3983 replies to this topic

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

It is going to be very easy for Honda blamers to mount even more attack. I still believe McLaren need Honda to be successful. There is no other way although I don't know what are the problems and what are the fixes or how long will it take to be fully competitive.

[Frankbullitt]

Started off well and didn't end so well.

 

Welcome to TESTING!!!!!!!!!!

[shonguiz]

Out of interest how many members work in an engineering field?

I do.

[MirNyet]

Let's see what next week brings before we collectively start throwing each other off the cliff,

[MastaKink]

Good first couple of days, a so-so day and a nightmare day to finish off.  On to next week then.

[RedBaron]

...Meanwhile in the Mercedes W07 thread

 

[djf1]

They spend millions upon millions both McLaren and Honda. How can they be THAT incompetent? Even Manor did better than them...  that does not bode well for their car business or technical expertise reputation either. Some serious changes need to be made. No excuses really with all the technical capability and man power both companies have,

 

Just feel sorry for the drivers, wasting their talent in a hopeless organization.

[Stephane]

So, we're doomed, right ?

[RedBaron]

They spend millions upon millions both McLaren and Honda. How can they be THAT incompetent? Even Manor did better than them...  that does not bode well for their car business or technical expertise reputation either. Some serious changes need to be made. No excuses really with all the technical capability and man power both companies have,

 

Just feel sorry for the drivers, wasting their talent in a hopeless organization.

 

 

Honda are 1 year behind the other engine manufacturers and yet to get to grips with the new engines.

 

This is unrelated to McLaren's road car business or their ability as a team.

 

If they'd stuck with Mercedes engines instead of making the switch I have no doubt they'd be beating Williams.

 

Manor chucked in the best engine that was bound to boost them up the grid, in 2015 they ran a 2014 Ferrari engine and that was not a good engine.

Edited by RedBaron, 25 February 2016 - 17:41.

[MinT]

Its not looking great is it....

[Seanspeed]

They did not sacrifice a whole year. They were constrained by the regulations limiting them to 7 tokens. What worked in the lab does not always transfer to the track. The trick of this engine formula is turbo compounding. That is done by the MGU-HEAT. Honda applied to install a new turbo last year but we're blocked by the FIA. What were they to do. Produce a new engine in season that would not be compliant with the regs?

"Do a better job in the first place" is probably the answer most people want to hear.  Honda even had one whole year to gain understanding of the new turbo engines while they were being run and were free to develop everything any way they wanted with no restrictions.  

 

 

 

If they'd stuck with Mercedes engines instead of making the switch I have no doubt they'd be beating Williams.

They didn't beat them in 2014 when they did have Merc engines.  Not sure why we should be so sure they'd be beating them now.  

Edited by Seanspeed, 25 February 2016 - 17:42.

[Lemans]

Let's see what next week brings before we collectively start throwing each other off the cliff,

 

**** you! This is all your fault!

[frosty125]

sounds like they have "filming" test day before homologation, hope they are able to run without issues then fingers crossed, i think this is good idea, why waste filming day with spec that we are not racing, better to test homologation spec. I thot like some they were dumb to not film like others when they needed more than others, but this is better i must say.

The 2016 PU won't be homologated until Melbourne so the talk about PU homologation is a bit pointless.

However I simply don't understand how they couldn't get a new engine fitted before close of play today.. The team is the most experienced in terms of PU changes on the grid. For me I feel it's the Honda process of being a bit anal about procedure, that leads to things like this.

[Lemans]

So, we're doomed, right ?

 

No. Not even close.

[AlexS]

What MirNyet did, punctured a clothed Mclaren miniature with Vudu pins?

Edited by AlexS, 25 February 2016 - 17:49.

[f1tomi8]

Team report:
http://www.mclaren.c...-test-day-four/

[Stephane]

Bring on next week engine spec.

[RedBaron]

Some of you guys sound like you need one of these, so I'll leave it here for you.

 

[BillBald]

No, just the chassis is losing 2-3x the time around the track compared to PU.
Laps in 2015 where they did get deployment (proven by top speeds) were still just way off the pace.
I'm no F1 engineer or even analyst, but who can make a strong case based on track performance in 2015 and visual observation in this test, that McLaren surely has a better car than 10th out of 11? Is Haas less? Renault? Sauber (2015evo) would be a case to make. So 9th chassis then, perhaps.
Please stop complaining about Honda. Top speeds are better than lap times would make you expect. And we have to presume the drivers are above average.

 

Top speeds do NOT tell you much about power output.

 

They relate as much to drag, which itself is related to downforce.

 

How often did the MP4-30 even run with a monkey seat? Downforce was clearly minimized as far as possible, and still other cars easily overtook the McLaren on any reasonably long straight.

[Christophe77]

Whilst I would love to see the performance now I haven't forgotten that the others were working on their engines for 1-2 years before they even hit the track. Honda got to track in 2 years and have had to deal with the token system for upgrades. I still don't think they deserve as much crap as they are getting.

 

Yes they do, they suck! They are stubborn, unable to learn from their mistakes, unable to make sweeping changes, unable to admit they were wrong, unable to see that what the others are doing is the right way and they're on the wrong way. And I'll tell you now: this will continue! They are Japanese. If they get it right they will get it right, but if they're on the wrong path they wil stubbornly continue to follow that path even if it leads to the abbys. Gerhard Berger said the same thing a while ago and he's absolutely right.

 

Also, Honda is approaching F1 as a R&D project. They're main goal is to learn, to give a playground to young engineers. They have no pressure to win! It's not marketing for them. With Merc, probably Renault to, they must win, they need wins to market their brand. With Honda it's ok as long as they're R&D'ing.

We need to wait for next week, and I hope I'n wrong but I'm affraid this project is going of the cliff. No way Alonso's going to accept this situation. Wouldn't be surprised if he's already talking to his former Renault buddies...

[RedBaron]

 

They didn't beat them in 2014 when they did have Merc engines.  Not sure why we should be so sure they'd be beating them now.  

 

True, there's always exceptions to the rules, McLaren had a very bad year in 2014. I feel McLaren's resources are far greater than Williams and by now they'd have been back on top of their 2014 woes.

 

That's obviously just a feeling though, can't be sure either way as you pointed out.

[Marklar]

[AlexS]

Btw Magnussen is now probably happy by birthday rejection...

[Mc_Silver]

[djf1]

Honda are 1 year behind the other engine manufacturers and yet to get to grips with the new engines.

 

This is unrelated to McLaren's road car business or their ability as a team.

 

If they'd stuck with Mercedes engines instead of making the switch I have no doubt they'd be beating Williams.

 

Manor chucked in the best engine that was bound to boost them up the grid, in 2015 they ran a 2014 Ferrari engine and that was not a good engine.

 

Ok, that is where I always had problems understanding. in this day and age with all this technology, simulators, wind tunnels etc, a company like Honda who took an extra year to prepare its entry can they be so screwed up if it was not their own incompetence? I'm not an expert obviously but without restrictions developing an engine, they have dyno's to test things, heck they can even package and simulate the environment their engine would be in. Why do they always need to have field testing to " understand" their problems? Now taking a day to "understand" a leak? Seriously? After years of development they need to understand why their cooling system is leaking? WOW... But then again these are the same people that approved the use of substandard exploding Takata airbags in their cars.

http://www.autonews....OEM01/150529874

 

Like I said...everything they do and say has a direct effect on people's perception for the things they actually sell.  They better pack up again and be gone for good like they did after their last fiasco instead of wasting people's time and talent ,having world champions watch from the paddock as they work to "understand" a coolant leak! Unreal!.

[Aeonax]

The 2016 PU won't be homologated until Melbourne so the talk about PU homologation is a bit pointless.

However I simply don't understand how they couldn't get a new engine fitted before close of play today.. The team is the most experienced in terms of PU changes on the grid. For me I feel it's the Honda process of being a bit anal about procedure, that leads to things like this.

 

Allegedly, when they dismounted the whole PU they found something(s) actually "broke" and didnt have the parts. And the New PU arrives tonight.

In any case, if that´s  true, then we´re really doomed! I mean is it possible for Mclaren Honda to actually go to a test without all important parts ready?! They cant be that naive.

 

And IF they went with all expected amount of parts, did they went thru them all in just two and a half days of tests!?...

Ohhh my head its starting to spin

[Alonsofan007]

The 2016 PU won't be homologated until Melbourne so the talk about PU homologation is a bit pointless.

However I simply don't understand how they couldn't get a new engine fitted before close of play today.. The team is the most experienced in terms of PU changes on the grid. For me I feel it's the Honda process of being a bit anal about procedure, that leads to things like this.

FYI homologation date is 29th.

[Heasven]

So all hope is for next week.

Some people are freaking out about reliability. I could care less if the car brakes down on the reconnaissance lap in Melbourne, but come next week if they are still 2-2.5 seconds off the pace then there is no point on keep hoping Honda will get it right.

They were giving a pass last year for the fundamentals issues they had and couldnt fixed due to the rules. But if they havent cut the gap to 1-1.5 seconds off the Mercs, it would show that they are way over their heads with this new formula.

[frosty125]

FYI homologation date is 29th.

And means absolutely nothing because you can just homologate the 2015 PU then run whatever you want in testing because you are not required to run a homologated PU in testing. That's why in effect the homologation date is Melbourne and even after that you can use what remaining tokens you have any point in the season. The FIA made a huge mess with the sporting and technical regs regarding homologation.

[Aeonax]

Team report:
http://www.mclaren.c...-test-day-four/

 

"Unfortunately, the nature of the issue meant the fix took the majority of the afternoon to complete, and the team elected to end the day’s running early in order to ensure the issue was properly investigated and rectified."
 

Total PR BS...

Feel free to check @Piusgasso account on twitter. He spent the whole afternoon in front of Mclarens garage taking pics. You´ll see all mechanics doing nothing...for hours. They could at least try to be more honest with us fans and not feed us such C**p!

[Christophe77]

Psss.... McLaren apparently brought out an unofficial, alternative teamwear... It's been told teammembers wear these at home....

 

[jjcale]

...Meanwhile in the Mercedes W07 thread

 

Thanks for posting this ... I had no idea that this song was from a satire .... I can stop hating it now

 

/off topic

[ERICTOPF1]

I do not know if Honda should hire personnel from Europe or other teams, but I think they should definitely change the "dyno" supplier.

 

The guy is selling absolute crap to them...

[Seanspeed]

"Unfortunately, the nature of the issue meant the fix took the majority of the afternoon to complete, and the team elected to end the day’s running early in order to ensure the issue was properly investigated and rectified."
 

Total PR BS...

Feel free to check @Piusgasso account on twitter. He spent the whole afternoon in front of Mclarens garage taking pics. You´ll see all mechanics doing nothing...for hours. They could at least try to be more honest with us fans and not feed us such C**p!

Means very little.  The analysts may have needed to time to look over data while engineers went over the decision making, all the while the mechanics could have just been waiting on instructions.  

[NoSanityClause]

 

"Ask not what McLaren can do for you - ask when will Alonso jump ship"

[jjcale]

Is it time for fans to start getting a bit rough with Honda on social media?? 

 

It seemed to work with Pirelli ... their tyres became much less shite after we twitter bombed them in 2013 or was it 2014??

 

Honda is not allowed to treat its partnership with one of the greatest F1 teams as a "no pressure"  R&D project - that is not acceptable .... either play to win or go home  

Edited by jjcale, 25 February 2016 - 18:27.

[maverick69]

This makes The Silver Donkey^TM episode seem like a slight tiff with the other half because you didn't lift the seat up before going for a wee.

 

 

[colonelbadger]

Means very little.  The analysts may have needed to time to look over data while engineers went over the decision making, all the while the mechanics could have just been waiting on instructions.  

 

Or they took one look at the problem, after finally getting the engine out and finding it, and realized there was no way they were going to fix it in time.

[McLobby]

FYI homologation date is 29th.

And that means that specs will be fixed for the next test, and it'll be very similar to what they'll run in Melbourne.

 

 

But.... since these 4 days of testing (2 and a half in reality) were wasted on conservative system checks and not at all on perfomance or  testing the gains of various upgrade parts to be added....

So, this test was the last chance, before homologation, and since they didn't test perfomance this engine will be a gumble for everyone , including the team

Let's just hope that this (unreliable?) PU package to be homologated has enough power to give descent results and has the potential to be worked on with the remaining tokens throught the season.

If not... the upcoming shitstorm will be severe...

[charly0418]

The important thing is we're all healthy and living

[ERICTOPF1]

The important thing is we're all healthy and living

 

Amen..

[McLobby]

And means absolutely nothing because you can just homologate the 2015 PU then run whatever you want in testing because you are not required to run a homologated PU in testing. That's why in effect the homologation date is Melbourne and even after that you can use what remaining tokens you have any point in the season. The FIA made a huge mess with the sporting and technical regs regarding homologation.

 

Yes but if the non homologated engine in ther second test perfoms much better than the already (by then) homologated one then they'll be banging their heads on the wall for having to waste valueable inseason tokens.

[LeClerc]

Edited by LeClerc, 25 February 2016 - 18:45.

[Lemans]

The important thing is we're all healthy and living

 

Edited by Lemans, 25 February 2016 - 18:42.

[chhatra]

The important thing is we're all healthy and living

Thank you for some much needed perspective.

[Pete_f1]

I can't see Honda being that bad come mid way through the season...


But if they are I can see two seats up for grabs at McLaren and someone from the team on a tour of Toyota, VW Audi and..?

[Stephane]

I thought the homologation deadline was dead since last year

[ERICTOPF1]

Yes but if the non homologated engine in ther second test perfoms much better than the already (by then) homologated one then they'll be banging their heads on the wall for having to waste valueable inseason tokens.

 

No one knows what engine they will homologate,how many tokens it costed them and what conclusions they got form this week's running.

 

Maybe next week's PU is just about ICE upgrades which they trust and have already homologated in their planning. 

 

Few more days until Australia

Edited by ERICTOPF1, 25 February 2016 - 18:45.

[frosty125]

Yes but if the non homologated engine in ther second test perfoms much better than the already (by then) homologated one then they'll be banging their heads on the wall for having to waste valueable inseason tokens.

 

No you can just homolgate the 2015 PU which uses no tokens, then use some of the 32 for the Melbourne homologation. Before Melbourne in testing you run whatever you want in testing, trying out various PU specs.

And that means that specs will be fixed for the next test, and it'll be very similar to what they'll run in Melbourne.

 

 

But.... since these 4 days of testing (2 and a half in reality) were wasted on conservative system checks and not at all on perfomance or  testing the gains of various upgrade parts to be added....

So, this test was the last chance, before homologation, and since they didn't test perfomance this engine will be a gumble for everyone , including the team

Let's just hope that this (unreliable?) PU package to be homologated has enough power to give descent results and has the potential to be worked on with the remaining tokens throught the season.

If not... the upcoming shitstorm will be severe...

No the spec isn't fixed yet, homolgation is in effect Melbourne not the 28th or 29th 

 

I thought the homologation deadline was dead since last year

 

In effect it is

[Mackey]

Can´t they homologate the 2015 unit and use some of the ¿32? tokens just before the first race? That way they have more time to evaluate which parts are better in the next test