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Very interesting article of Willem Toet on Michael Schumacher


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#1 Junky

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 16:16

This is an excellent article and this is why I thought would be worth sharing. 

 

Willem Toet, F1's aerodynamics specialist, former member of Benetton, Ferrari, BAR/Honda, BMW Sauber/Sauber, gives his insight on Schumacher and how he became the driver that he was.

 

 

 

 

"Driving in Formula 1 – Michael Schumacher, some background

 

Working out how to drive a Formula 1 car.

 

Michael Schumacher may not be universally loved, but there is no doubt he was one of the strongest of his era.   With Senna missing from the ranks after 1994, he had few long-term rivals while he was at his driving peak.  My first introduction to Michael was when he came and drove for Benetton.  Michael had driven the Jordan, which was a reasonable car but not as quick as the Benetton, and managed to qualify 7th at Spa in 1991 in his first GP.  This was generally believed to be a remarkable achievement for a rookie.   He then cooked the clutch at the start so did not even complete a lap.  Not the most auspicious start to a Fomula 1 career after such a brilliant qualifying.   Flavio Briatore (who ran Benetton at the time) immediately signed him and his first GP for “us” was at Monza where he finished 5th.  1991 was definitely a learning year for Michael.

 

Michael always had a very precise, consistent way of driving; he could adapt his style to suit whatever was necessary.  He was also very analytical and extremely serious about his job.  Out of the car he was a relatively normal intelligent human being.  When he wasn’t at work you were able to crack jokes, talk to him about almost anything.

 

In the car he seemed to have the ability to drive the car with his driving brain while having plenty of spare mental capacity to record extra information or discuss strategy with his engineers.  From feedback I had when I joined the team (when it was called Toleman Group Motorsport) this was something that Ayrton Senna also had.  The team engineers were stunned in the early days that Michael could drive the car for 3 laps and tell them what the car did corner entry, mid-corner and corner exit – for each lap.  At first we didn’t believe that he could accurately record all this information but, as the data logging improved, we were able to see what he was talking about and understood that, yes, he was able to actually record all this information in his head.  You could look at the data but his comments were faster so, once you learned to believe him, you could set the car up more quickly because he would communicate the most important pieces of information immediately.

 

One of the early surprises was Michael trying to cope with a car that did not have traction control and trying to get the best out of it.  One of the ways he described it was: he would push the accelerator to come out of the corner, the car would start to slide so he’d come off the “gas” again but this was happening faster than we could believe and, at the time, I think we were only logging the throttle position at 10 or 20 times per second.   When we started logging the throttle position at higher frequencies, we could see what he was doing.  We realised that he was pushing the car into a slide, the yaw rate would begin to increase, then he would back off the throttle and the yaw rate would begin to decrease until he would get back on the throttle again.  Something we hadn’t seen at that speed before from other drivers.

 

One of the early things that he asked for was a speedometer.  At first we all laughed at this – race drivers use the tacho (rpm meter).  So he explained that the tacho was very useful but “If I come out of the corner in 3rd gear or I come out of the same corner in 2nd gear, I want to know whether it actually helps my acceleration.  Do I reach a higher top speed or is the extra acceleration in 2nd lost when I change gear?   If I change gear earlier in top gear, when the engine feels a bit flat, I want to know whether it helps my top speed.  If I change the actual gear ratios, then all my references are gone if I’ve only got rpm.”  So, to the rescue came Richard Marshall (Head of Electronics) and we gave Michael a digital speed display.   It was added onto the cockpit rim in the driver’s line of sight.  Richard was and is a cautious person (I’m a bit the opposite) and didn’t want to throw an extra data logger and displays onto the car without testing them first if it was possible to test somehow.   So the hillclimb car we shared grew some extra sensors and displays within days of Michael’s request so that we could test the system at the weekend before it was transferred onto the F1 car for the following event.

 

1992 - Me (Willem) in the Peugeot 205 hillclimb car that I shared with Richard Marshall.  Car was used as a test bed for electronic devices (not just for the speed display).   Note pitot–static tube mounted on passenger side of car above the door.  The motive for testing things on the Peugeot was to help the team do a better job at races – no to help us.   Sometimes we also benefited, but Richard was employed at Benetton partly because he already had a data logger he’d designed himself on the hillclimb car and the F1 team needed to get up to date....

 

 

So Michael had his little remote speed display, he used it to help with his driving technique, but then he commented that he felt that it wasn’t quite as easy as he’d thought to read.  He said: “In the middle of a corner, when I’m making the apex, it’s a bit hard to focus on the speed.  Things are changing so quickly so you can’t really watch the speedo and be sure that you’ve seen the lowest speed.  Then, if you want to watch your top speed at the end of the straight, it’s not so easy to watch there either because you’ve really got to be watching for your brake marker.”  So what he said he would really like now was 3 speed displays.  I suspect at this point we looked a bit puzzled so he explained what he wanted: “I’d like to keep the real-time speedo in the middle, where it is.  Then on the left I would like a speed display that shows the minimum speed in a corner.  It should hold that speed until I go for the brakes again.  Then when I go for the brakes that can be reset to give me the new minimum speed.  Then on the right I’d like another speed display to remember the maximum speed I reached until I’ve been flat on the throttle for a second or two so I can read the maximum speed from the previous straight”.  Richard went back to work out how that could be done and gave Michael that arrangement.   You can imagine that the displays themselves and the way they were configured went though some iterations. 

 

So we gave him those and then he started to play.  He would experiment with ratios, driving styles, racing lines and also use it to assess setup changes.  After a few years Michael decided he knew how to drive a F1 car now and didn’t need the speedos any more, but that was a learning exercise for him.  (My friend Richard comments that actually, the FIA rules on Driver Aids – even back then - meant we couldn’t run them after a while).

 

A different post from me this time.  If you have additional information that can add to this, please DO share it.  I have another couple of posts relating to this to follow but this one is already huge so I'll stop here.  Please share if you feel it is useful for other people to read."

 

Source: Willem Toet's LinkedIn account (https://www.linkedin...und-willem-toet)


Edited by Junky, 11 December 2015 - 16:18.


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#2 Nemo1965

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 19:57

This is an excellent article and this is why I thought would be worth sharing. 

 

Willem Toet, F1's aerodynamics specialist, former member of Benetton, Ferrari, BAR/Honda, BMW Sauber/Sauber, gives his insight on Schumacher and how he became the driver that he was.

 

That is a very interesting article. And it confirms to me what I have thought for a while (and has been said by many others): that next to being very talented, Michael Schumacher MADE himself as a racing driver. There is this famous (perhaps too famous) story about Heinz Harald Frentzen, Schumacher and Karl Wendlinger being teammates in the Mercedes Sports Car Team (with... Peter Sauber as teamboss). If the three went to a track, Weidlinger usually was the fastest... and he could explain why. Once in a while, Frentzen was the fastest... but he could not explain why. If they tested for several days on one track, Schumacher became the fastest... he could 'figure' out a car in relation to the track.

 

I believe in pure racing talent, Ralf Schumacher was just as talented as his brother. But he never had the iron willpower of his brother, nor the talent (or desperate intensity?) for analysis. Hence the difference in results...

 

So thanks for the link! :up:


Edited by Nemo1965, 11 December 2015 - 20:00.


#3 Dan333SP

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 20:31

Thanks for the link, OP. Always enjoy reading about one of my heroes.

 

There's another article out there that I recall reading back in the day. It was written while he was at Ferrari but before any world titles, maybe late '98? Excellent piece showing his complete dedication to his craft, to the extent that it isolated him from the world and almost made the author pity him on some level.

 

Edit:

 

Found it.

 

http://atlasf1.autos...schumacher.html

 

There is a great irony in that article. It talks about his hunger pushing him beyond limits and potentially putting his life in jeopardy, and yet the way everything panned out in hindsight with his skiing accident seems so utterly trivial by comparison. Life is strange and unfair.



#4 Afterburner

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 21:27

Thanks for the read. I've always got one eye on the speedo at the exit of every corner as well... I get told I'm crazy for that, but now I feel much less so.   ;)

 

EDITED TO ADD: Yes, I realise what I just wrote--it makes sense in context.


Edited by Afterburner, 11 December 2015 - 21:28.


#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 22:13

If he's moving his throttle foot at more than 20 times per second, I'm surprise we couldn't hear it. That's a little more than a brap-brap mid-corner.

#6 OO7

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 22:27

If he's moving his throttle foot at more than 20 times per second, I'm surprise we couldn't hear it. That's a little more than a brap-brap mid-corner.

There's no way he was modulating the throttle at more 20 times per second or even 10 times per second for that matter.  I can only conclude that the value was more like 5 times per second at best or a filter in the logging system was turned up and started to read high frequency noise in conjunction with Michael's modulations.



#7 baddog

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 23:40

The fact you need better than 10 reads a second to interpret the results doesn't mean he was making changes that fast and I dont think they were suggesting that, just very fast and with subtle movements. cruder data rates will tend to mask such things, higher res will give you a proper view.



#8 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 00:07

The fact you need better than 10 reads a second to interpret the results doesn't mean he was making changes that fast and I dont think they were suggesting that, just very fast and with subtle movements. cruder data rates will tend to mask such things, higher res will give you a proper view.

That makes more sense. :up:



#9 Smiley

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 03:59

Just a little visual to add to the topic, difference in driving style between MS and JH

 



#10 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 11:23

Just a little visual to add to the topic, difference in driving style between MS and JH

 

 

I've used and posted this video many times to support why I believe that Schumacher did not use illegal traction control in the Benetton F1-cars. The traces of the steering and the throttle show the opposite of a car of which the traction of the wheels are supported by a computer. This still is, I think, the most important:

 

bWMIy96.png


Edited by Nemo1965, 12 December 2015 - 11:23.


#11 krea

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:24

There were never claims of use of traction control.



#12 Marklar

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:35

There were never claims of use of traction control.

 

Yeah there is just a whole wiki page of that ;)
 
Some example claims
 
Verstappen

Senna
 
And we even had many years back a thread about that

 

So yes, there were a lot claims that Benetton used TC, which was never proven. Whether they actually used it is a different question (personally I think no), but its a denial to say that there were never claims, because well, the internet is full of these articles..... ;)



#13 Clatter

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:35

There were never claims of use of traction control.

There weren't?

What was Senna on about then? And all the suspiciously hidden code.

#14 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:39

I've used and posted this video many times to support why I believe that Schumacher did not use illegal traction control in the Benetton F1-cars. The traces of the steering and the throttle show the opposite of a car of which the traction of the wheels are supported by a computer. This still is, I think, the most important:
 
bWMIy96.png


In a way it almost looks like he's driving an exhaust blown diffuser.

#15 krea

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 12:40

Unlike the starting aid there were never any investigations for traction control. TC is also one of the most obvious things you can't hide, Benetton couldn't drive a half lap without that the data logger would clearly show the use TC.

 

Is just one of the things people like to claim (rant) because why not?


Edited by krea, 12 December 2015 - 12:43.


#16 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 13:09

In a way it almost looks like he's driving an exhaust blown diffuser.

 

A very good point. That is why MS was so out of depth when he returned. Also Webber's biggest problem at RB.



#17 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 13:10

The car shown in the video is the B195, that contested the 1995 F1 World Championship.  Assuming the traces displayed are from that car then I don't believe there were any accusations claiming it was fitted with TC, those accusations were directed at the B194 the year before.  Apparently the F.I.A discovered traction control/launch control software in the car, but Benetton stated they never used it.  The driver was required to execute a convoluted process of button pushes and switch changes to activate the system.

 

Willem Toet states that the B194 was actually equipped with traction control and managed this by exploiting a loophole in the poorly constructed regulation.  Checkout the italicised December 12th update at the bottom of the following article: https://www.linkedin...=mp-reader-card

Above that update is also an excellent explanation of how traction control could be implemented, by tracking the air pressure changes in the engine airbox.  

It is a brilliant article because not only does it corroborate the B194 traction control claims, it also goes on to explain how it was achieved and all this coming from a man who was there, who has intimate knowledge of some of the systems involved because he designed them!


Edited by OO7, 12 December 2015 - 13:49.


#18 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 14:56

The car shown in the video is the B195, that contested the 1995 F1 World Championship.  Assuming the traces displayed are from that car then I don't believe there were any accusations claiming it was fitted with TC, those accusations were directed at the B194 the year before.  Apparently the F.I.A discovered traction control/launch control software in the car, but Benetton stated they never used it.  The driver was required to execute a convoluted process of button pushes and switch changes to activate the system.

 

Willem Toet states that the B194 was actually equipped with traction control and managed this by exploiting a loophole in the poorly constructed regulation.  Checkout the italicised December 12th update at the bottom of the following article: https://www.linkedin...=mp-reader-card

Above that update is also an excellent explanation of how traction control could be implemented, by tracking the air pressure changes in the engine airbox.  

It is a brilliant article because not only does it corroborate the B194 traction control claims, it also goes on to explain how it was achieved and all this coming from a man who was there, who has intimate knowledge of some of the systems involved because he designed them!

 

Very interesting, again, thanks. But the analysis of Schumacher's driving style applies to both 1994 and 1995. He was not late into the brakes, his throttle use was not even, muffled or suppressed and his steering in the middle of the corner was always frantic - both in 1994 and 1995. As the trace shows in the above video (yes, in 95 but bear with me), Schumacher actually holds a more even speed through the corner, while Herbert (and others) accelerate through the corner. But because Schumacher's speed in general is higher, he still is faster than Herbet.

 

Regarding the 'lack of success' of Schumacher after his return: I've heard say that Ross Brawn said Schumi's reaction-time had slowed time. He could not make those lightening-fast corrections mid-corner any more. In another thread I stated that Schumi was just up against a very fast driver and the comeback was not as modest as it seemed. I still stand by that opinion.



#19 myattitude

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 15:23

Very interesting, again, thanks. But the analysis of Schumacher's driving style applies to both 1994 and 1995. He was not late into the brakes, his throttle use was not even, muffled or suppressed and his steering in the middle of the corner was always frantic - both in 1994 and 1995. As the trace shows in the above video (yes, in 95 but bear with me), Schumacher actually holds a more even speed through the corner, while Herbert (and others) accelerate through the corner. But because Schumacher's speed in general is higher, he still is faster than Herbet.

 

Regarding the 'lack of success' of Schumacher after his return: I've heard say that Ross Brawn said Schumi's reaction-time had slowed time. He could not make those lightening-fast corrections mid-corner any more. In another thread I stated that Schumi was just up against a very fast driver and the comeback was not as modest as it seemed. I still stand by that opinion.

Do you have a link for that by any chance? I thought I remember him on the BBC saying it looked exactly the same as before from the telemetry.



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#20 Viryfan

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 15:37

In a way it almost looks like he's driving an exhaust blown diffuser.

 

 

Renault used exhaust blown diffuser in 1995 according to Vincent Gaillardot who was Benetton's operating chief for Renault engine.


Edited by Viryfan, 12 December 2015 - 15:40.


#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 15:45

It seemed like they were used frequently throughout the 90s. Was there a reason(rules I assume?) people abandoned them and then randomly discovered them again in 2010s? For most of the 00s it was periscope-exhausts.

#22 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 16:14

Do you have a link for that by any chance? I thought I remember him on the BBC saying it looked exactly the same as before from the telemetry.

 

I can't provide a link because it was told to me personally, sub rosa. Sorry.



#23 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 16:14

It seemed like they were used frequently throughout the 90s. Was there a reason(rules I assume?) people abandoned them and then randomly discovered them again in 2010s? For most of the 00s it was periscope-exhausts.

That's a good question.  I think aero just in evolved in a direction that favoured stability, rather than the peaky yet sensitive blown diffuser solutions.  In the previous incarnation the blown diffuser was used simply to accelerate flow and directly increase downforce at lower speeds.  Renault introduced developments that enabled the floor to be blown even when the driver was off throttle, but I don't know if these were installed prior to 2011.

 

The purpose of the blown diffuser on the 2011 cars was a little different.  The exhaust exits were placed close to the outside leading edges of the diffuser, with the intention of enhancing vortices in this region.  The vortices assisted in shielding the diffuser from the migration of high pressure airflow primarily, as well as accelerating the internal flow.  The vortex seal allowed for larger rake angles to be used, thus placing the front wing further in ground effect yielding greater overall downforce.


Edited by OO7, 12 December 2015 - 17:27.


#24 FLB

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 16:24

IIRC, even IndyCars were using blown diffusers in the early 1990s, notably on the Lola T9200. It was given as a contributing factor to Nelson Piquet's 1992 Indy crash in the Frech magazine Sport Auto, complete with a drawing of the car's underbody. Nissan's GTP-ZXT (IMSA, late 1980s) also featured a blown diffuser.

 

Apparently, a yellow light went out and Piquet lifted in the short chute between Tuns 3 and 4. When he got to Turn 4, there was a whole lot less downforce and 'round he went...



#25 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 16:43

Very interesting, again, thanks. But the analysis of Schumacher's driving style applies to both 1994 and 1995. He was not late into the brakes, his throttle use was not even, muffled or suppressed and his steering in the middle of the corner was always frantic - both in 1994 and 1995. As the trace shows in the above video (yes, in 95 but bear with me), Schumacher actually holds a more even speed through the corner, while Herbert (and others) accelerate through the corner. But because Schumacher's speed in general is higher, he still is faster than Herbet.

 

Regarding the 'lack of success' of Schumacher after his return: I've heard say that Ross Brawn said Schumi's reaction-time had slowed time. He could not make those lightening-fast corrections mid-corner any more. In another thread I stated that Schumi was just up against a very fast driver and the comeback was not as modest as it seemed. I still stand by that opinion.

I can't really comment on Schumacher's 1994 driving style and make a comparison because unfortunately there is no telemetry available, however I think Michael was a driver that would adapt his driving to the characteristics of the car.

 

I far as I can recall, when asked about his favourite cars, he stated something to the effect that the B194 was excellent, very easy to drive on the limit and very predictable.  The B195 on the other hand was very nervous and twitchy, it lacked stability and was one of the most difficult cars he had driven despite its speed.

 

The comments on the B195 are reflected in the Silverstone telemetry video posted.  Bridge corner is negotiated at 150mph or so and at that speed traction control (whether embedded in the cars systems or not) isn't a factor.  The corrections Michael makes through the corner are a result of aerodynamic instabilities in the car, that manifest as moments of oversteer through the corner.



#26 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 16:50

IIRC, even IndyCars were using blown diffusers in the early 1990s, notably on the Lola T9200. It was given as a contributing factor to Nelson Piquet's 1992 Indy crash in the Frech magazine Sport Auto, complete with a drawing of the car's underbody. Nissan's GTP-ZXT (IMSA, late 1980s) also featured a blown diffuser.

 

Apparently, a yellow light went out and Piquet lifted in the short chute between Tuns 3 and 4. When he got to Turn 4, there was a whole lot less downforce and 'round he went...

Just last week on another site, I was reading about the development of the Allard J2X sportscar.  The designer was reluctant to place the exhaust exit in the venturi tunnel, because despite the benefit of increased downforce, he felt it was far too sensitive (in general, not specific to this car design) to throttle modulation.  He decided as a compromise to place exhaust exit close to the trailing edge of the tunnel.  This location improved downforce and drag figures (not as much as if placed near the leading edge) and was less sensitive to throttle changes.


Edited by OO7, 12 December 2015 - 17:37.


#27 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 17:25

I can't provide a link because it was told to me personally, sub rosa. Sorry.


Yet you've posted it on a public portion of the internet and even attributed the source :D

This is why there's no such thing as 'off the record'

#28 MNader

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 19:20

Thanks for the link, OP. Always enjoy reading about one of my heroes.

 

There's another article out there that I recall reading back in the day. It was written while he was at Ferrari but before any world titles, maybe late '98? Excellent piece showing his complete dedication to his craft, to the extent that it isolated him from the world and almost made the author pity him on some level.

 

Edit:

 

Found it.

 

http://atlasf1.autos...schumacher.html

 

There is a great irony in that article. It talks about his hunger pushing him beyond limits and potentially putting his life in jeopardy, and yet the way everything panned out in hindsight with his skiing accident seems so utterly trivial by comparison. Life is strange and unfair.

 

First time i read that article, wow. 

 

I think this is what F1 should be, This is a man and team i can respect. Now i only respect the team, not the drivers (through no fault of their own, they cannot do any testing like Michael did)



#29 Clatter

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 19:27

First time i read that article, wow. 

 

I think this is what F1 should be, This is a man and team i can respect. Now i only respect the team, not the drivers (through no fault of their own, they cannot do any testing like Michael did)

So todays drivers have a steeper hill to climb each race weekend compared to MS, but you don't respect them?



#30 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 20:32

So todays drivers have a steeper hill to climb each race weekend compared to MS, but you don't respect them?

Ehm, what? They are first class pussies nowadays.



#31 MNader

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 20:33

So todays drivers have a steeper hill to climb each race weekend compared to MS, but you don't respect them?

 

What do you mean by a steeper hill to climb? Actually its the teams who have a steeper hill to climb since they have to do the setups for the drivers, of course the drivers need to be able to give great feedback in short time but still it is the Engineers and Mechanics who suffer most. the drivers "work" for 3-4 days in the weekend + maybe 1 or 2 simulator visit and the rest is sponsor work or personal training. 

 

Last year we had Hulkenberg even saying that 3 FP sessions was too much.

 

As an example,

Now:

Between race weekends, the engineers are back at the factory, spending countless hours running simulations and studying previous data to prepare for the next race(spending at least 10 working hours per day). while the drivers do sponsor events, go train, go to parties,,,,etc. 

 

 

Schumacher Example:

 

With no races happening, he is at the factory, training and working with the team and driving countless hours to develop the car and get everything to his liking WHILE also doing sponsor and marketing events.

 

 

 

So yes, the drivers now are not and actually cannot be as dedicated as Schumacher was, what really pisses me off however is that they are the stars; They get all of the attention and glamour, and So did MSC but for me he deserved that (specially after reading that article)  but now i think that glamour should be given more to those who sacrifice their time and personal life for the team to win, and these people today are not the drivers.



#32 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 20:44

Yet you've posted it on a public portion of the internet and even attributed the source :D

This is why there's no such thing as 'off the record'

 

I will fully admit it was hearsay. :o Someone told me that Ross Brawn said it several private meetings at Mercedes. But never in Schumi's face... Make of it what you may. I always remembered it, because it sounded quite plausible to me. In a court of law, of course, I could be forced to reveal my source or be held in contempt. Luckily, this is not a court (yet)... :yawnface:


Edited by Nemo1965, 12 December 2015 - 20:45.


#33 Marklar

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:08

I will fully admit it was hearsay. :o Someone told me that Ross Brawn said it several private meetings at Mercedes. But never in Schumi's face... Make of it what you may. I always remembered it, because it sounded quite plausible to me. In a court of law, of course, I could be forced to reveal my source or be held in contempt. Luckily, this is not a court (yet)... :yawnface:

I've heared exactly the same.



#34 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:11

I will fully admit it was hearsay. :o Someone told me that Ross Brawn said it several private meetings at Mercedes. But never in Schumi's face... Make of it what you may. I always remembered it, because it sounded quite plausible to me. In a court of law, of course, I could be forced to reveal my source or be held in contempt. Luckily, this is not a court (yet)... :yawnface:

 

Comedy gold BS.

 

 

I doubt he said anything of the sort. Watch this:

 

 

Reaction time slowed, eh?

 

There were several problems with Michael in his comeback years. His reaction times and driving ability and his feedback was not among them.



#35 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:21

Schumacher Example:

 

With no races happening, he is at the factory, training and working with the team and driving countless hours to develop the car and get everything to his liking WHILE also doing sponsor and marketing events.

Current drivers do pretty much the same, with the level of dedication to physical training and working at the factory varying throughout the grid.  The only difference is there is far less testing available today.  



#36 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:24

Comedy gold BS.

 

 

I doubt he said anything of the sort. Watch this:

 

 

Reaction time slowed, eh?

 

There were several problems with Michael in his comeback years. His reaction times and driving ability and his feedback was not among them.

The Sun will even shine on a dogs arse some days.

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Now Schumie was no dog and demonstrated flashes of genius during his comeback.



#37 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:31

Current drivers do pretty much the same, with the level of dedication to physical training and working at the factory varying throughout the grid.  The only difference is there is far less testing available today.  

 

Current drivers dedication to physical training is a hobby. It is a marketing inspired part of their image. It makes them feel like they are real sportsmen. It gives them the sense of achievement that F1 racing no longer provides. Some of them need to lose keep their weight, that's all.



#38 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:35

The Sun will even shine on a dogs arse some days.

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Now Schumie was no dog and demonstrated flashes of genius during his comeback.

 

What?



#39 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:35

Current drivers dedication to physical training is a hobby. It is a marketing inspired part of their image. It makes them feel like they are real sportsmen. It gives them the sense of achievement that F1 racing no longer provides. Some of them need to lose keep their weight, that's all.

Some current drivers e.g Jenson enjoy physical fitness as a hobby, others keep as fit as they need to be.  If the cars become more physical, they'd up there training intensity.



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#40 MNader

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:38

Current drivers do pretty much the same, with the level of dedication to physical training and working at the factory varying throughout the grid.  The only difference is there is far less testing available today.  

 

Physical training i agree that most do put a lot of time into in a professional matter.

 

But who of the current drivers sleep at the factory to assist the team in development?

 

As i said, testing limits is not their fault. But now they work 2 Simulator days between the races and that's it while their Engineers and mechanics make up for the lost time while the drivers go to events, train and party or just relax. If we compare the work Load Michael did and what is done by the drivers now it is very hard to say that they posed the same level of dedication and effort as he did



#41 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:39

Some current drivers e.g Jenson enjoy physical fitness as a hobby, others keep as fit as they need to be.  If the cars become more physical, they'd up there training intensity.

 

Exactly. The cars are not physical. A kart is more physical. Basically, they are all pussies nowadays.



#42 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:40

What?

Even for a driver that has been struggling, things can come together on occasion allowing for a great result.  Michael demonstrated that despite not being the dominant force he once was, he could still produce some magic every now and then.



#43 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:43

Physical training i agree that most do put a lot of time into in a professional matter.

 

But who of the current drivers sleep at the factory to assist the team in development?

 

As i said, testing limits is not their fault. But now they work 2 Simulator days between the races and that's it while their Engineers and mechanics make up for the lost time while the drivers go to events, train and party or just relax. If we compare the work Load Michael did and what is done by the drivers now it is very hard to say that they posed the same level of dedication and effort as he did

There is a gulf between what Michael did and what current drivers do and that is primarily because of the regs, but also because Michael was Michael.



#44 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:49

Exactly. The cars are not physical. A kart is more physical. Basically, they are all pussies nowadays.

Does that make the drivers p!"£%^* or the cars p!"£%^*.......?



#45 Marklar

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:54

Its true that it is not anymore that physical. Thats the reason why someone like Lewis Hamilton can party all week and stil easily win the championship. But drivers have stil to train their neck regulary, because thats stil what distinguish F1.



#46 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:55

Even for a driver that has been struggling, things can come together on occasion allowing for a great result.  Michael demonstrated that despite not being the dominant force he once was, he could still produce some magic every now and then.

 

Oh. That. I think Michael demonstrated that when he is not handicapped by a dnf( he had 7 in 2012 compared to Rosberg's 3) he can show the way to NR(who showed the way LH  in the next two seasons at Monaco by the way) This whole debate started with the BS Nemo presented in his post. Do you really feel the need to add to that??



#47 MikeV1987

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:56

Yeah there is just a whole wiki page of that ;)
 
Some example claims
 
Verstappen

Senna
 
And we even had many years back a thread about that

 

So yes, there were a lot claims that Benetton used TC, which was never proven. Whether they actually used it is a different question (personally I think no), but its a denial to say that there were never claims, because well, the internet is full of these articles.....  ;)

 

Seen an interesting youtube vid awhile back about this actually.

 


Edited by MikeV1987, 12 December 2015 - 21:58.


#48 Marklar

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 21:59

I dont know if its more bullshit to say that Schumacher lost a bit of his reaction time in his 2nd career (I mean he is getting older, thats naturally for everyone, and there were definetely rumours) or to say that drivers are just training purely as a hobby....


Edited by Marklar, 12 December 2015 - 21:59.


#49 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 22:02

Oh. That. I think Michael demonstrated that when he is not handicapped by a dnf( he had 7 in 2012 compared to Rosberg's 3) he can show the way to NR(who showed the way LH  in the next two seasons at Monaco by the way) This whole debate started with the BS Nemo presented in his post. Do you really feel the need to add to that??

So are you saying Michael was still the dominant force during his come back?



#50 OO7

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 22:03

I dont know if its more bullshit to say that Schumacher lost a bit of his reaction time in his 2nd career (I mean he is getting older, thats naturally for everyone, and there were definetely rumours) or to say that drivers are just training purely as a hobby....

Exactly.