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Where will Haas F1 Team finish in the 2016 WCC?


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Poll: Where will Haas F1 Team finish in the 2016 WCC? (239 member(s) have cast votes)

Where will Haas F1 Team finish in the 2016 WCC?

  1. 1st (4 votes [1.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.52%

  2. 2nd (2 votes [0.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.76%

  3. 3rd (1 votes [0.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.38%

  4. 4th (4 votes [1.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.52%

  5. 5th (3 votes [1.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.14%

  6. 6th (11 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

  7. 7th (22 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  8. 8th (56 votes [21.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.21%

  9. 9th (65 votes [24.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.62%

  10. 10th (63 votes [23.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.86%

  11. 11th (33 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

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#1 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:20

There's a new team entering F1 next season, Haas.

 

Where do you expect them to finish? Matching Mercedes or struggling with Sauber?

 

 


Edited by johnwilliamdavies, 20 July 2016 - 21:07.


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#2 noikeee

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:23

On a close 3-way fight with Sauber and ex-Manor for the last 3 rows of the grid.



#3 flymo

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:24

They are a first-year team, so the learning curve will be huge.  I voted 10th because sadly I feel like Manor/Marussia is headed for oblivion with all the top brass leaving. Would be happy to be wrong about this though.



#4 Risil

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:25

Great question. No reason they can't beat Manor and Sauber, and I'd say beating McLaren and Renault is not unpossible either.

 

Toro Rosso, Force India and Williams have been known to have off years, but after 2015 it would be most surprising for Haas to finish above that trio.

 

So I pick 7th, on the basis of experienced drivers, credible management, Ferrari assistance and reliable funding. But they could come last without scoring a point and I'd have to admit that it made sense.


Edited by Risil, 04 December 2015 - 15:27.


#5 Marklar

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:27

Multiple choice? :p

I guess between 9th-11th.

#6 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:45

Fighting the Manors & Saubers and well ahead of RB, McLaren, TR & Renault.

#7 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:47

People expect way too much from this newcomer. Weren't we all expecting a lot from Virgin and Lotus when they entered in 2010? Especially Lotus with Trulli and Kovalainen as drivers. They were miles off the pace in their first season.

 

I'd be highly surprised if Haas manages to finish higher than 10th or scoring points.



#8 messy

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:55

For some reason I think they'll beat Manor - but then pre-2010 I expected infinitely more of Lotus and Virgin than the utter tail-end 'class B' plodders they turned out to be.

 

I doubt they'll score points. It'll be them and Manor fighting for the 10th place, much as it was in the Caterham/Marussia days.

 

Their hope will be that the likes of Sauber are pulled down to their level so they can at least compete with the tail end of midfield. To be honest though I fear Grosjean will be wasted there.



#9 MustangSally

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 15:58

People expect way too much from this newcomer. Weren't we all expecting a lot from Virgin and Lotus when they entered in 2010? Especially Lotus with Trulli and Kovalainen as drivers. 

 

Not to mention Gascoigne. Aguri, Force India all started slow. However, the team appears well structured and managed and I would expect them to make the kind of progress Caterham never managed.



#10 Fastcake

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 16:08

It's hard to expect much more than Haas fighting for 10th place.



#11 Tsarwash

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 16:13

I optimistically predict them to finish ninth, in part because I expect a few of this years teams to have a further fall from grace. I suspect Manor shall be again at the rear all season, with Lotus/Renault Sauber and Haas slugging it out between themselves. I simply cannot believe that McLaren will not make some kind of progress.

#12 superden

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 16:16

Somewhere behind Mercedes.

#13 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 16:48

Too early to call. Let's see after the first test.

Battling for tenth with Manor is the goal in '16.

#14 Pontlieue

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:02

I'd say ninth. I think they'll clearly beat Manor. My prediction, or rather random guess is that they'll fight Sauber and Renault for 8th-10th.



#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:02

Fighting the Manors & Saubers and well ahead of RB, McLaren, TR & Renault.

 

Based on what? This is the 2015 result

 

1 Mercedes
2 Ferrari
3 Williams
4 Red Bull
5 Force india
6 Lotus
7 Toro Rosso
8 Sauber
9 McLaren
10 Manor

 

"Well ahead of RB"? The Renault isn't that bad. And by your wording, you think a Merc engine is going to put Manor ahead of RB, McLaren, Toro Rosso, and THE RENAUL FACTORY TEAM?



#16 thegamer23

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:06

I think that giving a fight to Toro Rosso is possibile.
I expect some decent top ten finishes, maybe not in a regular way but with sparks around the season

#17 Jonnycraig37

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:24

And by your wording, you think a Merc engine is going to put Manor ahead of RB, McLaren, Toro Rosso, and THE RENAUL FACTORY TEAM?


Mercedes engine, Williams technical support and a car they've been working on for the whole of 2015 should easily put Manor ahead of all of those IMO, at least at the start of the season. Horner said himself that they expect to be at the back at the start of next season. The Renault car will have the same engine, cut and shut into a chassis designed around a Merc PU.

#18 noikeee

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:29

Manor's gonna make a massive jump forward (it's not just the Merc engine, it's the brand new chassis that they haven't had for a while) but they're still very far behind everyone else, so they're not gonna overtake half the grid. I expect Sauber to stay still and be pretty shitty though. They had a ton of difficulties funding themselves with the driver nonsense and all, they can't possibly be in a position to improve much. That's my reasoning for saying these 2 teams and Haas will be all the same level, though it is maybe a bit optimistic for Haas who even if they're well funded, well planed, well backed from Ferrari, will have a lot less experience than these teams that have years or decades of testing and racing.



#19 Lone

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:29

1. Ferrari
2. Mercedes
3. Red Bull
4. Williams
5. McLaren
6. Renault
7. Force India
8. Toro Rosso
9. Haas
10. Sauber
11. Manor

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#20 Clatter

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:40

People expect way too much from this newcomer. Weren't we all expecting a lot from Virgin and Lotus when they entered in 2010? Especially Lotus with Trulli and Kovalainen as drivers. They were miles off the pace in their first season.

I'd be highly surprised if Haas manages to finish higher than 10th or scoring points.

I don't remember anyone expecting big things from the new teams in 2010. They had very little time from being accepted to having to be ready to race and we're trying to do so on the cheap following the FIA's flawed plans.

The only reason why Hass may do better than some in their first year is because of Ferrari's input to their car design plus Ferrari PU.

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 17:57

Mercedes engine, Williams technical support and a car they've been working on for the whole of 2015 should easily put Manor ahead of all of those IMO, at least at the start of the season. Horner said himself that they expect to be at the back at the start of next season. The Renault car will have the same engine, cut and shut into a chassis designed around a Merc PU.

 

Manor needs to find 3 seconds just to catch a McLaren Honda. That takes a bit more than some extra HP and a spending 2015 daydreaming.

 

Are we sure the 2016 Enstone car was designed with the Mercedes in mind?



#22 Wes350

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:03

We won't truly know until the first race, but...

 

I don't think fighting for 7th-8th would be too outrageous of a prediction. Nor scoring points in the first few races.

 

Although it is a new team - and they should be expected to make their share of new team gaffs, Haas has hired a lot of experienced F1 to head his program. And its not like he's hiring mechanics and crews with no F1 experience either. I can't help but feel that Haas has been the big beneficiary of the woes of caterham, manor, and lotus. 

 

Both of the Haas car designers have experience making point scoring cars in the past.

 

They have taken advantage of unlimited wind tunnel and CFD time, with technical "assistance" from Ferrari. In fact if one believes the rumor mill, other teams have been wagging their collective fingers at the Haas/Ferrari connection for some time now. I don't think that they would take notice unless they thought Ferrari and HAAS would get a competitive edge.

 

So for me it basically comes down to how big an advantage the unlimited wind tunnel and CFD testing turns out to be. Done by guys who know what they are doing and have had all year to look at other teams designs; with the CFD and wind tunnel time to see if those are things that can work for them. And on top of it they are also no doubt getting advice from Ferrari that can help them avoid design dead ends and save them a lot of effort by steering them in the right direction on certain things.

 

I think that it is in Ferraris best interest for Haas to do really well. I can't help but think that showing up TR and as much of the midfield as possible would be the goal.

 

So while I am not going to hold my breath, I am much more optimistic than some.

 

But I could also be totally wrong and they have made a mess of the whole thing and could be struggling to fight with Manor all year...


Edited by Wes350, 04 December 2015 - 18:06.


#23 Cirio

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:04

1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Williams
4. Red Bull
5. Force India
6. Renault
7. Toro Rosso
8. McLaren
9. Haas
10. Sauber
11. Manor


Edited by Cirio, 04 December 2015 - 18:05.


#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:06


Although it is a new team - and they should be expected to make their share of new team gaffs, Haas has hired a lot of experienced F1 to head his program. And its not like he's hiring mechanics and crews with no F1 experience either. I can't help but feel that Haas has been the big beneficiary of the woes of caterham, manor, and lotus. 

 

Both of the Haas car designers have experience making point scoring cars in the past.

 


So for me it basically comes down to how big an advantage the unlimited wind tunnel and CFD testing turns out to be. Done by guys who know what they are doing and have had all year to look at other teams designs; with the CFD and wind tunnel time to see if those are things that can work for them. And on top of it they are also no doubt getting advice from Ferrari that can help them avoid design dead ends and save them a lot of effort by steering them in the right direction on certain things.

 

 

Didnt Virgin and Lotus-Caterham have those things? Those teams didn't struggle because of a lack of smart people, or lack of trying. They lacked power. $$$$$$$$$$.

 

I think Haas will do well because they'll have a better, budget, at least on paper. But given how big the budgets are of the other teams, I don't expect them to be competitive with them. Certainly not from the start.



#25 Wes350

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:31

Well... Virgin shot itself in the foot by trying the all CFD route. And Caterham-marussia/manor ran to the grid so fast and started their cars so late, I don't think that they could have done a better job of self-sabotage.

 

And they did have to form their teams from scratch, where as Haas, while technically building from scratch, has been able to pick off a lot of good people.

 

That and we don't really know what kind of budget Haas is really throwing at this thing yet... certainly not top team levels,  but maybe TR budget levels???

 

But like I said - I see lots of reasons to be much more optimistic than most, but this is F1 and I could also be so very totally wrong.



#26 Francesc

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:35

Probably just behind McLaren.



#27 Cloxxki

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:35

Manor needs to find 3 seconds just to catch a McLaren Honda. That takes a bit more than some extra HP and a spending 2015 daydreaming.

 

Manor was WAY off the speed traps compared to McLaren, I think? They should be expected, even with poor cornering speeds and traction, to be in the league that Lotus, Force India and Williams were alongside Mercedes. Which means, WAY ahead of where McLaren were. If McLaren can claim it's mostly horsepower and deployment holding them back, then Manor can make a 3 seconds improvement on PU alone. Then there is the issue of their chassis. It was a terrible conversion of their 2014 car, to be legal. They are making a 2016 car around the Mercedes PU now. Much different performance equation.
While I think McLaren are likely to make up 1 second on chassis and half a second or even a whole second on PU, I see Manor making up 3 for the PU, and 1.5-2 seconds for the chassis. The rest of the grid will basically make it's typical advancement, say 1-1.5 seconds? Less for Enstone. More for Toro Rosso. If in 2016 the Mercedes is one second faster than Honda, perhaps like Renault were this year, Manor could be right on McLaren's tail. One second behind them, is just that, in the grand scheme of things.

On Haas then. So they'll source all they can from Ferrari, and otherwise purchase what else they need themselves. They have had plenty of time (and helpful whispers from Ferrari) to design a chassis. How much behind Ferrari should they be, really? Sure, it's a first year, but how far is Toro Rosso behind Redbull? A second roughtly, but on average probably less. Ferrari is futher up the road, so even if Haas loses more to them than TR to RB, they could be alongside the likes of Toro Rosso and Enstone and Force India.  And they will just be improving. I voted 6th, which is obviously on the optimistic side. Haas doesn't fool around though. I expect them to be a lot less jolly in their business than Manor.



#28 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 18:52

I don't remember anyone expecting big things from the new teams in 2010. They had very little time from being accepted to having to be ready to race and we're trying to do so on the cheap following the FIA's flawed plans.

The only reason why Hass may do better than some in their first year is because of Ferrari's input to their car design plus Ferrari PU.

Not big things no, but many believed them to be close to the teams at the back of the grid, which they never achieved.

 

True, they have a lot of Ferrari backing, but that doesn't give any guarantees. In the end, the chassis is still built by Dallara, who's last built chassis in F1 wasn't exactly a succes.

 

I hope I'm wrong of course, I don't want to see Grosjean waste his F1 career like Kovalainen and Glock did.



#29 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 20:19

They should be expected, even with poor cornering speeds and traction, to be in the league that Lotus, Force India and Williams were alongside Mercedes. Which means, WAY ahead of where McLaren were. If McLaren can claim it's mostly horsepower and deployment holding them back, then Manor can make a 3 seconds improvement on PU alone. Then there is the issue of their chassis. It was a terrible conversion of their 2014 car, to be legal. They are making a 2016 car around the Mercedes PU now. Much different performance equation.
While I think McLaren are likely to make up 1 second on chassis and half a second or even a whole second on PU, I see Manor making up 3 for the PU, and 1.5-2 seconds for the chassis. The rest of the grid will basically make it's typical advancement, say 1-1.5 seconds? Less for Enstone. More for Toro Rosso. If in 2016 the Mercedes is one second faster than Honda, perhaps like Renault were this year, Manor could be right on McLaren's tail. One second behind them, is just that, in the grand scheme of things.

On Haas then. So they'll source all they can from Ferrari, and otherwise purchase what else they need themselves. They have had plenty of time (and helpful whispers from Ferrari) to design a chassis. How much behind Ferrari should they be, really? Sure, it's a first year, but how far is Toro Rosso behind Redbull? A second roughtly, but on average probably less. Ferrari is futher up the road, so even if Haas loses more to them than TR to RB, they could be alongside the likes of Toro Rosso and Enstone and Force India.  And they will just be improving. I voted 6th, which is obviously on the optimistic side. Haas doesn't fool around though. I expect them to be a lot less jolly in their business than Manor.

 

I'm not sure there's 3 seconds a lap in going from an old spec Ferrari to a current spec Mercedes. Even with the design advantages. Given they've been on Ferraris for a few years now so could design around them? Manor have no money. They'll improve because yes they're getting a better engine. But they still don't have any money. And there's a pretty direct relationship between speed and money. Sure, sometimes people screw up big budgets. But no one gets more out of the money than the money can possibly provide. If you're lucky you get a Force India or Sauber situation where it's nice and efficient and they get great bang-for-the-buck. But they're both around where their budgets should place them, and since Manor are really really poor, I expect their performance to also be poor.



#30 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 20:37

I voted for 9th place. Manor are kind of lost IMO and I am almost sure that Haas can challenge Sauber and eventually beat them. Sauber have experience and newly recruited Mark Smith and Haas have newly recruited Ferrari. Se a close competition between them is a possibility.



#31 Lord_Shaitan

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 20:51

1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Red Bull
4. Williams
5. McLaren
6. Force India
7. Renault

8. Haas
9. Toro Rosso
10. Sauber
11. Manor 

 

I think that Haas might be a little surprise for many people. "Might be" are the key words though ;) . The list above is based on the assumption they will put all the things together at the start of the season. It'd be a tremendous effort to make it possible. In spite of that, mid/late season fallback will be inevitable IMO. So their position in WCC race will highly depend on how much points they'll extract from the couple of first races.



#32 noikeee

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 21:21

1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Red Bull
4. Williams
5. McLaren
6. Force India
7. Renault

8. Haas
9. Toro Rosso
10. Sauber
11. Manor 

 

I think that Haas might be a little surprise for many people. "Might be" are the key words though ;) . The list above is based on the assumption they will put all the things together at the start of the season. It'd be a tremendous effort to make it possible. In spite of that, mid/late season fallback will be inevitable IMO. So their position in WCC race will highly depend on how much points they'll extract from the couple of first races.

Shouldn't it be the other way around, coming better as the season goes on? They've never tested, ever. Whereas Sauber has got data on their F1 cars since 1993. Sauber are actually one case of an extremely surprising competitive debut back then, but they could run zillions of laps according to the rules at the time. Now Haas will have what, 8, 10 days? Assuming the car works at all and they don't waste full days in the garage.

 

I don't think this was the main problem with Manor/Caterham/HRT, the main problem was that their business model was built for a fraction of the budget they eventually would have to raise if they wanted to compete at all with the others, but the lack of testing was a big factor too in their lack of competitivity.


Edited by noikeee, 04 December 2015 - 21:23.


#33 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 22:12

I see this has turned into the Manor bashing thread again.

#34 danmills

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 01:53

6th. Point sniffers.

#35 Volcano70

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 03:04

8-11th, depends on Mclarens performance next year.



#36 Rjpscr

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 03:35

9th just ahead of sauber and Manor.



#37 wonk123

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 07:43

Manor needs to find 3 seconds just to catch a McLaren Honda. That takes a bit more than some extra HP and a spending 2015 daydreaming.

 

Are we sure the 2016 Enstone car was designed with the Mercedes in mind?

 

Lotus mentioned only a couple of weeks ago, they were doing parallel development with both Merc and Renault engines, so I assume the design will be at least a little compromised



#38 loki

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 08:12

I'm going out on a limb and saying definitely top 11...



#39 Disgrace

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 09:34

I think that giving a fight to Toro Rosso is possibile.
I expect some decent top ten finishes, maybe not in a regular way but with sparks around the season

 

No chance. The latest Toro Rosso challenger began the season with easily enough pace to reach Q3. Unless Gutierrez manages to be a lot less rubbish than he was at Sauber, Grosjean will be fighting Sainz and Verstappen by himself. Given how much those two should develop combined with an improved engine, they should be leagues ahead. James Key would have to drop the ball badly if Haas can compete with them.



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#40 BRG

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 17:41

Grosjean will be fighting Sainz and Verstappen by himself. 

He did pretty well at that this year, more or less singlehandedly placing Lotus above TR.



#41 Nathan

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 17:57

How is a team with a car effectively designed by Ferrari, comparable to a Caterham/HRT/Virgin startup?  HAAS is pretty much starting with a minimum 2015 Ferrari chassis.  Operational and QC gaffs aside, they surely will finish ahead of Sauber?

 

I vote 9th ahead of Sauber and Manor, challenging Renault and Torro Rossa for 8th.


Edited by Nathan, 05 December 2015 - 17:58.


#42 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 17:57

Last or second to last. Likely without any points.

#43 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 17:59

How is a team with a car effectively designed by Ferrari, comparable to a Caterham/HRT/Virgin startup?  HAAS is pretty much starting with a minimum 2015 Ferrari chassis.  Operational and QC gaffs aside, they surely will finish ahead of Sauber?

Where can this be verified? 



#44 Marklar

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:06

Ralf Bach was reporting about that

 

 

It sounds crazy, but it is likely true: On the 31st october Haas will fire 70 employees, who will start to work again on 1st november at Ferrari. These 70 people have developed - covered by the name of Dallara - the Haas car for 2016, which will be more or less the copy of the 2016 Ferrari.

http://f1-insider.co...rrari-mit-haas/



#45 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:10

How is that not Spygate Part Deux  :lol:



#46 automovelbrilhante

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:16

Where can this be verified? 

I think it's in Plato's Hippias Major, but I could be wrong. Sorry, just a phase.  :blush:

I hope it's true, though... and Kurt's given a tryout. :love:



#47 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:17

Ralf Bach was reporting about that

 

http://f1-insider.co...rrari-mit-haas/

"the Haas car for 2016, which will be more or less the copy of the 2016 Ferrari."  :rotfl: 



#48 Marklar

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:20

I guess he got the years wrong, otherwise it might be possible that it has parts of the 2016 Ferrari (these which are allowed to be produced by others), because then the cooperation would make sense for Ferrari with regards to the wind tunnel use....



#49 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:26

From Dieter Rencken
 
http://plus.autospor...um/feature/6497

This philosophy of outsourcing whatever componentry is permitted by regulations, then internally "adding value to the basic package" - as Haas COO Joe Custer terms it - provides the blueprint for Haas F1.

In addition to the complete engine, transmission and electronics package, Ferrari is also supplying "all the suspension, all non-listed parts" to Haas, explains Gunther Steiner, the former Ford rally and Jaguar F1/Red Bull Racing technical director who devised the programme over a three-year period before persuading machine tool magnate Gene Haas to back the project.

"You can look at appendix six of the sporting regulations*, and say 'this is what Haas gets from Ferrari'. The things we have to make by regulation, and we will make, are chassis monocoque and what they call 'wet' surfaces - everything outside the car, the bodywork, including radiators. This is what we design ourselves and we make ourselves.

"The wings are part of the bodywork. We have to make the [exhaust] tailpipe ourselves; you can go to a certain point, then have to make your own."

Despite Steiner majority-owning a composite business (Fibreworks) in Charlotte, composites will initially be sourced in Europe "to ensure we establish a good relationship with people. In [Charlotte] we're making pit equipment, and we've started that process already. We also machine [metal] parts for the windtunnel model, then ship them over."

Ferrari sourcing means suspension mounting points will be as per Maranello, as will be brakes, suspension uprights, pedal box, steering rack and fuel cell.

The monocoque will be very similar to Ferrari's but, stresses composites expert Steiner, "the trick in the chassis is mainly in lay-up, how composites are made, how structures are made. It's not only the geometry. The geometry is obvious: if you've got the battery box and fuel tank from Ferrari you can't do much different. But it's completely legal."

"We get the mounting points, we get the steering rack, we need to bolt it to a chassis. If we want the same suspension, we'd better put it in the same place, otherwise it won't work. It'll look similar [to Ferrari], yes."



#50 Bloggsworth

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:38

3 people voted for 1st - That'll be Haas and his 2 drivers then...