80 replies to this topic

[OilFour]

They would not block them from getting a Honda engine then ... 

That's low man, way below the belt.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

No one is going to give RedBull the original powerunit except Renault and sticking with Renault is the most reasonable thing for RedBull to do.

 

McLaren lost sponsors, McLaren lost prize money and McLaren lost their influence because of being lower than fifth in WCC in 2015 just to make their alliance with Honda to be successful and still there are doubts. All being said, McLaren and Honda are not pointing fingers to eachother.

 

But:

 

RedBull have enjoyed being fourth in WCC, RedBull have gained sponsors instead of losing them, RedBull have received more prize money compare to McLaren and they have the influence because of being higher than fifth in WCC. All being said RedBull and Renault are pointing finger to eachother and more than that RedBull are trying to secure a competitive powerunit from rivals.

 

 

 

Christian... Suck it up 

Edited by RYARLE, 02 December 2015 - 11:23.

[FPV GTHO]

There's no influence to gain or lose between Red Bull or McLaren. They're both guranteed a spot in the strategy group with Ferrari, Mercedes and Williams.

[LuckyStrike1]

That's low man, way below the belt.

 

 

I saw the opporunity, an open hole, and drove a semi truck right through it! 

[Mohican]

This started as thread about McLaren, Honda and Sauber - and has now become yet another thread about Red Bull Racing. Can we keep on topic, please.

 

Personally think that Ron dennis is wrong to protect his investment in a results-wise wasted year from Red Bull, and just as wrong in making public statements about another team this way. It could be that Sauber management has a completely different world view from Ron; in fact, I hope they do.

[Fisico54]

Well actually they did with VW before the emissions scandal cut that out.

Myth, no more than rumours just like for the previous 4 decades

[muramasa]

　

it's sheer truth that Honda is still not prepared to offer satisfactory service for customer supply tho. They havent sorted basic quality control out fully yet. To say nothing of poor competitiveness of PU whose improvement is the priority first and foremost.

 

Having set up 3 brand-new facility from scratch just for F1, a major base in Sakura in Japan, a service facility (July 2014) and an R&D facility (under construction or almost complete) in Milton Keynes, probably Honda is still lacking capability both in logistics and personnel. They are working hard to "fulfill their responsibility to supply customer and contribute to F1 (Honda's own word that they've been saying repeatedly)" by constructing facilities in both JP and UK, training staff in Japan and recruiting staff in UK and establishing manufacturing and logistics chain, but quite not there yet, it's not an excuse at all, but cannot blatantly say "sorry we cant". There, Mclaren/Ron has to play a villain.

 

Also PU development/improvement aspect, final spec and dimension of 2016 PU wont be settled until the very last minute, and relatively Honda has far bigger task than other makers in improving PU, so working with another big teams like RBR is distraction, unless they accept tentative, suboptimal config (like over-capacity cooling, tentative config for the whole TC system, etc etc). Not difficult to imagine or not unrealistic to assume that Honda is having their hands full in working on their PU with McLaren so that cannot provide full service yet. Again not really an excuse.

Maybe mid-field teams wouldve still accepted and Mc-H wouldve been willing to make customer supply to them instead of RBR but no team available for them for 2016.

[SenorSjon]

Well they could build 20odd engines for McLaren alone. 

[CPR]

Well they could build 20odd engines for McLaren alone. 

 

There's much much more to supplying PUs than just the manufacturing - as muramasa indicates above.

[mclarensmps]

Utter rubbish. 

 

On what grounds? That you don't like it? Like I said: If Red Bull are that attractive, they should have other options available to them.

 

There are anticompetitive laws. And which court in the EU would stand for that kind of veto Dennis apparently has?

 

Not that I really care because of RBR, but to applaud McLaren and Dennis and elsewhere possibly decrying other F1 team(s) who hold veto power is a bit rich. Who would want this kind of government for everyday life?

 

And Honda locking themselves in into such a contract, is not the most clever business practice I have ever heard of.

 

Besides, since teams cannot test like they were used too, what does McLaren gain from Sauber having the 2nd Honda engine, except keeping Red Bull at bay? Seems to me similar tactics were used in more successful times at McLaren, but those times are soon 2 decades past.

 

While I do wish the McLaren/Honda endeavour success, things like that are unnecessary for a team that once breathed success by a huge part on their engineering brilliance. I get the feeling it's getting very uncomfortable at McLaren if success doesn't come soon. And well the embarrassment if RBR came and used the Honda and would beat McLaren from the get go, would probably the death knell for McLaren the Ron Dennis way. But in the end Mclaren would profit, as it would force them to try differently to be successful. Ron Dennis is not that much younger than BE, so won't be around forever either.

 

With regards to anticompetitive laws, I am not sure they would apply to a sporting competition. Exclusivity in suppliers for certain components, or a certain grade of component do exist; and to be honest, we don't know the details of the contracts signed between the parties. Remember, that Red Bull had access to an engine supplier, until they started slagging them off publicly. I don't see why it was okay for Renault to say refuse working with them anymore, but it's not okay for other manufacturers, or in this case Honda via Dennis.

 

On the broader issue of McLaren and/or Honda having the power to decry another team from a(n) "competitive" engine, this is essentially how the sport is governed, anyway. These teams veto any motion that would jeopardize their advantage or their right to an advantage. No team is exempt from this. Whether it's Red Bull, Mercedes, Force India or Sauber, they would all do it - and they do.

 

I kind of agree that Honda locking themselves into a contract like this is naive, to a point - however, that is a separate discussion.

 

You have an entirely valid point of McLaren being afraid of not having their house in order, and pressure being put on them from external and internal sources. And I completely agree with you on that. However, the other side to that coin is that they took the risky plunge of going with a new engine supplier (that happened to be under prepared), and they had to suffer the growing pains of getting up to speed with this manufacturer. Now, with the biggest brunt of the hit they had to take having being taken, for someone else to (also) come in and reap the rewards of their struggle, would make them look pretty foolish as a business. This is the angle I see it from, when I say that they are well within their right to deny a competitor access to the Honda engines.

 

An vaguely similar analogy can be made about Liverpool not wanting to sell Luis Suarez to Arsenal when Arsenal made a bid that met the player's release clause. Liverpool refused to sell Suarez to a "direct competitor", and no anti competitive laws were brought into question. 

 

The Honda deal was signed in 2013(?). A year where Renault became champions with Red Bull and Renault was confident they would rule in their much desired hybrid turbo engine formula. They had already forgotten that the engine freeze kept them in the game in the first place, otherwise Mercedes and Ferrari would have overpowered the RB-Renault long ago.

Come 2014, the engine wasn't good, but Ferrari was worse. Only Ferrari knew how to fix it mostly, while Renault still has no clue. What should RB have done? But there is a thread about this explaining it in detail.

 

I don't disagree with you for the most part, but again, I look at it from the point of view of a team taking a risk, and then someone else coming in to reap the rewards. From a business perspective, I can see how McLaren put safeguards in place to maintain at least some kind of advantage, for having taken such a big risk of getting a new (old) manufacturer enter the sport with them. No reasonably savvy business would voluntarily allow that to happen. 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

To those who are defending RedBull:

 

- Manufacturers always want their customers to be one or two steps behind in terms of competitiveness and this has been the case for a long time, So why do RedBull expect to receive a competitive powerunit from the rivals?

 

- Having works team status is such an excellent opportunity for every Formula1 team and I wonder why RedBull did throw Renault under the bus? After all just look at BMW-Sauber to know why being a works team is much needed to be successful.

 

ToroRosso have made a big mistake to accept the 2015 Ferrari powerunit for 2016. In some areas, 2015 and 2016 Ferrari power unit will be different and I imagine there would be no token upgrade for their 2015 powerunit as well because Ferrari will be busy upgrading their new powerunit although I appreciate any info about this matter?

 

IMO 2016 Renault power unit will be better than 2015 Ferrari powerunit considering works team status that RedBull will enjoy in 2016.

 

Talking about Sauber having Honda powerunit does make sense for both parties but that will depend on Honda's 2016 powerunit performance. Having a competitive slim Honda power unit for a midfield team can do miracles in terms aerodynamic obviously. We will see if Honda's 2016 powerunit is slim or fatter and competitive or not??!! 

Edited by RYARLE, 02 December 2015 - 16:57.

[Scuferrari]

To those who are defending RedBull:

 

- Manufacturers always want their customers to be one or two steps behind in terms of competitiveness and this has been the case for a long time, So why do RedBull expect to receive a competitive powerunit from the rivals?

 

- Having works team status is such an excellent opportunity for every Formula1 team and I wonder why RedBull did throw Renault under the bus? After all just look at BMW-Sauber to know why being a works team is much needed to be successful.

 

ToroRosso have made a big mistake to accept the 2015 Ferrari powerunit for 2016. In some areas, 2015 and 2016 Ferrari power unit will be different and I imagine there would be no token upgrade for their 2015 powerunit as well because Ferrari will be busy upgrading their new powerunit although I appreciate any info about this matter?

 

IMO 2016 Renault power unit will be better than 2015 Ferrari powerunit considering works team status that RedBull will enjoy in 2016.

 

Talking about Sauber having Honda powerunit does make sense for both parties but that will depend on Honda's 2016 powerunit performance. Having a competitive slim Honda power unit for a midfield team can do miracles in terms aerodynamic obviously. We will see if Honda's 2016 powerunit is slim or fatter and competitive or not??!! 

 

Renault will have to find 60-80 HP to only match Ferrari's 2015 power unit. I believe Toro Rosso will have a considerable advantage over Red Bull, at least during the first part of the season.

And let's see... if Ferrari gives Toro Rosso an updated 2015 engine, which won't be more than 25-30 HP behind the actual 2016 Ferrari engine...then Red Bull are in trouble. And Williams also.

Edited by Scuferrari, 02 December 2015 - 17:16.

[KnucklesAgain]

There are anticompetitive laws. And which court in the EU would stand for that kind of veto Dennis apparently has?

 

There are indeed laws against anti-competitive practices, but they don't say what you think they do. This is a reasonable start: https://en.wikipedia...opean_Union_law

 

Any court in the EU would allow a business to sign an exclusive contract with a supplier if the business in question does not have a monopoly status. For a run-of-the-mill example, http://www.extremete...ne-6-and-beyond

 

[Edit, to illustrate: As far as I can tell, if the laws worked the way you seem to think they do, this would be OK:

1. HP Computers Ltd. and KA Peripherals Ltd. are two rather average players in their respective markets, both doing ok but neither being near any kind of dominant position in their areas of business. Neither company is in the position of depending exclusively on the other.

2. HP Computers and KA Peripherals agree to work together on a groundbreaking new hardware gadget. It's part of the contract that during the first two years the partners are under strict NDA and may not share the product or any information about it with others.

3. One year into the relationship, RBR Computers Ltd. inevitable hears about the gadget and figures that they want a part of it. They don't care for HP Computer's contribution because RBR is a computer company themselves, but they want the work KA Peripherals did. They sue in front of a EU court, asking that KA Peripherals hand over their prototype.

4. The court decides for RBR because HP Computers was not allowed to have an exclusive contract with KA.]

 

Not that I really care because of RBR, but to applaud McLaren and Dennis and elsewhere possibly decrying other F1 team(s) who hold veto power is a bit rich. Who would want this kind of government for everyday life?

 

No idea what you are talking about, but no matter.

 

And Honda locking themselves in into such a contract, is not the most clever business practice I have ever heard of.

 

I don't think that a limited exclusive deal for 2 years (or for as long as PU testing mode continues) is stupid, nor is it unusual if two companies enter a joint development project. In fact it's what any company entering such a relationship wouid do, and would expect the partner to do. It's not just that Honda is tied to McLaren for now, McLaren is tied to Honda as well (or do you think they could simply turn around and install a Merc if they get one? Surely not)

 

Besides, since teams cannot test like they were used too, what does McLaren gain from Sauber having the 2nd Honda engine, except keeping Red Bull at bay? Seems to me similar tactics were used in more successful times at McLaren, but those times are soon 2 decades past.

 

From Sauber they would get as many miles as from RBR with less risk.

 

While I do wish the McLaren/Honda endeavour success, things like that are unnecessary for a team that once breathed success by a huge part on their engineering brilliance. I get the feeling it's getting very uncomfortable at McLaren if success doesn't come soon. And well the embarrassment if RBR came and used the Honda and would beat McLaren from the get go, would probably the death knell for McLaren the Ron Dennis way. But in the end Mclaren would profit, as it would force them to try differently to be successful. Ron Dennis is not that much younger than BE, so won't be around forever either.

 

And here you realized yourself that anything but exclusivity at least for a limited time would actually be the stupid thing to do.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 December 2015 - 20:48.

[chained]

poor sauber ! 

[BRG]

poor sauber ! 

Poor is of course the word.  Beggars can't be choosers.  They would jump at a free Honda supply, I imagine.

[Marklar]

Bumping an old thread

 

AMS F1 News ‏@ams_formula1  3h3 hours ago

Sauber will run 2016 Ferrari engine spec in 2017 according to our sources. 2018 with Honda? #AMuS: http://goo.gl/fb/TcXmeZ 

[Jovanotti]

Sauber should definitely think about it if there's a chance of getting the newest Honda spec. They're clearly just an afterthought for Ferrari.

[Pete_f1]

Why not? They should get their poop together and be somewhere around the top in terms of power by then.

[Xentas]

Ron Dennis needs to eat some humble pie and accept that Honda need a second team to develop the engine out. Right now i think Sauber would jump at the chance to secure an engine deal with Honda if only one more hurdle cleared and it helps Mclaren as well. Besides Sauber have never been the powerhouse that Mclaren has been the last 3 decades. Sure Sauber have scored a few podiums as Sauber, as BMW sauber they scored a win and a few podiums, but in the end Mclaren were always better than Sauber in ability and resources.

 

Does Ron want to sit around and see his cars plod around the grid near the back for another 2 or 3 seasons or will he allow Sauber into the deal and both of them can give Honda what they need the most, thus both Sauber and Mclaren can benefit from the deal?

[Lennat]

IMO it was a mistake to even allow year old engines...

 

There's no need for Sauber to be even crappier.

[Marklar]

Thread title might be outdated but here you go

Tobi Grüner 🏁‏ @tgruener
Sauber has not renewed Ferrari engine contract for 2018. Already in talks with Honda for a new deal.

AMuS (German): (link: http://www.auto-moto...8-11648073.html) auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/saube…

[ExFlagMan]

If Manor goes under there would be a potential Merc deal available...

[shonguiz]

That better comes with a hefty discount.

[Lotus53B]

With Pascal and his Mercedes links in the team you have to wonder if Sauber are going to try and get contracts with 2 engine suppliers...

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I think a Mercedes PU supply deal is more likely...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 17 January 2017 - 19:27.

[noikeee]

Thread title might be outdated but here you go

Fixed. Previously, as per the original opening post of 2015, it was titled "Dennis targets Sauber as second Honda team?".

[pdac]

With Pascal and his Mercedes links in the team you have to wonder if Sauber are going to try and get contracts with 2 engine suppliers...

 

Yep, two contracts, each to supply two cars will mean they can run at least four of the drivers that they sign.

[SB]

I think a Mercedes PU supply deal is more likely...

 

In fact it is so reasonable right ??! 

 

[Peter0Scandlyn]

With Pascal and his Mercedes links in the team you have to wonder if Sauber are going to try and get contracts with 2 engine suppliers...

 

Well given Ms Kaltenborn's skill at signing multiple drivers, why not? .........

[Myrvold]

Thread title might be outdated but here you go

Tobi Grüner ‏ @tgruener
Sauber has not renewed Ferrari engine contract for 2018. Already in talks with Honda for a new deal.

AMuS (German): (link: http://www.auto-moto...8-11648073.html) auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/saube…

Slightly surprised that they didn't go for Matsushita, I am sure they could've gotten a waiver or three, and at the same time made Honda happy.

[Mohican]

There is apparently a 12 month notice period in the engine supply contracts, which is presumably what Grüner refers to when he talks about the Ferrari contract not having been extended for 2018.

And if Manor disappears there should be a Mercedes supply available as well as perhaps Honda - interesting that Wehrlein announcement only ever mentioned 2017.

 

But if the choice is between becoming no. 1 customer (with Honda) or no.3 customer (with Mercedes, after Force India and Williams) - apart from the McLaren and Mercedes works teams, of course - then the Japanese option does not look so unattractive.