I really care because of RBR, but to applaud McLaren and Dennis and elsewhere possibly decrying other F1 team(s) who hold veto power is a bit rich. Who would want this kind of government for everyday life?

 

And Honda locking themselves in into such a contract, is not the most clever business practice I have ever heard of.

 

Besides, since teams cannot test like they were used too, what does McLaren gain from Sauber having the 2nd Honda engine, except keeping Red Bull at bay? Seems to me similar tactics were used in more successful times at McLaren, but those times are soon 2 decades past.

 

While I do wish the McLaren/Honda endeavour success, things like that are unnecessary for a team that once breathed success by a huge part on their engineering brilliance. I get the feeling it's getting very uncomfortable at McLaren if success doesn't come soon. And well the embarrassment if RBR came and used the Honda and would beat McLaren from the get go, would probably the death knell for McLaren the Ron Dennis way. But in the end Mclaren would profit, as it would force them to try differently to be successful. Ron Dennis is not that much younger than BE, so won't be around forever either.


Edited by HP, 02 December 2015 - 08:49.


#48 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:57

Well then if they were bitching about Renault, why didn't they sign Honda for themselves and go through the growing pains themselves?

McLaren and Dennis are well within their rights to behave the way they are, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

If Red Bull were that appealing then they should have no issues attracting an engine manufacturer.

I wonder why they're struggling with that? Maybe we should ask Christian.

 

The Honda deal was signed in 2013(?). A year where Renault became champions with Red Bull and Renault was confident they would rule in their much desired hybrid turbo engine formula. They had already forgotten that the engine freeze kept them in the game in the first place, otherwise Mercedes and Ferrari would have overpowered the RB-Renault long ago.

Come 2014, the engine wasn't good, but Ferrari was worse. Only Ferrari knew how to fix it mostly, while Renault still has no clue. What should RB have done? But there is a thread about this explaining it in detail.

 

Sorry, but you are putting the world on it's head. The order of events:

 

- After another bad season, McLaren is in doubt, certainly because they can't seem to find proper sponsorship.

- Dennis says that title-sponsors are a thing of the past (meaning he has to get the money elsewhere).

- Dennis says that only teams with works-engines can win titles (meaning he has to have a contract with a manufacturer).

- Dennis (or McLaren) sign Honda

- Honda sort of, actually becomes McLaren's title-sponsor, by bankrolling both the engine and god knows what else.

- McLaren can, for the next years at last, survive.

 

Now you can't tell me that you, as a fan, would like to see McLaren disappear from F1. If we assume Dennis is right about the title-sponsorship and the necessity to have a works-engine to win, the deal with Honda is elementary for their survival. If Red Bull would become the 1st team for Honda at this moment, you know what would happen. Honda would terminate the contract with McLaren or demand payments. That would be the end for McLaren - again, in the perspective of Ron Dennis.

 

Soooooo... you think it is sickening that Dennis tries to save his F1-team?

 

That is what you get from my comment?! What if Honda left and McLaren found itself within a cordon sanitaire for an engine? 



#49 Nemo1965

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:15

The Honda deal was signed in 2013(?). A year where Renault became champions with Red Bull and Renault was confident they would rule in their much desired hybrid turbo engine formula. They had already forgotten that the engine freeze kept them in the game in the first place, otherwise Mercedes and Ferrari would have overpowered the RB-Renault long ago.

Come 2014, the engine wasn't good, but Ferrari was worse. Only Ferrari knew how to fix it mostly, while Renault still has no clue. What should RB have done? But there is a thread about this explaining it in detail.

 

 

That is what you get from my comment?! What if Honda left and McLaren found itself within a cordon sanitaire for an engine? 

 

 

I get from your comment that you find a F1-team protecting its investments by keeping a partner to a arranged contract is 'sickening'. Just like many fans here find it sickening or cowardice that Mercedes don't want to give one of their prime rivals the technological advantages they have created themselves. 



#50 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 09:39

The contract with Bernie/FOM was that Honda had one team in the first year, but must be able to supply two or more teams the following years. So in 2016, they should be able to supply two teams. Dennis went all Toto with his veto against RB and rumours were the engine costed 60m/year (perhaps including the missing McLaren titlesponsor fee to forgo the veto).

 

I find it sickening a financial healthy team is being left out of a competitive engine, especially with F1 burning as it is and one of the most boring championships ever. But, financial unstable teams clinging on to survival and frequently not paying their engine bills have no problem in getting the crown jewels from Mercedes (Manor/Lotus) or Ferrari (Sauber).


Edited by SenorSjon, 02 December 2015 - 09:40.