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Red Bull Racing-TAG Heuer RB12


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#2751 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 13:40

Paddock gossip. Was the same with Mercedes in 2013 btw.


Yeah, I remember that gossip in 2013 about how Mercedes had a 100hp advantage with their hybrid PU. I thought at the time that it was complete BS. Turns out the talk was pretty accurate.

Which doesn't mean the rumours will be right this time. But there does seem to be an air of quiet confidence at a Red Bull. You're never sure what your competitors are doing, but they're a pretty smart bunch and if this doesn't present the right opportunity to catch up, I'm not sure what will.

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#2752 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 20:31

Horner on the decision to start both cars tomorrow on the Supersofts -

We discussed it this morning and we thought our best opportunity would be on the supersoft, whereas at the last race it wasn't clear.

"We've put both of our cars on that tyre, because we believe for us it's the better strategy for our car and our race. They converged on set-up, they're both pretty happy with their cars.

"We were fairly certain based on [Mercedes'] tyre selection that [starting on the softs was] what they would be aiming for.
Racing Mercedes on the same strategy, they would be able to cover you and have a little pace advantage.

"At least by doing this it adds another element to the race, and strategically it's going to make it more exciting."

With a potentially longer first stint Mercedes has a clear chance to do a soft-medium one stopper, but Horner didn't rule out one stop for Red Bull.

"I think you've got to be flexible. The temperature with these tyres is so sensitive, I think you've got to have your mind open to any scenario."


http://www.motorspor...ercedes-844688/

#2753 FPV GTHO

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 22:20

I think 9 times out of 10 this year anybody front runner that has started on the harder tyre inevitably covers the soft tyre guys on the first stops anyway. We saw with Ricciardo in Austin when he stopped, Verstappen only did a couple more laps.

#2754 statman

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:44

Asked this in another thread but maybe better here: how are they getting more and more competitive during this season? They haven't introduced one major update after another right? Even on these power tracks they're now fairly good



#2755 FPV GTHO

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:01

I read elsewhere they've still been doing big updates, but it's alot of tiny changes everywhere

#2756 lio007

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:41

I read elsewhere they've still been doing big updates, but it's alot of tiny changes everywhere

 

Really? Where did you read that!

I think it's pretty much an Australia-spec-car. There haven't been any major, visible updates (expect the really different FW in Spa, but it was only used once in free practice session). It is understood RBR used most of their CFD and wind tunnel capacities for the 2017 challenger.



#2757 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:58

Asked this in another thread but maybe better here: how are they getting more and more competitive during this season? They haven't introduced one major update after another right? Even on these power tracks they're now fairly good

On the previous page in this thread, I linked to an article by Matt Somerfield, who thinks that Red Bull's new Virtual Test Track (VTT) is a big part of the reason -

What stands out to me this season in terms of Red Bull is not only how they’ve managed to leapfrog over Ferrari toward Mercedes but the fact that they’ve done it with the minimum amount of aero work. Ordinarily Red Bull are one of the busiest teams on the grid in terms of aero, with updates coming thick and fast. However, this year has been quite the opposite, which of course you could argue they’ve opted to spend their limited CFD and Wind Tunnel time apportioned to next year's car rather than this but I think it comes down to more than just that.

Red Bull’s aerodynamic design philosophy is ingrained in their last 7 challengers (RB5 through RB12) and have all the hallmarks of Adrian Newey designed machines but, the last three cars have been heavily compromised, as they’ve had to marginalise their chassis to maximise the relatively poor performance of Renault’s powerunit. Like Mercedes they’ve been working on areas of the car that run into the grey, with tyres and kinematics a prime example of where their respective cars outshine the rest of the field and again allowing them to close the perceived gaps. However, since the use of the VTT I think where they’ve excelled is being able to define their limitations, rather than just thinking about setup, mechanical or aerodynamic, in a raw way. For example, there is no point being able to achieve 201mph on the pit straight for one lap if that means you’ve destroyed your energy matrix for the next five and can only achieve 195mph. You have to be smarter than that, pick your fights and know when the car, tyres and strategy allow you to deploy maximum attack. I believe the VTT is a big part of that jigsaw puzzle, as it not only hones these setup choices before getting to the circuits but also gives the drivers an insight into what they can achieve and why.

Note also that article this refers to Red Bull's mastery of (suspension) kinematics and tyres. So a lot of the work is under the skin to things like the front heave spring, which won't necessarily produce a visibly different car, even if updates are introduced throughout the season.

http://www.somersf1....ut-testing.html

Edited by LiftAndCoast, 01 November 2016 - 14:31.


#2758 HoldenRT

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:56

I haven't payed attention to any teams updates this season, but they seem to have built upon their understanding of the car race on race.. and have a good understanding of the tyres, strategies etc.  Being efficient.  The core car seems like it was easy to setup and consistant from earlier in the year.  Engine modes/fuel, things above like suspension.. it's possible to refine a lot of things without constant major updates.  Redbull seem to have become really good at all the small things that add up.. getting the most juice out of the orange etc.  Which is one of Ferrari's biggest flaws at the moment.



#2759 lio007

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 04:44

Sounds good:
http://www.motorspor...017-847738/?s=1

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#2760 v@sh

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 07:06

 

Sounding good is one thing, actually executing is another.

 

It sounded good in 2014 and 2015 and both PUs ended up being lemons.



#2761 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 08:14

2015 was a lemon, 2014 just wasn't powerful enough from the ICE.

#2762 TheBishop

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 08:19

I haven't payed attention to any teams updates this season, but they seem to have built upon their understanding of the car race on race.. and have a good understanding of the tyres, strategies etc. Being efficient. The core car seems like it was easy to setup and consistant from earlier in the year. Engine modes/fuel, things above like suspension.. it's possible to refine a lot of things without constant major updates. Redbull seem to have become really good at all the small things that add up.. getting the most juice out of the orange etc. Which is one of Ferrari's biggest flaws at the moment.


But how do you explain the huge differences in performance of Ferrari compared to RB and Mercedes? RB chips away and comes closer and closer while Ferrari seem to make 1 step forward and then 2 backwards. Can't seem to find consistency

#2763 HoldenRT

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 10:02

IMO Ferrari's problem is on the human side of things.  But obviously that would go away if the designed the best engine or car next year and started dominating, then it'd be happy families.  But in terms of building towards that, the teams structure and culture.. yeah.  They also have a hard time being original or innovative.  They are more reactionary in terms of what other people are doing.

 

So it's good what Renault are doing (the upside is high) but it also comes with risks.  Doubt they'll have a backup plan (like this years engine?).. but one thing in their favour is that they are designing now for their own works team and not just for Redbull.  So they have more of a vested interest.



#2764 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 10:43

Ferrari dont understand the tyres to the same degree as Red Bull and Mercedes. Given theres alot of mystery there, it has a massive influence.

#2765 HoldenRT

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 17:41

That's the excuse for this season but what about the last 5 or 6 years as a whole?



#2766 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 21:39

The tyres haven't been stagnant in that period, and generally over the same period Mercedes have been hard on the tyres whilst Ferrari has been light. The trends from that of Mercedes struggling on the softer tyres and Ferrari struggling on the harder tyres has been consistent during that period. Ferrari at one stage also had one of the ex Bridgestone techs working for them, but AFAIK they left some time ago.

#2767 HoldenRT

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 13:09

You're right in that it's definitely been a factor.  Whether or not it's the whole story, I'm not so sure.



#2768 Viryfan

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 18:17

According to Canal+ , Renault is facing big reliability issues with the new ICE on the dyno which are hampering the progress for 2017.



#2769 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 18:21

According to Canal+ , Renault is facing big reliability issues with the new ICE on the dyno which are hampering the progress for 2017.

Ugh. Please let this be wrong.

Edit: Vasseur said in today's press conference that the program for next year's engine was going well, but who knows if that's actually the case. It's hard to imagine a team principal saying otherwise.

Edited by LiftAndCoast, 11 November 2016 - 19:56.


#2770 turssi

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 01:27

I'd love hearing some input on how they made their strategy in Brazil. Any interviews out there?

#2771 mistareno

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 02:19

According to Canal+ , Renault is facing big reliability issues with the new ICE on the dyno which are hampering the progress for 2017.

 

I'd be very surprised. They aren't reinventing the wheel. 



#2772 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 02:23

I'd be very surprised. They aren't reinventing the wheel.


Apparently they are.

Renault team principal Fred Vasseur told Motorsport.com: “We have some good improvements in the pipeline. We will have a completely new engine next year.

“It is 100 percent new. It was the end of the development of the current one. We needed to do a step in order to move forward and we will do that. So far, everything is progressing and close to the expectations"


http://www.motorspor...f1-2017-847738/

#2773 mistareno

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 03:09

 

I'm sure every part of the ICE is refined or lightened in some way now that the restrictions are gone but I think the main change will be the integration of components and improvements to the TJI system but I doubt they threw out the baby with the bath water.


Edited by mistareno, 14 November 2016 - 03:10.


#2774 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 03:11

Don't get me wrong, I really hope they get it right. But it does sound like more than just an evolution of the current spec.

Hopefully Red Bull can use their VTT to help iron out any issues over the winter.

#2775 Alfisti

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 03:16

Cannot fathom for a second why they stopped either car for inters today, preposterous.

#2776 Marklar

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 07:50

Horner said that they wanted to win the race and Hamilton was too quick on full wets, so they risked something.

#2777 Freeze011

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 08:44

I can understand it, you have nothing to lose, but a lot to potentially win. Their 2nd place in the constructors was pretty save with one of the Ferrari's in the wall.



#2778 A3

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 08:51

Horner said that they wanted to win the race and Hamilton was too quick on full wets, so they risked something.

 

As I said in the Max vs Dan thread, I can understand the gamble for 1 car, but you don't put the 2nd placed car on inters when the whole world knows the rain is going to intensify.

 

Had Max finished P9 behind Ricciardo, people would have laughed at Red Bull's strategy.


Edited by A3, 14 November 2016 - 08:52.


#2779 Marklar

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 18:37

Red Bull extended their TAG Heuer *cough* deal for another two years

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#2780 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 18:50

Red Bull extended their TAG Heuer *cough* deal for another two years

Montage-of-Nicolas-Cage-a-001.jpg?w=620&



#2781 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 19:53

I don't think Mercedes engine advantage will increase, I don't see where the removal of tokens benefits them there. They haven't made many big hardware changes, like Ferrari for instance. I think that suggests their initial research was spot on.

As they (Mercedes) are free to design a whole new PU, if there were any design issues they would be free to start again and remove them and by using all the knowledge they have gained thus far... 2017 will be very interesting...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 25 November 2016 - 19:54.


#2782 vonTrips

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 19:43

I wonder if Renault's new engine will be based on the Mario Illien (Ilmore) design, proposed to Renault mid-2015, which they tested, but opted not to use at that time. But now they mention they will develop a new power unit based on a new engine concept (Illien's?)
Illien made some remarks about how to further tune up the engine and mentioned that fuel-mixing was one of the areas where significant gains were to be made. This could explain RB's move to ExxonMobil.
It will be interesting to see how the Total fueled engine will perform vs the ExxonMobil one.
The fact that Illien is hired through TAG Heuer, RB's partner, it looks like RB could obtain some knowledge, not available to Renault, about which fuels perform best with the new engine (in case the design is by Illien). The engine development, including Illien's input, will be available for the TAG branded engines and the standard Renault-branded engines, no exclusivity, nor a separate development fork.

BTW, I still think it is strange that TR wil use Renault branded, instead of TAG Heuer branded engines and I wonder if TR will move to ExxonMobil as well.

#2783 shonguiz

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 19:54

The fact that Illien is hired through TAG Heuer, RB's partner, it looks like RB could obtain some knowledge, not available to Renault, about which fuels perform best with the new engine (in case the design is by Illien). The engine development, including Illien's input, will be available for the TAG branded engines and the standard Renault-branded engines, no exclusivity, nor a separate development fork.

Just no. Illien is not hired through RBR, Illien does bring additional dyno testing capacity and not engine R&D and RBR cannot, not in a million year have a fuel better performing than the one used by the works team.



#2784 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 19:54

It's suggested that Renault might change fuel supplier as well, moving to BP -

https://joesaward.wo...and-exxonmobil/

#2785 vonTrips

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 20:14

Just no. Illien is not hired through RBR, Illien does bring additional dyno testing capacity and not engine R&D and RBR cannot, not in a million year have a fuel better performing than the one used by the works team.

This article says Illien is hired through RB. So you seem incorrect.
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/122310

Ps. Another article descibing the nature of the Illmore/Renault cooperation:
http://m.gpupdate.ne...e-felt-in-2016/

Quote:
"Although none of Ilmor's concepts were used in a late-season upgrade, Renault has noted the benefits of linking up, and expects the impact to be felt in 2016.

"They were able to bring different concepts to the table, such as a different combustion concept, and now we will continue with them into 2016," Taffin said of Ilmor's involvement.

"We will continue to develop a lot in-house but with partners such as Ilmor we have a greater bandwidth and a richer experience and expertise.

"We did not see the full extent of the collaboration in 2015 for various reasons, but now they are under our control and we have a clearer direction we should see this more in 2016 and beyond."

Edited by vonTrips, 06 December 2016 - 20:34.


#2786 shonguiz

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 22:04

Yes and that confirms that the 2016 phase, he was contracted by them, your first article refer to the 2015 season where red bull wanted to have a second opinion on the engine and then asked Renault to work with him, they only looked at what he did but they did not take it, for 2016 they hired him directly because they had the money and it was initially done to use Illien's dynos, they never confirmed that they used his design direct input but that could change.



#2787 vonTrips

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:02

@shonquiz - that was exactly my initial question. Since they have direct access to Illien/Ilmore technology, also on the R&D level, will they adopt their technology.

Reason for questioning, besides the fact that Mario Illien is a kind of Adrian Newey on the engine level, is the status of Renault autosport department.
For a long time rumors have spread around about Renault Autosport being for sale, being closed, at least having an unknown future. With their recent entry as a F1 team these rumours were suppressed, the reluctant cooperation with Illien/Ilmore kind of reopens the rumor mill again, based on their inability to produce a solid top engine on their own strength.

I was wrong including TAG/TAG Heuer in this constellation, initially assuming Heuer was part of the TAG Group (unaware of the LVMH ownership), and TAG historicly was an investor in technology and relevant IP. Heuer likely doesn't have such interest.

Interesting fact: Toro Rosso engines have not yet been confirmed in the 2017 entry list: http://www.motorspor...ry-list-857403/
So that could still be a Renault or a TAG Heuer badged engine.

#2788 shonguiz

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 15:23

 the reluctant cooperation with Illien/Ilmore kind of reopens the rumor mill again, based on their inability to produce a solid top engine on their own strength.

They have more often than not produced top notch engines, without the help of Illien. What happened for the V6 is the direct result of the choice they made after selling to Genji. They simply wanted to do F1 on the cheap and could do it because of the engine freeze. Viry is like Enstone, they are overachievers. Because of the freeze they still managed to workout some great features (mainly for reducing consumption and better managing of gas exhausts) for their engine with less money than the others. But overachieving has a limit and when was the time to produce the uber expensive V6, they were simply short on everything, man power, money , factory machinery. They only recovered when Ghosn stopped messing around and got serious with immediate cash injection after they decided to return as a full f1 team.