26 replies to this topic

[SimeonSasparella]

As we know, WTCC is hardly in a state of splendour... with the 2015 season now over, its depressing state makes me think back with fondness at the series that was until 4-5 years ago, and even at good old ETCC (European championship...Alfas vs BMW..  )

 

Will Volvo's entry for next year provide more excitement?
Should the WTCC do something to make their Nordschleife event a "landmark" race for the series, the jewel  of its crown? 

Is there a viable way of "capping" the investment from makes, avoiding total domination à la Citroen?

Am I the only one who does not like the current calendar? 

The emerging TCR serie might be the nail in the coffin? Is it possible to speculate a future merger between the two? 

 

discuss

I'd like to hear your opinions

[BRG]

TCR is just WTCC-Lite.  It is identical except read SEAT for Citroen and more of the drivers are unknowns.

 

WTCC needs to ban manufacturer teams, and run longer races.  10 lap sprints are just not credible;e in a world championship.

[SenorSjon]

That. The short races are a real turn-off. They should at least last 45-60 minutes lapwise. I don't like the aero part either. What happened to the beefed up production cars of the nineties? Now it s an inbreed between TCR and DTM. Their calendar is very unpredictable so I usually find out on Sunday afternoon I've missed the races. 

[BRG]

Yes, you're right on the aero point.  It is the blight on all motor-sport, it seems.

 

WTCC could do worse than look at BTCC for chassis specs, but not their spec engine.

[noikeee]

My thoughts is they should let it die, it's beyond saving. I don't think even at its best this was ever an interesting championship. The weight penalties (yes I know this is standard for touring cars now), short races and lack of competition always made it near unwatchable.

[THEWALL]

One team dominates, the cars are ugly (there's nothing attractive or interesting about them), there's no real close racing. If Loeb did not save it, it'll take a major restructuring in terms of rules, specs, among other, to have a possibility of it surviving. 

[ardbeg]

FWD + aero = procession. A RWD car still have something when front gets light, but...
 

Give the RWD's some advantage (yes, I'm biased, I don't FWD has any place in racing).

I tried to watch a few races this season but it was almost unbearable. Used to be a huge fan of BTCC.

[TheRacingElf]

They should get rid of all the aero first of all and go back to more production based cars, that would make the racing better and the costs lower. The race format could be changed as well as the promoter/broadcaster, Eurosport is just a pain in the ass, even if want to watch a WTCC race it isn't possible most of the time because they just broadcast something else.

 

I still think TCR will overtake WTCC in a few years time, it's basically the same concept as GT3 and that took some years to grow as well. WTCC is like GTE and only viable for factory teams and will probably only get interesting when the economy rises and more manufacturers join in.

Edited by TheRacingElf, 02 December 2015 - 15:51.

[AlexLangheck]

Let it die. Define what is a Touring car? There are so many variations of it, that you can't really have a 'World' car. Touring cars are better for national/ regional series.

As already said, they fly all around the world for 2x20 minute races......ridiculous. Take the World Championship status from it, and make it a FiA World Cup.

[BT44/45]

FWD + aero = procession. A RWD car still have something when front gets light, but...
 

Give the RWD's some advantage (yes, I'm biased, I don't FWD has any place in racing).

I tried to watch a few races this season but it was almost unbearable. Used to be a huge fan of BTCC.

 

 

procession wise, the (rwd) DTM is hardly any better. don't know which period of the btcc you were a big fan of, but the much heralded super touring era was a fwd era too.

 

just ditch the excessive focus on aero. no rear wings. no splitters. don't let them run that stupid positive rake angle (looks fugly). 350 bhp. a bit more suspension travel.

what i want to see is, that these cars are bloody difficult to drive. i want to see some wrestling through the bends.

[chunder27]

Sadly, the FIA are still clining to the Super Touring bandwagon that was ctaully nothng to do with them!

 

The lost the WTCC when it would have totally changed the world of touring car racing and Gow showed them a new world.

 

Since then touring cars has shown it has nothing more than a solid regional following, and even then perhaps only Britain, Germany and France  and maybe JApan had legs.

 

Since the demise of Super Touring the initial few years of ETCC were good, but they even then were dominated by perhpas one car.

 

I think the diesel SEAT brought things to a head, ruined the series uterly and forced drivers and teams away.

 

Then they loast Macau and started racing at tracks like Morocco rather than Pau in a vane bid (as most struggling series do these days) to earn money from paying countries MSA's and dressing it up as taking series to new venues.

Qatar is the epitome of that struggle

 

Let is die, it needs reinventing somehow.

 

I would prefer a more proddy based thing, using perhaps bigger cars. Somehting like Supercars V8 was initially in Itlay before that ruined itself

[ezequiel]

Kia is developing a TC1 for 2017 when some changes to the current rules will be introduced and Citroen likely remains only as an independent through SLR. The problem with these TC1 cars is that costs have doubled up in respect to the previous set of rules. The engines seem to be particularly expensive: I guess taking out near 400 bhp from a 1.6 litre turbo engine is something difficult that requires tons of investment, but manufacturers these days seem to prefer little turbo engines rather that less complicated production-based normally aspirated larger capacity ones. Suspensions seem to be too fragile too, you can't bump with other cars without the wheels coming off.

TCR could be succesful and I think Lotti actually aims at competing and perhaps aiding the struggle of WTCC, but the cars where lapping 7 seconds away from the TC1s at Macau, so if people complained that the previous TC2/TC2Ts were unexciting I don't think the current TCRs —even when they look better that tc2s— would make a good replacement for a World Touring Car Championship. And the TCR International Series had an uneven first season with only 9 or 10 drivers racing full season and the car count dropping to 12-14 in Russia and one of the Austrian rounds if memory doesn't fail me. So, they seem hardly dependent on race by race entries so far.

Edited by ezequiel, 21 December 2015 - 18:30.

[TCRacing]

I loved the WTCC before the TC1 spec cars, it had a right balance between factory and private cars, and provided some really exciting races. I would suggest to go back to TC2's

[V8 Fireworks]

I would like to see relevant regulation.  A merger with TCR seems inevitable, it's much stronger.  I am surprised that TCR's production based cars (which seem to use OEM rubber hoses instead of racing reinforced ones for example) are durable enough for hard racing, but apparently it's the case.

 

Furthermore, it seems illogical that WTCC should have a different spec to the popular, albeit expensive, BTCC.  TC1 and TCN1/2 is too complicated, all 2000cc touring classes should use the same rules..  Crucially local teams should enter their local WTCC race, especially a British extravaganza round of the WTCC being a kind of return to the World Cup days.

 

A return to Super 2000 machines that are actually based on the cars they represent would be ideal.  To have RWD Toyota GT86s and n/a BMWs racing against FWD Civic Type Rs, Renaults and the like, with their 2000cc twin-cam engines screaming loudly is a lot of fun.    Somehow cost would need to be managed though. 

 

 

 Sadly turbocharging is probably inevitable and unavoidable -- most Touring Car fans must admit that 4 cylinder turbos tend to sound not too great really...    but the action in BTCC is so good it doesn't matter  .

 

[V8 Fireworks]

 

I would prefer a more proddy based thing, using perhaps bigger cars. Somehting like Supercars V8 was initially in Itlay before that ruined itself

 

 

 

How do the laptimes compared to GT3? 

• Volvo S60
• Lexus RC F
• BMW M4
• Mercedes C63 AMG
• Cadillac CTS-V
• Ford Mustang Shelby GT350
• Infiniti Q50
• Audi RS5
• etc

Balancing V8 and turbo six-cylinder may prove very difficult. 

These manufacturers are already in GT3, so maybe they are not interested.  

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 December 2015 - 07:04.

[Peat]

Happily letting manufacturers outbid one another to effectively own the championship was a mistake. And they are paying for it. Let it burn. 

[JeanPierre33]

I agree with BT44 / 45, the touring car should not have rear wings .- Excessive aerodynamic loads are killing the sport, there are not emotions.    Moreover drivers are needed first class. Monteiro, Micheliz, do not measure .... If the wtcc not understand this, is dead

[Pierce89]

The problem with WTCC isn't the cars. The problem is after Pechito. Muller, Loeb and Huff, all the drivers suck.

[chunder27]

It is only alive because Citroen bought it, in most cases it should have died a few years back.

Seat started the rot though.

If it wasnt owned by Eurosport it would have died a happy death years ago anyway.

Worldwide touring cars all running their series works fine, this does not

[messy]

For some reason the WTCC has never really done it for me, even though at its height ALL the right ingredients were there. I adored the mid-late 90s BTCC so much, and in the mid 00s the WTCC had pretty much all the drivers from that era - Rydell, Menu, Tarquini, Thompson, Muller etc plus all these stars from Germany, from Le Mans, Alex Zanardi, Andy Priaulx, big manufacturer backing, but even then, at its height, I always found it a bit lacking. Now, it's nowhere near that height, it's been completely two-dimensional this season, very little competition, a weak roster of drivers who are either uninspiring or well past their sell-by date, not even the Nordschleife could save it.

[KinkyMasta]

Happily letting manufacturers outbid one another to effectively own the championship was a mistake. And they are paying for it. Let it burn. 

 

 

Exactly. This and DTM-esque aero are killing it. Just copy what BTCC does (Spec subframes and suspensions) and let the manufacturers design their own engine but keeping very tight regulations.  

[ensign14]

How can a series for touring cars - i.e. something you should be buying from a showroom, bunging in a roll cage and voom - have about eight entrants?   Cuckooland logic.

[Prost1997T]

1990s BTCC\DTM\ITCC were great. Don't think those heights can be scaled again, sadly.

[rhukkas]

Exactly. This and DTM-esque aero are killing it. Just copy what BTCC does (Spec subframes and suspensions) and let the manufacturers design their own engine but keeping very tight regulations.  

 

BTCC is getting duller and duller by the year (tends to happen with series going more spec orientated), not sure that's a way to go. 

[ezequiel]

I agree with BT44 / 45, the touring car should not have rear wings .- Excessive aerodynamic loads are killing the sport, there are not emotions.    Moreover drivers are needed first class. Monteiro, Micheliz, do not measure .... If the wtcc not understand this, is dead

 

I disagree in respect to Monteiro and Michelisz. Hugo Valente is very promising and Nick Catsburg and Nico Lapierre were superb additions last season. It's true some of the youngsters seem to be out of depth: Koszlovskyi was hopeless, Demoustier is dubious and Filippi only began to show some promise by the end of the year.

[JHSingo]

BTCC is getting duller and duller

 

Not sure what you mean by that...

 

As for WTCC, I think the job of saying what is wrong with it currently is an awful lot easier than suggesting how it can be fixed. In the mid to late 00s it was pretty good, when you had Alfa, Honda, BMW, Seat, Chevrolet fighting it out. At the moment I think the WTCC is having something of an identity crisis, not being quite sure what it really wants to be.

 

Also, it has not been helped by recent periods of domination by one manufacturer, first Chevrolet and now Citroen. It shouldn't be possible to dominate touring car racing in that way. Touring cars should be about close, competitive racing. It was obvious to everyone from the moment Citroen began their extensive testing programme that they would be in a very strong position right from the start. Maybe there should be stricter rules on the amount that you can test to prevent that from happening again.

 

It needs cars that are somewhere in between being fast/spectacular enough (for instance, I don't think the NGTC cars in BTCC are either of those things) and being close enough in specification to allow good racing. They need to have regulations that appeal to a large group of manufacturers, and yet be cheap enough for privateers to be able to compete. 

 

I also think some mistakes have been made with the calendar. While racing at the Nurburgring has been a great achievement, dropping Macau for Qatar or wherever they race now was a very foolish move. Macau has more character than some track in the middle of the desert has, easily.

 

All in all, I'm not really sure what the future is for WTCC. It lacks close racing and star drivers and is pretty anonymous at the moment, with DTM being the premier touring car series in Europe. While Volvo's entry is a welcome boost, it is a series that needs a lot fixing. I'm not sure the current people in charge are up to the job, frankly.

Edited by JHSingo, 23 December 2015 - 18:47.

[chunder27]

Series drop races for one reason, and one reason only.

 

Money.

 

Qatar offered more.

 

How this series can not race at the jewel in the crown that is Macau is beyond me.

 

I expect it is likely due to WTCC wanting far too much money for the race.

 

It is the prime reason why races are run these days in these so called premier series.