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Budgets and team sizes.


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#1 RPM40

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:30

Is there any source for accurate team budgets?

 

I heard Hamilton in a recent interview say Mercedes had roughly 1200 people on the F1 team! Thats more than twice the type of numbers I've heard mentioned for a team previously.

 

I've often wondered how McLaren stack up to this, they obviously don't have a gigantic car manufacturer supporting their core team and don't really have much sponsorship to speak of. Surely they aren't really a top team budget wise?



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:57

The most recent rumoured numbers


1. Red Bull Racing (€266m + €35.7m + €167m) = €468.7m
2. Mercedes (€122m + €212.4m + €133m) = €467.4m
3. McLaren Honda (€144.5m + €216.5m + €104m) = €465m
4. Ferrari (€208.5m + €34.5m + €175m) = €418m
5. Williams (€52.5m + €22.9m + €111m) = €186.4m
6. Lotus (€69.5m + €13.6m + €56m) = €139.1m
7. Toro Rosso (€68m + €9.45m + €60m) = €137.45m
8. Force India (€49.5m + €12.2m + €68m) = €129.7m
9. Sauber (€44m + €9.25m + €50m) = €103.25m
10. Manor (€0.5m + €32.5m + €50m) = €83m

http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

I guess Lewis means with 1200 the whole personal (cleaners, secretary, engineers, etc). And I also guess that he means the factories in Brackley AND Brixworth.

McLaren is supported by Honda. And the few sponsors they have are paying actually well.

Edited by Marklar, 28 December 2015 - 09:58.


#3 molpid

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:02

How the hell is Red Bull getting more TV/FOM money than Mercedes?



#4 Marklar

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:05

They have much more 'historical bonus'

#5 YoungGun

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:22

Red Bull numbers look wrong, out spending Williams by about 3:1 with little to show.



#6 FPV GTHO

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 10:27

How the hell is Red Bull getting more TV/FOM money than Mercedes?


4 CC's vs 2, they blinked earlier than Mercedes when FOTA broke apart and Mercedes dragged their own negotiations out with Bernie.

#7 noikeee

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:20

Red Bull numbers look wrong, out spending Williams by about 3:1 with little to show.

I don't want to get into another tedius argument on whether it's unfair Red Bull haven't got a competitive engine, or whether they're entitled whiners, but the numbers don't look that wrong when you look at the quality of each team's chassis, the power unit accounts for most of the large difference to the competitive order.

 

Main overachievers/underachievers are probably Force India compared to Lotus. Same engine and much better results for the team with the weaker budget.


Edited by noikeee, 28 December 2015 - 11:22.


#8 Kristian

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:25

I remember Lotus making a point about resource restriction by counting the number of cars in Mercedes factory on Google Earth and having a big rant about it  :lol:



#9 Talisman

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:13

I remember Lotus making a point about resource restriction by counting the number of cars in Mercedes factory on Google Earth and having a big rant about it :lol:


That was Renault, comparing their manpower unfavourably with that of Mercedes powertrains at brixworth. I think its the Renault effort that's understaffed, not Mercedes being overstaffed.

Going back to the OP I suspect McLaren and Honda together have something approaching 1200 staff, ditto Ferrari.

#10 HistoryFan

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:21

The most recent rumoured numbers


1. Red Bull Racing (€266m + €35.7m + €167m) = €468.7m
2. Mercedes (€122m + €212.4m + €133m) = €467.4m
3. McLaren Honda (€144.5m + €216.5m + €104m) = €465m
4. Ferrari (€208.5m + €34.5m + €175m) = €418m
5. Williams (€52.5m + €22.9m + €111m) = €186.4m
6. Lotus (€69.5m + €13.6m + €56m) = €139.1m
7. Toro Rosso (€68m + €9.45m + €60m) = €137.45m
8. Force India (€49.5m + €12.2m + €68m) = €129.7m
9. Sauber (€44m + €9.25m + €50m) = €103.25m
10. Manor (€0.5m + €32.5m + €50m) = €83m

http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

I guess Lewis means with 1200 the whole personal (cleaners, secretary, engineers, etc). And I also guess that he means the factories in Brackley AND Brixworth.

McLaren is supported by Honda. And the few sponsors they have are paying actually well.

 

That's an huge gab between 4th and 5th. We really need a budget cap...
 



#11 Clatter

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:32

Red Bull numbers look wrong, out spending Williams by about 3:1 with little to show.

You mean apart from championship wins?

We're you expecting them to give up just because Renault appeared to? Williams spend is down to their budget, if they had the budget of RBR then they would be spending it.

#12 Clatter

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 12:34

How the hell is Red Bull getting more TV/FOM money than Mercedes?

Just goes to show how stupid the historical payout really is.

#13 Nathan

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 14:14

 

How the hell is Red Bull getting more TV/FOM money than Mercedes?

It is because of the four championships in recent years.  There are more bonus payments than just historic status, and these are based on recent success.  Next year Mercedes will see a significant leap from their second championship.  It is similar to how Caterham/Marussia/Manor received a higher payment after finishing 10th twice in three succeeding seasons. There is in effect one year delay.  If Red Bull keep performing as they have been the past two seasons you will see their bonus erode..

 

 

That's an huge gab between 4th and 5th. We really need a budget cap...

But how do you enforce it?  F1 isn't like football and those types of sports where you can cap a players wage.  For example much of Mercedes GPs recent success was years of behind the scenes R&D.  We only know now how much effort they put in.  What stops an auto maker from billing the auto companies R&D and gifting/licencing the technology to the GP team for a deep discount?  The same can be said of staff.  Who is Mercedes AG, who is Mercedes GP?


Edited by Nathan, 28 December 2015 - 14:18.


#14 FPV GTHO

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 15:43

Red Bulls regular payments will erode, but not the CCB payments. Mercedes went up because they won the second title, its not the same as the other payments such as scoring 10th 2 out of 3 years. 



#15 shonguiz

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 19:34

Autosport figures seemed more believable

#16 4Wheeldrift

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 23:29

An F1 team will spend every penny it has (and probably a few it doesn't.  

 

The only way of curbing spend, they say, is to limit the wingspan of team personnel's private planes!



#17 RPM40

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 09:42

I'm still surprised to see McLaren with that much budget. What is the source of their money? I wouldn't imagine the newly formed road devision being that profitable and its certainly not WCC money.



#18 Treads

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 11:39

The numbers above are more than double those put forward by dieter rencken. I don't believe them for a second.

#19 sopa

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 11:48

The most recent rumoured numbers


1. Red Bull Racing (€266m + €35.7m + €167m) = €468.7m
2. Mercedes (€122m + €212.4m + €133m) = €467.4m
3. McLaren Honda (€144.5m + €216.5m + €104m) = €465m
4. Ferrari (€208.5m + €34.5m + €175m) = €418m
5. Williams (€52.5m + €22.9m + €111m) = €186.4m
6. Lotus (€69.5m + €13.6m + €56m) = €139.1m
7. Toro Rosso (€68m + €9.45m + €60m) = €137.45m
8. Force India (€49.5m + €12.2m + €68m) = €129.7m
9. Sauber (€44m + €9.25m + €50m) = €103.25m
10. Manor (€0.5m + €32.5m + €50m) = €83m

http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

I guess Lewis means with 1200 the whole personal (cleaners, secretary, engineers, etc). And I also guess that he means the factories in Brackley AND Brixworth.

McLaren is supported by Honda. And the few sponsors they have are paying actually well.

 

Talk about two-tier Formula One. LOL. First four and then the rest...



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#20 Clatter

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 12:30

I'm still surprised to see McLaren with that much budget. What is the source of their money? I wouldn't imagine the newly formed road devision being that profitable and its certainly not WCC money.

Honda.

#21 Wuzak

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 22:59

The numbers above are more than double those put forward by dieter rencken. I don't believe them for a second.


Rencken's numbers were in GBP.

 

So, there is a conversion factor there, but not double.



#22 Nathan

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 23:40

Would Companies House given a fairly accurate assessment of most UK teams?



#23 Gorma

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 17:53

The most recent rumoured numbers


1. Red Bull Racing (€266m + €35.7m + €167m) = €468.7m
2. Mercedes (€122m + €212.4m + €133m) = €467.4m
3. McLaren Honda (€144.5m + €216.5m + €104m) = €465m
4. Ferrari (€208.5m + €34.5m + €175m) = €418m
5. Williams (€52.5m + €22.9m + €111m) = €186.4m
6. Lotus (€69.5m + €13.6m + €56m) = €139.1m
7. Toro Rosso (€68m + €9.45m + €60m) = €137.45m
8. Force India (€49.5m + €12.2m + €68m) = €129.7m
9. Sauber (€44m + €9.25m + €50m) = €103.25m
10. Manor (€0.5m + €32.5m + €50m) = €83m

http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

I guess Lewis means with 1200 the whole personal (cleaners, secretary, engineers, etc). And I also guess that he means the factories in Brackley AND Brixworth.

McLaren is supported by Honda. And the few sponsors they have are paying actually well.

It is unfortunate that people writing these stories don't undestand the difference between spending and income. 



#24 Anderis

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 20:56

It is because of the four championships in recent years.  There are more bonus payments than just historic status, and these are based on recent success.  Next year Mercedes will see a significant leap from their second championship.  It is similar to how Caterham/Marussia/Manor received a higher payment after finishing 10th twice in three succeeding seasons. There is in effect one year delay.  If Red Bull keep performing as they have been the past two seasons you will see their bonus erode..

Is it really like that? I read more than once that there are fixed bonuses that were negotiated by teams independently.

 

Something like €100m for Ferrari, 80€m for Red Bull, €30m for Mercedes and McLaren and €10m for Williams.



#25 Talisman

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Posted 02 January 2016 - 22:01

Is it really like that? I read more than once that there are fixed bonuses that were negotiated by teams independently.

 

Something like €100m for Ferrari, 80€m for Red Bull, €30m for Mercedes and McLaren and €10m for Williams.

 

There is a complicated system whereby the teams get some fixed bonuses for history and another set of bonuses based on recent championship success as nathan described.  IIRC McLaren will drop out of this bonus this year to have their place taken by Mercedes.  The others IIRC are RBR and Ferrari.



#26 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 01:39

How the hell is Red Bull getting more TV/FOM money than Mercedes?

 

Politics.  :)

 

 

There is a complicated system whereby the teams get some fixed bonuses for history Bernie political favours

 

Fixed that for you. ;)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 03 January 2016 - 01:39.