132 replies to this topic

[Dan333SP]

We had an interesting thread going on the most successful comebacks in motorsports history (For example, Lauda returning from retirement and winning the '84 title, or Montoya returning to Indy and winning this year, ect.)

 

How about the inverse of that... What, in your opinion, were the least successful returns in the history of the sport?

 

A couple I'll throw out there... Luca Badoer in '09 driving the Ferrari. There's a reason he never got hired by a top team after his Minardi drive, but you'd think with his testing duties he would have at least been in the same ballpark as the other drivers, but he was so far off the pace it was actually quite shocking. I know Fisi didn't do much better, but at least he was able to get into Q2. Badoer was last on the grid in both of his outings in the car, one of which his teammate won.

 

Also, Zanardi in '99. I think the guy is an absolute legend, especially with what he's accomplished since he lost his legs, but he was really unimpressive against Ralf that year and lost the drive after a single season. He'd been so quick in CART that it was a shock for me to see him so far down the grid on a consistent basis in a car that Ralf managed to get into the points fairly regularly.

 

As discussed in the other thread, I think MSC's comeback was successful on some level, though I'm sure others will see it as a disappointment because it dulled some of his luster as a potential "greatest ever" driver.

 

What do you guys think?

[Marklar]

Even if it sounds unfair given the circumstances, but one disappointing comeback was Felipe Massa.

 

At the time of his crash he was one of the best drivers, he was even in 2009 impressive and after his accident he was never ever the same again.

[EvilPhil II]

It depends of course on what you class as successful, but I always felt embarrassed for Prost in 1993 to have to have the team place orders on a rookie and unaccomplished teammate in order to win races and the championship.  

 

Yes, he won the championship, and No, he didn't drive like he deserved it.

 

Brazil, Hungary and Donington Park spring to mind as absolutely appalling performances and I was not least bit surprised when he announced his retirement. 

 

[Marklar]

And of course: Nigel Mansell in 1995...

[Myrvold]

A couple I'll throw out there... Luca Badoer in '09 driving the Ferrari. There's a reason he never got hired by a top team after his Minardi drive, but you'd think with his testing duties he would have at least been in the same ballpark as the other drivers, but he was so far off the pace it was actually quite shocking. I know Fisi didn't do much better, but at least he was able to get into Q2. Badoer was last on the grid in both of his outings in the car, one of which his teammate won.

There is a reason he never got hired by a top team, or a mid-team. He said no ;) He was linked to Sauber, Arrows, even Jaguar at some point, but he didn't really want to leave Ferrari, and didn't pursue it at all.
I think all remember how awful the Ferrari was in 2009, and how long time it took Massa and Raikkonen to get to grips with the car, and be able to score points, and they even had full pre-season testing. Badoer had absolutely 0 metres in the car before Valencia. The fact that he didn't set the slowest time of the race, and wasn't too bad considering he was spun out by Grosjean as well. And that he had the fastest sector 1 time in Belgium, shows that there were glimpses of speed in the man. And I am absolutely convinced, that if Badoer had been able to stay with Ferrari out the season, learning how the damn awful car worked, he would've scored points.

[EvilPhil II]

And of course: Nigel Mansell in 1995...

 

His comeback was in 1994 and resulted in a pole and a win.   Admittedly he wasn't as strong during qualification as most expected but by Japan there was a real sign that he was back on form.   I do wonder if he might have won the 1995 championship in the Williams. 

[Marklar]

Villeneuve in 2004

[scheivlak]

 And that he had the fastest sector 1 time in Belgium, shows that there were glimpses of speed in the man. 

It was suggested at the time that he was fastest because he missed his braking point (end of S1 is just before Les Combes) 

[Graveltrappen]

Kimi Raikkonen. A few decent races at lotus but his Ferrari stint is embarrassing for a driver that was once held in the same regard as alonso etc. I remember for years folk wanting the like of Kimi alongside Alonso or Vettel... turns out to have been less than spectacular to watch.

[scheivlak]

And of course: Nigel Mansell in 1995...

How about his Le Mans 2010 effort?

[Timantti]

Kimi Raikkonen. A few decent races at lotus but his Ferrari stint is embarrassing for a driver that was once held in the same regard as alonso etc. I remember for years folk wanting the like of Kimi alongside Alonso or Vettel... turns out to have been less than spectacular to watch.

 

I think I was one of the very few who were disappointed already on his Lotus stint. I love that he got those two victories, but let's be honest here, he kind of flattered Grosjean. I'm sure Vettel would have taken several wins with that car.

Edited by Timantti, 15 December 2015 - 21:02.

[SonJR]

There is a reason he never got hired by a top team, or a mid-team. He said no ;) He was linked to Sauber, Arrows, even Jaguar at some point, but he didn't really want to leave Ferrari, and didn't pursue it at all.
I think all remember how awful the Ferrari was in 2009, and how long time it took Massa and Raikkonen to get to grips with the car, and be able to score points, and they even had full pre-season testing. Badoer had absolutely 0 metres in the car before Valencia. The fact that he didn't set the slowest time of the race, and wasn't too bad considering he was spun out by Grosjean as well. And that he had the fastest sector 1 time in Belgium, shows that there were glimpses of speed in the man. And I am absolutely convinced, that if Badoer had been able to stay with Ferrari out the season, learning how the damn awful car worked, he would've scored points.

Just going by my gut and recollections here, but in terms of the teams relative performance 2008/2009 always felt like some of the most competitive seasons to me. Especially once the double diffuser advantage was somewhat annulled in 2009, the field felt very tight.

[Dunc]

Kimi was good in 2012 but since then he's been decidedly average. Anthony Davidson in 2007/08 maybe?

[scheivlak]

Kimi was good in 2012 but since then he's been decidedly average. 

He was still very good in many races in 2013. His Australian win was brilliant. He did a great job in Germany and Hungary.

[DampMongoose]

Sadly Moss in the Audi 80.

[RedBaron]

Ralf Schumacher's attempted come back for Force India. Slowest of the potential drivers in the running for the seat at the test.

 

Technically not a comeback as he didn't make it to the grid, but that's how bad it was...

Edited by RedBaron, 15 December 2015 - 22:10.

[Collombin]

Peter Arundell. Never the same again.

[Nathan]

Alan Jones, 1985/6.

Edited by Nathan, 15 December 2015 - 22:23.

[Collombin]

Troy Ruttman. Never the same again.

Mark Donohue, sadly.

[messy]

Badoer did about as well as could be expected given that he hadn't raced in ten years. He wasn't as bad as people make out. He qualified last in both his races - of course he did. Had he lasted to the end of the season I don't think he'd have been last anymore. Ferrari wanted instant results so went for Fisichella, who was also well off the pace. Raikkonen too, brilliant comeback in 2012 and through the first two thirds of 2013 he was probably even better, he was an absolute podium machine. Neither of those two deserve a mention here.

I'll say Prost in 1993 - because frankly, he was sh*t most of that year. But he won the championship, which is always a bit of a confusing little detail when looking at his performance that year. There were flashes of the same excellence he'd previously shown, but lots of the time he was all at sea - yet still a second quicker than the next non-Williams.

[ensign14]

BRM.  Firstly with the Stanley Steamer in 1977, secondly with a sportscar that couldn't do more than about eight miles at a time.

 

Porsche in F1.  After dominating with McLaren, the thing they came up with for Arrows was about as fast as continental drift.

[chunder27]

Lol at second post. Prost anounced his retirement because Frank had decided to take on Senna, and Prost had it written into his contract that this was not OK. Frank wouldn't budge so paid Alain full money in 94 for nothing in order to get Senna who he had been after more than any other driver.

 

Prost did what he always did, the absolute minimum. And won the championship easily, what else would you expect? Fireworks?  He did not have to over dramatise things like the previous incumbent of that car did.

 

I would say Alan Jones was a major disapointment.

 

Was never a huge Schmacuer fan so his being off the pace really on his comeback was not a disappointment to me.

 

THe Porsche V12 as Ensign says, what a woeful turd that was!

 

Alfa Romeo aswell, not many of their engines were any good in F1 from the 70's onwards.

 

the name Lotus even getting anywhere near a car with Maldonado on the side of it

Edited by chunder27, 15 December 2015 - 22:55.

[Nobody]

I would say Alan Jones was a major disapointment.

 

And if you've ever met him in person, he still is

[Myrvold]

It was suggested at the time that he was fastest because he missed his braking point (end of S1 is just before Les Combes) 

 

Haha, wouldn't surprise me tbh.

 

Still, I am convinced he would've scored points if he had the chance to actually learn the car.

[RedBaron]

Honda.

[R Soul]

It's a bit early to judge Honda. This year was awful but one should wait until the end of the comeback before saying the whole thing was disappointing.

 

The testing restrictions from '09 onwards make in very unfair on comeback drivers (and new ones) because they need to practice their skills without the pressure of having to also develop a setup and think about race strategy.

[HeadFirst]

I think I was one of the very few who were disappointed already on his Lotus stint. I love that he got those two victories, but let's be honest here, he kind of flattered Grosjean. I'm sure Vettel would have taken several wins with that car.

 

Vettel however had not taken 2 years off. Compare the top driver of the day against most any comeback driver and you would see the same.

[Dan333SP]

Even if it sounds unfair given the circumstances, but one disappointing comeback was Felipe Massa.

At the time of his crash he was one of the best drivers, he was even in 2009 impressive and after his accident he was never ever the same again.

I agree 100% with this. Pre-accident Massa was turning into someone I could see winning multiple titles, but a combination of the injury and humiliation by the team and Fernando seemed to revert him back to permanent #2 status. He still has flashes of brilliance, but nothing like when he was completely unbeatable at Turkey for 3 years in a row, for instance.

[Volcano70]

Hekki at Lotus 2013

Chandok's one-off for (then) Team Lotus in 2011

[Ross Stonefeld]

Mine would be pretty spectacularly unspectacular if I pull it off.

[ehagar]

Mine would be pretty spectacularly unspectacular if I pull it off.

 

Turnip fields beware.

[asdf24]

Alonso's comeback to McLaren.

[Rob G]

Lola's 1997 comeback as a constructor was a catastrophe. All that time and money spent developing a new car was completely wasted on one sole weekend failing to qualify by being 11 seconds off the pace.

 

Bruno Giacomelli's F1 return for Life in 1990 was inexplicable and predictably futile.

[chunder27]

Last time I saw Alan Jones, his nose was so red I thought yiu might be able to tell the vintage!

[RedBaron]

Why the Alan Jones hate, have I missed something?

[Disgrace]

It depends of course on what you class as successful, but I always felt embarrassed for Prost in 1993 to have to have the team place orders on a rookie and unaccomplished teammate in order to win races and the championship.  

 

Yes, he won the championship, and No, he didn't drive like he deserved it.

 

Brazil, Hungary and Donington Park spring to mind as absolutely appalling performances and I was not least bit surprised when he announced his retirement. 

 

What nonsense and notable silence about any technical problems. Prost was dominating Brazil before making a poor tyre call resulting in his retirement. Taking your method of disregarding the whole race prior to the error and assuming your good intentions, it's interesting that you would presumably think that Senna's performance at Monaco in '88 was equally "absolutely appalling." How odd that such a drive should go down in legend.

 

Lola's 1997 comeback as a constructor was a catastrophe. All that time and money spent developing a new car was completely wasted on one sole weekend failing to qualify by being 11 seconds off the pace.

 

Bruno Giacomelli's F1 return for Life in 1990 was inexplicable and predictably futile.

 

I think the problem was that Lola in fact didn't spend all that much time developing the car.

[RedBaron]

I think the problem was that Lola in fact didn't spend all that much time developing the car.

 

They had old Ford engines too and Ricardo Rosset behind the wheel.

 

Who is my nomination for failed come back, after Lola folded Ricardo Rosset was out for 1997 and came back with Tyrell in 1998. Racking up 5 DNQ compared to his team mate Takagi's 0.

 

 

 

Murray: A lot of people are debating if Ricardo Rosset is Formula 1 material.

 

Brundle: It's a fairly short debate Murray.

Edited by RedBaron, 16 December 2015 - 09:36.

[Disgrace]

I don't think the engines made any difference. Weren't Tyrrell running the same Ford V8?

[RedBaron]

I don't think the engines made any difference. Weren't Tyrrell running the same Ford V8?

 

Both a Ford V8 but I thought Lola was a gen behind. Wikipedia says

 

Tyrell: Ford ED4 3.0 V8

 

Lola: Ford ECA Zetec-R 3.0 V8

 

You could be right though, maybe that's just a name difference and the same engine.

 

Edit: Mastercard Lola page says:

 

The engine, the responsibility of Al Melling, was originally planned to be an in-house Lola V10, designed specifically to take into account the rear streamlining of the car and the underneath of the car in the area of the diffuser. Unfortunately, the engine was not developed in time and Lola were compelled to use the Ford ECA Zetec-R V8 engine, the same specification V8 as used by the Forti team in the 1996 season.

Edited by RedBaron, 16 December 2015 - 09:44.

[TennisUK]

His comeback was in 1994 and resulted in a pole and a win.   Admittedly he wasn't as strong during qualification as most expected but by Japan there was a real sign that he was back on form.   I do wonder if he might have won the 1995 championship in the Williams. 

He finished fourth in Japan, very nearly a whole minute behind Hill, also losing out to Alesi in the far less able Ferrari. He did get pole in Adelaide somehow, perhaps a street track was easier for his return than a more traditional racetrack? He was utterly out classed in the race (perhaps fitness related?) and I strongly suspect he would have been as outclassed in 95 by Hill as much as was in '94.

 

Perhaps he could have fitted the car a little better, though.

[PlatenGlass]

I agree 100% with this. Pre-accident Massa was turning into someone I could see winning multiple titles, but a combination of the injury and humiliation by the team and Fernando seemed to revert him back to permanent #2 status. He still has flashes of brilliance, but nothing like when he was completely unbeatable at Turkey for 3 years in a row, for instance.

I think pre-accident Massa was decent, but this was up against an already-fading Raikkonen. And 2008 was a scrappy season for all the title contenders. The difference being that this scrappy season was Massa's best year, whereas it wasn't Hamilton's. I wouldn't say he was completely unbeatable at Turkey for three years either. Schumacher should have won in 2006 but he messed up his qualifying lap - he was on higher fuel than Massa and was faster. Completely unbeatable just meant that he was better than Raikkonen for two years at that track because the Ferrari was clearly the fastest there in the years he won. And if you have two fairly evenly matched team-mates, over a near 20-race season, you're going to find some tracks where one driver beats the other one twice even if by chance. And accident or no accident, he was always likely to be overshadowed by Alonso.

[SpeedRacer`]

He finished fourth in Japan, very nearly a whole minute behind Hill, also losing out to Alesi in the far less able Ferrari. He did get pole in Adelaide somehow, perhaps a street track was easier for his return than a more traditional racetrack? He was utterly out classed in the race (perhaps fitness related?) and I strongly suspect he would have been as outclassed in 95 by Hill as much as was in '94.

 

Perhaps he could have fitted the car a little better, though.

 

His qualifying pace was still very good (pole in France too) but yes it appeared he didn't have the physical stamina any more, remember cars those days were harder to drive than today's (plus he had a bit of timber).

 

He wouldn't have won the title in 1995. Assuming he had the same bad luck DC had in the #2 car in 1995, even without the mistakes I think he would at best have finished a handful of points either side of Hill.

[SpeedRacer`]

I think pre-accident Massa was decent, but this was up against an already-fading Raikkonen. And 2008 was a scrappy season for all the title contenders. The difference being that this scrappy season was Massa's best year, whereas it wasn't Hamilton's. I wouldn't say he was completely unbeatable at Turkey for three years either. Schumacher should have won in 2006 but he messed up his qualifying lap - he was on higher fuel than Massa and was faster. Completely unbeatable just meant that he was better than Raikkonen for two years at that track because the Ferrari was clearly the fastest there in the years he won. And if you have two fairly evenly matched team-mates, over a near 20-race season, you're going to find some tracks where one driver beats the other one twice even if by chance. And accident or no accident, he was always likely to be overshadowed by Alonso.

 

Also in the Turkey 2006 race Schumacher was running just behind Massa with a lot more fuel on board. He surely would've jumped him at the stops if it wasn't for the SC that force him to queue in the pits

[stewie]

Alan Jones, 1985/6.

Although he did finish 3rd in a one off CART appearance.

[sopa]

Haha, wouldn't surprise me tbh.

 

Still, I am convinced he would've scored points if he had the chance to actually learn the car.

 

Umm, no...

 

Fisichella had 6 (??) races in Ferrari and never scored. And Fisichella fared far better than Badoer.

 

Badoer in his comeback really was BAD. It was on level with no other than Yuji Ide. I mean it is not the matter of him being just last, but he was way off the pace. All 19 other drivers (even complete rookie like Alguersuari) looked like professional racing drivers compared to him. Also the problem was that field was very tight. We could have all 10 teams/car within 1 second. In such close competition Luca stood no chance.

 

I do think Badoer was far better 10 years earlier. Not your top driver, but a solid driver for a backmarker car. And IIRC he was marginally better than Gene, but was cruelly denied a 4th place finish at the Nurburgring.

Edited by sopa, 16 December 2015 - 11:34.

[Spillage]

A couple of drivers who never really came back from serious injury:

 

Karl Wendlinger looked a very handy driver before his Monaco accident which, by his own admission, made it impossible for him to operate at 100% anymore.

 

Olivier Panis - looked very good indeed at the start of his career. Won the Monaco Grand Prix, nearly won in Spain a year later, grabbed a podium in Brazil, ran second in Argentina before his car failed... all the signs pointed towards a future world champion. Martin Brundle certainly thought so, here rating Panis as one of the best drivers over the first half of 1997 and insisting that his Monaco win would not be his last. Alas, whilst he made a comeback as a solid midfield driver after breaking his legs in Montreal, the spark was gone. He never finished on the podium again.

[TennisUK]

His qualifying pace was still very good (pole in France too) but yes it appeared he didn't have the physical stamina any more, remember cars those days were harder to drive than today's (plus he had a bit of timber).

He qualified second in France behind Damon.

[sopa]

 

Karl Wendlinger looked a very handy driver before his Monaco accident which, by his own admission, made it impossible for him to operate at 100% anymore.

 

Looking at 1995 qualifying gaps, it is quite shocking how far off Wendlinger was compared to Frentzen. Gaps between drivers appeared bigger back then anyway, but still...

[chunder27]

To be fair to Lola, anyhting Al Melling did was doomed to failure, he tried to build a Norton V8 motorbike doidnt he and that was a disaster.

 

I think he designed the TVR straight six?  But that was about it.

[sopa]

 Anthony Davidson in 2007/08 maybe?

 

Davidson may not have been spectacular in 2007/08, but he appeared better than in 2002 or 2005... To be fair, in 2005 his engine blew up immediately, so we didn't get any glimpse of his performance...