3983 replies to this topic

[FrontWing]

at the very least they should have solved their deployment issues, thats what makes the big difference, if their ice is behind by 50 or so ps, so be it.
I have to say, my worry is they continued with their naive approach and again made the compressor+turbine to small, inefficient, or that they compromised the layout to much due to the size zero concept. But im looking forward to be proven wrong. Regarding Arai saying, they only have two test sessions. Well either the design is correct/improved or not, 2 or 4 test sessions wont change that a bit.
Also Im still baffled they seem to be walking so much in the dark, they dont have better simulation tools by now, if not put it in a ****ing civic and go around suzuka

I'm sure it was said a few pages back that they are going with the same size compressor as there 2015 merc PU. The fact that it's running at 100k rpm confirms that. I think the head ache they are having is still tying to put it in the V of the ICE and the heat issues that entails.

[TakataDomeNSX]

So looks like they have made progress but they believe that it is not significant enough to beat Mercedes. They are hoping that the improvements will help them get into top 10 consistently in the fly away races and from European leg they can then think about brining performance upgrades to catch Mercedes. If they are not in the Top 10 in the fly away races, then the prospects of winning a single race or getting a podium this year is gone. Not a very positive read I would say about where things stand. But given the challenges they faced last year, I think he is being realistic.

 

If this is true, I wonder what Alonso would be thinking.

 

 

Well, we absolutely despise them when they talk up their chances up, so ...

[shonguiz]

Seems Rd's 2016 memo of underpromise and over deliver is really being acted upon. Strange.

[UraNage]

Honda and Ferrari both admitted that they have done some hardware changes to their power unit and guess what? we have rumors suggesting both have encountered reliability problems.

i actually have a feeling ferrari will decline

[FullThrottleF1]

McLaren fans

 

[pup]

Fernando is checking the dyno tests in person.

 

They should also send the results to Kanye for analysis.

[shonguiz]

They should also send the results to Kanye for analysis.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

The power unit surely has been on dyno for sometime. I don't think McLarenHonda suddenly realized that "oh reliability problems are happening" and tell Marca just when preseason tests are going to start in less than a week.

 

As Muramasa wrote in his post, Arai has mentioned that reliability and performance are not where they want to be.

 

I don't deny probable reliability problems but I don't think Marca has written the article based on true information. Marca is just throwing the most probable scenarios in their article in the heat of preseason start.

[muramasa]

So looks like they have made progress but they believe that it is not significant enough to beat Mercedes. They are hoping that the improvements will help them get into top 10 consistently in the fly away races and from European leg they can then think about brining performance upgrades to catch Mercedes. If they are not in the Top 10 in the fly away races, then the prospects of winning a single race or getting a podium this year is gone. Not a very positive read I would say about where things stand. But given the challenges they faced last year, I think he is being realistic.

 

If this is true, I wonder what Alonso would be thinking.

he's just saying what he's been saying since forever, get into Q3 and make regular then there's next step. Also some things you have to try it on track (why there's testing? why flow-vis and aero sensor? why so sensitive about policing extra testing?). It's just logical, neither pessimistic (or not positive) nor optimistic/positive.

 

Is this how things get misunderstood between languages - breaking down and breakups meaning different things in context?

noooo that's just my translation,   it could be "sort out" "put in order" or whatever. i dont know what machine translate do but doubt they put that jp article (dated 12 Feb) into machine translate to write that.

 

That pretty much confirms what I've been hearing about their disappointment with the PU's power output. Fair do's, Arai is being very honest.

At least there's plenty of tokens and development potential to play with this season.

whose disappointment? they said nothing such detail about 2016 PU.

 

That's the turbo running at 100k rpm, not the engine.Haven't they gone with a larger compressor this year though which would mean that they'd only need 100k rpm like other manufacturers? This confirms the increase in turbo size.

I'd heard elsewhere that they've got the Ers working somewhat but are still disappointed with the overall power output of the PU.

Not long too wait for definite answers.

it confirms nothing.

Arai said comp size/capacity would be bigger at around Mexico (Nov 2015) then this "maybe Honda running MGU-H at near max rpm of 125k so next year will be like 100k or below" talk has started in here or by some articles, not vice versa. So marca's story is nothing but copy&paste of this analytical discussion that has been going on for the whole 3 months. Also he's been saying many times that comp capacity too small was the issue and would be bigger for the next but overall keep concept etc, but we know nothing about what they are actually up to nor what will happen.

Same goes for the rest too: turbos breaking up on dyno? yeah experimenting and breaking it up is exactly the whole point of doing dyno. Overheating problems? lol be more creative. Some think it's fixable some think structure issue in turbo? Oh that's terrible. Anyone keeping the track of this matter are aware that Honda issue is about ERS/deployment/ turbo integration as Arai himself been telling so it's so easy to write stories like that.

Edited by muramasa, 16 February 2016 - 16:55.

[Mc_Silver]

I don't expect our car to be podium finisher from the first race. I expect to see gradual improvements throughout the year. Finishing in top 10 position for first few races is realistic one. I think from European gp onwards they'll be able to improve a lot will close the gap against Mercedes and Ferrari and become 3rd fastest team before summer break. After summer break they'll be able to chase podium with further improvements on PU. So guys please don't expect too much improvement this early otherwise disappointment becomes much worse than it should be.

 

#BelieveInMcLaren!

[damager21]

In all the good and bad things I read every day, what I really appreciate is that both McLaren and Honda are not trying to raise expectations of fans. This is one area where they went wrong last year. Let car and drivers do all the talking on track. Top 10 finish consistently would be a huge leap for a team which had a horrific 2015.

[chhatra]

Let's not get too carried away with the engine.

McLaren still have the huge task of making sure they have the fastest chassis too.

[AustinF1]

The power unit surely has been on dyno for sometime. I don't think McLarenHonda suddenly realized that "oh reliability problems are happening" and tell Marca just when preseason tests are going to start in less than a week.

 

As Muramasa wrote in his post, Arai has mentioned that reliability and performance are not where they want to be.

 

I don't deny probable reliability problems but I don't think Marca has written the article based on true information. Marca is just throwing the most probable scenarios in their article in the heat of preseason start.

Yep. I for one will wait to see what it does on the track.

[Joseki]

Let's not get too carried away with the engine.

McLaren still have the huge task of making sure they have the fastest chassis too.

I don't think having the best chassis of all is what will matter next year. They need to confirm their new concept and the new working policy at Woking, I think they need to clearly improve compared to last year, bring some updates and if they perform as expected they can fully switch so 2017 around Silverstone maybe.

The engine is more important at the moment for two reasons, it was the weakest part of the car and it will stay pretty much the same for the next 5 seasons, so they really need to get it right as soon as possible.

[chhatra]

I don't think having the best chassis of all is what will matter next year. They need to confirm their new concept and the new working policy at Woking, I think they need to clearly improve compared to last year, bring some updates and if they perform as expected they can fully switch so 2017 around Silverstone maybe.

The engine is more important at the moment for two reasons, it was the weakest part of the car and it will stay pretty much the same for the next 5 seasons, so they really need to get it right as soon as possible.

If McLaren AND Honda have decided that a smaller engine is needed to have the best chassis, then the onus is on McLaren to produce it.

I personally think the car will be up there as the second or third fastest. With Merc & Ferrari still ahead.

[FrontWing]

he's just saying what he's been saying since forever, get into Q3 and make regular then there's next step. Also some things you have to try it on track (why there's testing? why flow-vis and aero sensor? why so sensitive about policing extra testing?). It's just logical, neither pessimistic (or not positive) nor optimistic/positive.

noooo that's just my translation, it could be "sort out" "put in order" or whatever. i dont know what machine translate do but doubt they put that jp article (dated 12 Feb) into machine translate to write that.

whose disappointment? they said nothing such detail about 2016 PU.

it confirms nothing.
Arai said comp size/capacity would be bigger at around Mexico (Nov 2015) then this "maybe Honda running MGU-H at near max rpm of 125k so next year will be like 100k or below" talk has started in here or by some articles, not vice versa. So marca's story is nothing but copy&paste of this analytical discussion that has been going on for the whole 3 months. Also he's been saying many times that comp capacity too small was the issue and would be bigger for the next but overall keep concept etc, but we know nothing about what they are actually up to nor what will happen.
Same goes for the rest too: turbos breaking up on dyno? yeah experimenting and breaking it up is exactly the whole point of doing dyno. Overheating problems? lol be more creative. Some think it's fixable some think structure issue in turbo? Oh that's terrible. Anyone keeping the track of this matter are aware that Honda issue is about ERS/deployment/ turbo integration as Arai himself been telling so it's so easy to write stories like that.

Why so defensive? It's not always a conspiracy to misrepresent Honda you know. Arai is saying himself that performance isn't where they want it.

And as for the compressor, you just said yourself that Arai has said it will be of bigger capacity. If thats the case then they won't have to run it as quick as last year, hence the 100k rpm.

I should be more creative about overheating issues? Sorry buddy but it is an issue they'll face with where they are trying to house the turbo. It's just the nature of the concept they've gone with, it doesn't take a genius to work out the efficiency issues they'll have with all that heat in a confined place, and trying remove that heat effectively. I'm not saying they haven't solved those issues though.

Edited by FrontWing, 16 February 2016 - 18:34.

[muramasa]

Why so defensive? It's not always a conspiracy to misrepresent Honda you know. Arai is saying himself that performance isn't where they want it.

And as for the compressor, you just said yourself that Arai has said it will be of bigger capacity. If thats the case then they won't have to run it quick as last year, hence the 100k rpm.

I should be more creative about overheating issues? Sorry buddy but it is an issue they'll face with where they are trying to house the turbo. It's just the nature of the concept they've gone with, it doesn't take a genius to work out the efficiency issues they'll have with all that heat in a confined place, and trying remove that heat effectively. I'm not saying they haven't solved those issues though.

Was it you that created overheating issue story? I thought it was marca.

I dont know why you dont get it. all I'm saying is marca (or whatever other european press write) is groundless, some are copy&paste of 3 months old forum discussion, some such easy guess story hence not credible. Some seem to take it, believe those as if facts to confirm sth and treat those as solid foundation for thoughts but that is not appropriate which is what I'm pointing out.

[sdg]

The part about FA personally investigating the PU issues on the dyno made me smile.

[FrontWing]

I said 'I think' they could still be having problems with overheating. It's just me hypothesising, I'm allowed to do that you know. It's one of the fundamental issues with their innovative compact design. If they overcome it, or have overcome it, it'll definitely give them something over the competition.

Also, I think it's a bit arrogant to write off the the European press. I don't think anyone takes everything that is written at face value, but we as fans like to take snippets and whispers from here and there and idly speculate. It's just part of being a fan and being in a public forum.

[RedOne]

Every year these conveniently timed 'articles' arrive as interest and anticipation is peaking for any scrap of news and every year people gobble it up. Silly rumours like this is nothing but guess work from silly papers.

Why bother even reading them with only one week left to go anyway.

[FrontWing]

The part about FA personally investigating the PU issues on the dyno made me smile.

Alonso - "no no, still a gp2 engine. Agghhh!"

[Joseki]

The part about FA personally investigating the PU issues on the dyno made me smile.

[UraNage]

 

I said 'I think' they could still be having problems with overheating. It's just me hypothesising, I'm allowed to do that you know. It's one of the fundamental issues with their innovative compact design. If they overcome it, or have overcome it, it'll definitely give them something over the competition.

Also, I think it's a bit arrogant to write off the the European press. I don't think anyone takes everything that is written at face value, but we as fans like to take snippets and whispers from here and there and idly speculate. It's just part of being a fan and being in a public forum.

you should read what marca and daily mail , etc ... write during the transfer window then 

[FrontWing]

you should read what marca and daily mail , etc ... write during the transfer window then

Haha, so true.

[Maustinsj]

The part about FA personally investigating the PU issues on the dyno made me smile.

Reminded me of news stories about Kim Jong Un inspecting things and then giving his "divine guidance" on how to improve by 150%.

Edited by Maustinsj, 16 February 2016 - 19:17.

[Quickshifter]

In less than a week we will all find out as to the veracity of the information being distributed everywhere. It is a matter of personal preference to believe what one wants to cos in my opinion after the difficult start Honda had last year they would be taking extra precautions to make sure no information is leaked out as far as the development of power unit is concerned. What i go by is the statements by Arai. What i find hilarious is how some media outlets are saying that Honda have made performance gains but are having reliability issues. Now doesn't this look more like a calculated guess where when you increase performance you are bound to face reliability issues at the beginning. When you increase performance you are bound to face overheating issues in such a tightly packaged engine.

 

Whether Honda are facing issues on the dyno or not is up for anyone's guess work at the moment. Nobody is trying to make a sensible prediction. Everyone is out there looking for the home run. One day we have a 223 bhp gain claim and the other day we have a engines blowing up on dyno claim. Going by the actual facts Honda had developed the internal combustion engine nicely so i would be surprised if there are issues there. Honda identified pretty early as to the changes they have to fix the deployment issues. They have been working on it for a long time.Finally to make sure the gains made are reliable not only dyno runs but also track testing is needed. So by the time of the European rounds we will see the true potential of the 2016 power unit but if there are any major reliability issues they will be apparent in Barcelona testing itself.

 

Honda are confident that they can fix the deployment issues without moving the compressor out of the cylinder banks. Now time will tell if they are right or wrong but if they are right then i say Mclaren Honda will have a well balanced package in terms of engine and chassis/aero. There are 32 tokens which  can be used till the end of the 2016 season so even if there are issues Honda at least have the opportunity to fix them through the season. My personal instinct is that Honda will be ahead of Renault as a minimum by the time the season kicks off. Now i don't claim to be an insider but Honda have only one works team in Mclaren to put all their focus on and i am confident this will make a big difference. It would be unfair on Honda to expect them to wipe out the deficit  to Ferrari or Mercedes in such a short time. Within a week we will know if the major reliability issues that various outlets are claiming are true or not.

Edited by Quickshifter, 16 February 2016 - 19:29.

[Lemans]

It's over. Forget it. They should just abandon this car and prepare for 2017.

[chhatra]

It's over. Forget it. They should just abandon this car and prepare for 2017.

You're aiming too high my friend.

2022 is the one.

Verstappen champion in a McLaren Audi.

Edited by chhatra, 16 February 2016 - 19:49.

[FrontWing]

It's over. Forget it. They should just abandon this car and prepare for 2017.

I know you're joking, but you bring up a good point. Will this season see teams abandoning the campaign early if they aren't in the championship fight. A bit like the tail end of 2013. The most important thing for Mclaren Honda is that the PU works well by the end of the season so they've got something to build the new regs car around in 2017.

Edited by FrontWing, 16 February 2016 - 19:54.

[F1Champion]

I said 'I think' they could still be having problems with overheating. It's just me hypothesising, I'm allowed to do that you know. It's one of the fundamental issues with their innovative compact design. If they overcome it, or have overcome it, it'll definitely give them something over the competition.

Also, I think it's a bit arrogant to write off the the European press. I don't think anyone takes everything that is written at face value, but we as fans like to take snippets and whispers from here and there and idly speculate. It's just part of being a fan and being in a public forum.

 

I just can't accept these types of issues. I had issues with Honda not knowing anything about their PU before putting in the back of the McLaren with all of the chaos that ensued and I can't believe that with the knowledge, testing rigs, dynos etc that stuff like overheating isn't something that has been solved in the factory before it even gets to a McLaren. All of the issues with reliability, deployment, cooling should all be simulated very well with today's technology and the data that they have with a whole season behind them. There aren't any excuses for quality control now.

[Muzzyf1]

What's the chance of a newspaper getting there hands on such highly sensitive info?
About as much as buckleys and none.
Just fanciful stupid journalism.

We will not know anything until the test.

Every year is the same bs

[FrontWing]

I just can't accept these types of issues. I had issues with Honda not knowing anything about their PU before putting in the back of the McLaren with all of the chaos that ensued and I can't believe that with the knowledge, testing rigs, dynos etc that stuff like overheating isn't something that has been solved in the factory before it even gets to a McLaren. All of the issues with reliability, deployment, cooling should all be simulated very well with today's technology and the data that they have with a whole season behind them. There aren't any excuses for quality control now.

It's not easy. Even with all the simulation tools they have available it still comes second to mounting it in a car and taking it on track.

[Maustinsj]

It's just testing, people!!!

 

 

Am I first in?

 

 

If so, I reserve the right to bonus Internet points every time it's mentioned during next week. 

[LeClerc]

It's over. Forget it. They should just abandon this car and prepare for 2017.

 

 

Mmmmmh, that's right. They will tank bad 

Edited by LeClerc, 16 February 2016 - 20:28.

[FrontWing]

What's the chance of a newspaper getting there hands on such highly sensitive info?
About as much as buckleys and none.
Just fanciful stupid journalism.

We will not know anything until the test.

Every year is the same bs

I'm not saying any of its true, but come on. I know it's sensitive information but we're not talking top secret government records, it's formula one. People talk and word gets out sometimes.

Edited by FrontWing, 16 February 2016 - 20:25.

[dave34m]

I don't expect our car to be podium finisher from the first race. I expect to see gradual improvements throughout the year. Finishing in top 10 position for first few races is realistic one. I think from European gp onwards they'll be able to improve a lot will close the gap against Mercedes and Ferrari and become 3rd fastest team before summer break. After summer break they'll be able to chase podium with further improvements on PU. So guys please don't expect too much improvement this early otherwise disappointment becomes much worse than it should be.

 

#BelieveInMcLaren!

Yep, pretty much what everyone was saying at the start of last year

[Muzzyf1]

I'm not saying any of its true, but come on. I know it's sensitive information but we're not talking top secret government records, it's formula one. People talk and word gets out sometimes.

Your talking about Honda here mate these people are very secretive and i don't see how such info could leak so easily .

Honda will not make the same mistake if they do they are doomed and won't be back for 2017 they'll disappear from f1 forever

[Muzzyf1]

Don't forget they also said honda found over 250hp too lol

[muramasa]

What's the chance of a newspaper getting there hands on such highly sensitive info?
About as much as buckleys and none.
Just fanciful stupid journalism.

We will not know anything until the test.

Every year is the same bs

exactly, bigger turbo and MGU-H rpm talk is 3 months old discussion (starting point being very Arai remark), heating (so easy to say), breaking on dyno (err, dyno is where you test a lot and break things a lot), etc all just such easy guesswork.

If I say you will eat something and go to toilet and pop around shops tomorrow, I will be absolutely spot on, but does that make me right? No.

You take whatever mark sheet style exam about whatever subject or profession that you are not familiar with at all and you can still score some 20%, but does that mean you knew the 20% that you got right? No.

It's the same.

Some thing those media are writing may turn out to sort of match what will actually happen or be known later but it does not make them right at all, it's just lucky hit.

What will happen will happen and that's absolutely nothing to do with their writings.

I seriously doubt the literacy of those who take/believe speculative things those media like marca, omnicourse etc are propagating.

[FrontWing]

Your talking about Honda here mate these people are very secretive and i don't see how such info could leak so easily .

Honda will not make the same mistake if they do they are doomed and won't be back for 2017 they'll disappear from f1 forever

Arai has said they still have issues to solve and that the performance is lacking quite a bit on the 2016 pu. Plus mclaren will know what's going on and rumors may leak from there.

Honda won't pull out for 2017. Even if this year isn't great relative to the rest of the field, I expect them to have improved compared to last year and develop the Pu through 2016 so that its ready and competitive for 2017.

Edited by FrontWing, 16 February 2016 - 21:02.

[argiriano]

...

 

Honda are confident that they can fix the deployment issues without moving the compressor out of the cylinder banks. Now time will tell if they are right or wrong but if they are right then i say Mclaren Honda will have a well balanced package in terms of engine and chassis/aero. There are 32 tokens which  can be used till the end of the 2016 season so even if there are issues Honda at least have the opportunity to fix them through the season.

...

Well, if Honda start the season with 32  remaining tokens I`ll be hugely disappointed. 

 

But hey, we may bet on how many tokens they will have at the start of the season until testing begins.

I`m starting with 12. 

 

[FrontWing]

exactly, bigger turbo and MGU-H rpm talk is 3 months old discussion (starting point being very Arai remark), heating (so easy to say), breaking on dyno (err, dyno is where you test a lot and break things a lot), etc all just such easy guesswork.
If I say you will eat something and go to toilet and pop around shops tomorrow, I will be absolutely spot on, but does that make me right? No.
You take whatever mark sheet style exam about whatever subject or profession that you are not familiar with at all and you can still score some 20%, but does that mean you knew the 20% that you got right? No.
It's the same.
Some thing those media are writing may turn out to sort of match what will actually happen or be known later but it does not make them right at all, it's just lucky hit.
What will happen will happen and that's absolutely nothing to do with their writings.
I seriously doubt the literacy of those who take/believe speculative things those media like marca, omnicourse etc are propagating.

Lol, you really don't like/trust f1 journalists do you. It's all a bit of fun at the end of the day.

So even if things turn out to be true, you still won't believe any of it because all f1 journalism is guess work? Getting a bit 'tin foil hat' time now.

[Kimiraikkonen]

I don't expect our car to be podium finisher from the first race. I expect to see gradual improvements throughout the year. Finishing in top 10 position for first few races is realistic one. I think from European gp onwards they'll be able to improve a lot will close the gap against Mercedes and Ferrari and become 3rd fastest team before summer break. After summer break they'll be able to chase podium with further improvements on PU. So guys please don't expect too much improvement this early otherwise disappointment becomes much worse than it should be.

#BelieveInMcLaren!

Well said mate. #Believe #EarlyDays to say how good will be the new "Macca Beast"

#KeepTheFaith

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

There are 32 tokens which  can be used till the end of the 2016 season so even if there are issues Honda at least have the opportunity to fix them through the season. 

 

 

 

I thought these are required to homologate the changes they want to use at the start of the season, such as the bigger compressor?  They will not be available over the season since they will need to use most of these tokens immediately to fix all the major problems of 2015 unit.

[Lazy]

Spanish nwspaper said in few words "Quick and powered but it brokes".
 

Nice

[Kimiraikkonen]

Nice

Im sorry for my english, i mean fast and powerfull but breaks.

[chhatra]

Someone needs to tell Honda about dried Weetabix, then it will be fast and powerful, as well as never breaking.

[Vettelari]

For the good of the sport, I hope that McLaren can be more competitive this season. However, I do not expect some kind of miraculous turn around. Best case will be competing with Force India & Renault for 6th in the WCC, IMO. I don't see them ahead of Merc, Ferrari, RBR, Toro Rosso, or Williams in 2016. That type of improvement is hard to find in a single off-season. People refer to what Ferrari did last off-season, but time-wise McLaren were so far behind that if they improve as much as Ferrari did they will still be a mid field team. Finishing the season ahead of Sauber, HAAS, & Manor, mixing it up with Renault & FI, & occasionally beating the TRs & Williams should be viewed as an extremely successful season. Anything better than that would be a miracle. I fear that the people predicting they'll be battling for podiums by seasons end are due for another disappointing season. All in my COMPLETELY WORTHLESS opinion, as always. I hope that I am wrong and we see McLaren end their 5 year slump, but 2017 seems to be a more realistic target.

[jstrains]

Spanish nwspaper said in few words "Quick and powerfull but breaks".
 

 

Reminds me of Kimi and 2005 McLaren. If they can improve the reliability through the year, I will take it

[Braai52]

It's over. Forget it. They should just abandon this car and prepare for 2017.

 

.........!