Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 5 votes

V6 Turbo Hybrid Sound [merged]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3996 replies to this topic

#3951 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 March 2018 - 08:26

The new Indycars run a V6 Twin-Turbo and sound much better than F1 has sounded for years.  They are not loud but they sound good, at least on TV.  I can't wait to hear them in person.

Plus they went with LOWER down force instead of higher like F1.  The racing should be very exciting.  The cars are lighter and shorter too.  Definitely going in a much better direction.

 

I know I will be going to go to an Indycar race this year and then hopefully more but definitely will not be going to any F1 races.

 

 As for how long the current F1 cars are, about the longest race car ever on a track I can think of are the 1970&1971 Porsche 917LH, with their massive overhang. I've searched to find out how long they are but couldn't find a figure for the length of those cars.

However....

 

This morning I wondered about another race car used on track that I felt to be a contender if it comes to be among the longest track racing cars ever.

Also from that same era BTW.

 

The Dodge Charger Daytona and the Plymouth Superbird... (The winged wonders of NASCAR)

Length for the Daytona:  575.3  cm, though with a wheelbase of `only` 297 cm. (i.e.  length/wheelbase ratio: 1.94 !)

 

Current F1's are about as long but with much longer wheelbases, (up to 3.75 meter, longer than a number of small hatchbacks)....

 

Just an approval as of how awfully `off scale` the shape and dimensions of F1 cars have gone because of Rule makers refusing to re-introduce some kind of ground effects while still wanting to satisfy the need for speed expressed by so many F1 fans......



Advertisement

#3952 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

RainyAfterlifeDaylight
  • Member

  • 4,684 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 21 March 2018 - 09:12

How to produce Hybrid PU noise 😀



#3953 TecnoRacing

TecnoRacing
  • Member

  • 1,796 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 21 March 2018 - 10:03

 As for how long the current F1 cars are, about the longest race car ever on a track I can think of are the 1970&1971 Porsche 917LH, with their massive overhang. I've searched to find out how long they are but couldn't find a figure for the length of those cars.

However....

 

This morning I wondered about another race car used on track that I felt to be a contender if it comes to be among the longest track racing cars ever.

Also from that same era BTW.

 

The Dodge Charger Daytona and the Plymouth Superbird... (The winged wonders of NASCAR)

Length for the Daytona:  575.3  cm, though with a wheelbase of `only` 297 cm. (i.e.  length/wheelbase ratio: 1.94 !)

 

Current F1's are about as long but with much longer wheelbases, (up to 3.75 meter, longer than a number of small hatchbacks)....

 

Just an approval as of how awfully `off scale` the shape and dimensions of F1 cars have gone because of Rule makers refusing to re-introduce some kind of ground effects while still wanting to satisfy the need for speed expressed by so many F1 fans......

 

 

The 1969 917 Longtail, which was I think was quite similar dimensionally to the later longtails was 4780mm.

 

69lm12u.jpg

 

The 917 in general though was a deceptively small racecar!

 

18n7706yee0iwjpg.jpg



#3954 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 March 2018 - 11:49

The 1969 917 Longtail, which was I think was quite similar dimensionally to the later longtails was 4780mm.

 

69lm12u.jpg

 

The 917 in general though was a deceptively small racecar!

 

18n7706yee0iwjpg.jpg

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Yeah I remember a pic of that little 914 next to a 917K and the 917 wasn't really dwarfing the 914.

But I've seen that Le Mans `71 Martini #21 in real on two different occasions and that was, at least to see in the circumstancs I saw it, a big, large car.

I agree with you that the '70s and '71 are likely in about the same range for length, thus below 5 meters.

 

F1's are truly in every meaning off the word: `off the scales` ....

 

Henri



#3955 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 21 March 2018 - 12:07

 

A Taylor Swift fan*

 

 

 

*Well, insofar as 1989 is one of my favourite albums.

 

Why not try Kimbra (as in Gotye's "Somebody That I used to know" featuring Kimbra) or Janelle Monae?  :)  They deserve to be as popular as Taylor Swift, and I don't understand why they are not.  :confused:

 


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 March 2018 - 12:28.


#3956 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 March 2018 - 13:51

Why not try Kimbra (as in Gotye's "Somebody That I used to know" featuring Kimbra) or Janelle Monae?  :)  They deserve to be as popular as Taylor Swift, and I don't understand why they are not.  :confused:

 

 

 

 

Phew, and I was in fear of derailing this thread because of mentioning the length of the current F1 cars compared with other large race cars of the past .......   :)  :)



#3957 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 21 March 2018 - 14:05

 

The 917 in general though was a deceptively small racecar!

 

18n7706yee0iwjpg.jpg

 

Back in the 90's, the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart had several 917's on display, including this car (or 21) and the Pink Pig.



#3958 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 2,440 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 21 March 2018 - 16:08

How to produce Hybrid PU noise

 

BS. This sound 100% better! :clap:



#3959 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 23 March 2018 - 12:53

Keep the music talk/references in a different thread.

 

F1 cars being long is not really a problem. That is entirely a function of the rules/cars designed to go fast.

Biggest challenge is the cars being unable to be close to the car in front, in the corners.

 

I still believe a lower weight would shrink the cars in length.

 

Is there a limit to how long the floor can be? does it have to be so and so far behind the front wheel?

 

I predict the cars to get a tiny bit longer for next year again. Prime candidate is ofc. Mercedes.



Advertisement

#3960 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:25

The wheelbase is not specified in the regulations.

 

Technically there is a minimum wheelbase specified because of the regulations on the minimum plank size but this minimum is very short, 1330 mm.  The plank has to start 430 mm behind the front wheel center line and be at least 900 mm long and end at the rear wheel center line.  In reality the plank is much longer and the wheelbase is much longer, like 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 times as long.

 

The overhangs are limited to 710 mm behind the rear wheel center line and 1200 mm in front of the front wheel center line.



#3961 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:55

Keep the music talk/references in a different thread.

 

F1 cars being long is not really a problem. That is entirely a function of the rules/cars designed to go fast.

Biggest challenge is the cars being unable to be close to the car in front, in the corners.

 

I still believe a lower weight would shrink the cars in length.

 

Is there a limit to how long the floor can be? does it have to be so and so far behind the front wheel?

 

I predict the cars to get a tiny bit longer for next year again. Prime candidate is ofc. Mercedes.

 

 

Music talks and references are least are something different to read about and have an occasional smile about. And it's a different manner of looking onto the problem.

 

 

If specifying lower weights will lead to lighter cars, I am not sure. Massive aero advantages are often a reason to accept certain disadvantages as long as the netto result is that the car becomes faster..

But it will likely work the other way around: Bring in rules that reduce the overall length of the cars one (overall lengt or maximum wheelbase and we wil get lighter cars but a good chance they will be slower....

 

Henri



#3962 SCHUEYFAN

SCHUEYFAN
  • Member

  • 500 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 25 March 2018 - 15:04

Well race one for 2018 and the cars sound a bit louder, does anyone know what the trackside db level is?



#3963 AlexanderF1

AlexanderF1
  • Member

  • 215 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 25 March 2018 - 15:10

what happened to the onboard exhaust mics. seems eithir only a few cars had it or they completly ditched it for the race. although even in practise the cars that had it sounded worse than the late 2017 sound especialy on downshifts/overrun (don't know if anyone else noticed)



#3964 nickyvida

nickyvida
  • Member

  • 350 posts
  • Joined: August 15

Posted 25 March 2018 - 15:16

Engine sounds still crap, worse, if you ask me. Nothing good ever can come out of a V6T



#3965 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 26 March 2018 - 02:34

Back in 2015 - the cars sound louder now.

Back in 2016 - the cars sound louder now.

Back in 2017 - the cars sound louder now.

Now in 2018 - the cars sound louder now.

 

No...

They don't.

 

They are still crappy-sounding, turbo-choked 1.6 liter V6's.



#3966 SCHUEYFAN

SCHUEYFAN
  • Member

  • 500 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 26 March 2018 - 03:00

I'll get to hear in person if they're any louder in Montreal with front row seats but I fear they're just as pathetic. Let's hope the new engine rules are a step forward, isn't there a June deadline?

#3967 nickyvida

nickyvida
  • Member

  • 350 posts
  • Joined: August 15

Posted 26 March 2018 - 05:10

I'll get to hear in person if they're any louder in Montreal with front row seats but I fear they're just as pathetic. Let's hope the new engine rules are a step forward, isn't there a June deadline?

They're the same as 2017 and before. And increasing the rpm in the new engine rules won't change a thing. It just will be a higher pitched of an awful sounding sound. It's a flawed way to improve the noise as long as the base engine is the V6T. It'll never be as good as the V8/V10/V12.


Edited by nickyvida, 26 March 2018 - 05:11.


#3968 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 6,973 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 26 March 2018 - 05:16

Well race one for 2018 and the cars sound a bit louder, does anyone know what the trackside db level is?

Sorry but I was trackside on the Friday and Saturday at Albert Park, its still exactly the same. It's ****.

I had a lady friend accompany me and it was her first time at an F1 event. To say she was disappointed with the sound is an understatement and she wanted the Minardi used for the speed comparison to keep circulating... thats what she had expected.

It's just not right when the V8 Supercars and Porsches make the current F1s sound impotent. I was there in 2014 when this hybrid era started, not a thing has changed.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 26 March 2018 - 05:17.


#3969 nickyvida

nickyvida
  • Member

  • 350 posts
  • Joined: August 15

Posted 26 March 2018 - 05:48

Sorry but I was trackside on the Friday and Saturday at Albert Park, its still exactly the same. It's ****.

I had a lady friend accompany me and it was her first time at an F1 event. To say she was disappointed with the sound is an understatement and she wanted the Minardi used for the speed comparison to keep circulating... thats what she had expected.

It's just not right when the V8 Supercars and Porsches make the current F1s sound impotent. I was there in 2014 when this hybrid era started, not a thing has changed.

This

 

I heard the F1 V8s live at trackside and the experience was magical. You hear the engine shrieks slamwalling you on either side of the grandstands on the main straights, and making you feel like its exciting just to be there, that there's something monstrous and fast going on and that it demands your attention. Today's F1 cars are no more distinguishable from an eco Prius except for its speed. Boring, turnoff and makes you lose interest immediately coupled with no overtaking and mercedes dominance. 2021 will just be the same.

 

 

 

 

The V10 was bloody amazing. :cry:


Edited by nickyvida, 26 March 2018 - 06:00.


#3970 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:02

chop one Cylinder off. Straight 5 would sound glorious. Also flat fuel flow and you got a beastly engine coming up.



#3971 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,036 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:27

Yesterday here in Oz the Shannons Insurance adds with v10 noises in the background was far more exciting sound wise than the race!

V6s are boring droning things at the best of times,, and a 1.5 turbo version even flatter.

They may go well but are dead BOR i n g.



#3972 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,740 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:37

This

 

I heard the F1 V8s live at trackside and the experience was magical. You hear the engine shrieks slamwalling you on either side of the grandstands on the main straights, and making you feel like its exciting just to be there, that there's something monstrous and fast going on and that it demands your attention. Today's F1 cars are no more distinguishable from an eco Prius except for its speed. Boring, turnoff and makes you lose interest immediately coupled with no overtaking and mercedes dominance. 2021 will just be the same.

 

 

 

 

The V10 was bloody amazing. :cry:

 

The V8s were not magical. It was just loud. Very flat sound and quite hollow sounding. 

 

In 2006 the V8s were not so bad but they revved to 20,000rpm and they had more music to them. 

 

The V10s are on another planet and the V12s sounded borderline obscene. 



#3973 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:49

Have to agree on that. The V8s was gettting real crazy right before the rpm limit and the durability chances. They sounded nutty with the resonator chambers++

 

They honestly would have been better with a simple air restrictor instead of the rpm limit. 


Edited by MatsNorway, 26 March 2018 - 08:50.


#3974 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,498 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:59

The rev limit, combined with the design freeze made the V8 quite bad soundwise. Rev limit + open development would have been better. But no still no warm feelings for the current stock.



#3975 Balthazar

Balthazar
  • Member

  • 145 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:04

Well race one for 2018 and the cars sound a bit louder, does anyone know what the trackside db level is?

 

I was planning to get a level reading from an app but my iGadget got fried in the rain on Saturday...

 

yes, an app isn't as accurate as an industrially calibrated meter, but my university wasn't likely to lend one out for the weekend. The cars were a whisker too loud for me to be comfortable for the duration of the race - loud enough for me to elect to wear ear protection (I am an Audiologist so tend to look after my ears anyway). In regard to the sound quality, they weren't as offensive as some make out them to be. I thought they sounded raspy and racecar-like enough, in fact I liked the note. So there.

 

I have been fortunate enough (and I've shared this before) to have heard every iteration of Formula 1 engine track-side since 1985. Every engine (or 'power unit') has it's own character. We all loved the sonorous nature of the NA V10 and V12 motors (and the bigger-capacity V8s), the 2.4l V8s were not nearly as ear-gasmic  (just loud). The earlier turbos were cool in their own right, even if they gave me a nose bleed and a headache. I think the current V6 turbo sound is just fine for Formula 1 in 2018 (even if the Minardi 2-seater V10 alarm clock still stirred me in the trousers).

 

:)


Edited by Balthazar, 26 March 2018 - 09:10.


#3976 nickyvida

nickyvida
  • Member

  • 350 posts
  • Joined: August 15

Posted 26 March 2018 - 10:23

The V8s were not magical. It was just loud. Very flat sound and quite hollow sounding. 

 

In 2006 the V8s were not so bad but they revved to 20,000rpm and they had more music to them. 

 

The V10s are on another planet and the V12s sounded borderline obscene. 

 

 

Sorry i have to disagree on that. i heard it live, man, the first pass, no even before i could see the cars passing by, they were already eargasmic. That was worth every penny i shelled out for the ticket especially when the engines were near the rev limit or kicking down. Anyway, even if it's flat to you, it's still miles better than the V6T we have right now. That sound coming from PU right now is a prime example term a turn off if you were to look it up in the dictionary.

 

 

I was planning to get a level reading from an app but my iGadget got fried in the rain on Saturday...

 

yes, an app isn't as accurate as an industrially calibrated meter, but my university wasn't likely to lend one out for the weekend. The cars were a whisker too loud for me to be comfortable for the duration of the race - loud enough for me to elect to wear ear protection (I am an Audiologist so tend to look after my ears anyway). In regard to the sound quality, they weren't as offensive as some make out them to be. I thought they sounded raspy and racecar-like enough, in fact I liked the note. So there.

 

I have been fortunate enough (and I've shared this before) to have heard every iteration of Formula 1 engine track-side since 1985. Every engine (or 'power unit') has it's own character. We all loved the sonorous nature of the NA V10 and V12 motors (and the bigger-capacity V8s), the 2.4l V8s were not nearly as ear-gasmic  (just loud). The earlier turbos were cool in their own right, even if they gave me a nose bleed and a headache. I think the current V6 turbo sound is just fine for Formula 1 in 2018 (even if the Minardi 2-seater V10 alarm clock still stirred me in the trousers).

 

:)

 

Thats where i have to disagree. The current V6T is not at all fine for F1 in 2018. It is one of the reasons why F1 is going down the drain. Boring, uninspiring and sounds like a Prius. Going back to NA engines, would give F1 a shot in the arm like no other. When normal supercars like the LaFerrari sound more exciting and inspiring than the F1 cars, you know that F1 is not okay.


Edited by nickyvida, 26 March 2018 - 10:23.


#3977 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,740 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:22

Sorry i have to disagree on that. i heard it live, man, the first pass, no even before i could see the cars passing by, they were already eargasmic. That was worth every penny i shelled out for the ticket especially when the engines were near the rev limit or kicking down. Anyway, even if it's flat to you, it's still miles better than the V6T we have right now. That sound coming from PU right now is a prime example term a turn off if you were to look it up in the dictionary.

 

 

I've attended the following Grand Prixs:

 

2002 France

2004 Britain

2006 France

2008 Britain GP Testing 

2009 Britain 

2011 Britain 

2012 Belgium 

2013 Britain

2017 Austrian

 

I've also been to Goodwood Festival of Speed more times than I can count.

 

I found the GP2 cars in the early 2010s to sound better than the F1 cars, simply because they were more musical. I think the 8-1 exhaust did it.

 

The 2004 British GP was magical. The cars sounded like banshee demons; the BAR Honda in particular would physically impact your chest on every upshift (before we had seamless shift boxes, they had a proper bang on upshift) and were terrifyingly fast. 

 

The 2006 French GP was my first time with the V8s and I was fearing the worst. They weren't as bad as I had feared and in fact, the Honda & BMW engines sounded really rather nice at 20,000rpm. The Mercedes engine sounded broken (really coarse sound). They still lacked any real harmonics in the sound though, that had made the prior V10s so pleasant to listen to (at a distance, the V10s sounded like a finely tuned musical instrument and as they past by, sounded like Satan doing something naughty). And still, the rev-limited (to 16,750rpm with an air restrictor also) V10 had music to it that the V8s tried to compensate with a shriek. It wasn't a replacement.

 

The V8s at the 2009 British GP was a real disappointment - when they sounded like they were about to get going and "come on the pipe" they shifted up. They sounded strangled at 18,000rpm - at the year prior they still sounded proper at 19,000rpm. That last 1000rpm made all the difference.

 

Then last summer at the Austrian race I was pleasantly surprised by the V6Ts. They were loud if they past you by on full-chat but were deathly silent at anything else. On full overrun you could barely hear them until you got the wicked sound of the downshifts. Brap Brap Brap. Sounded like a maniacal dog. 

 

At Goodwood last year they had 2x V12 F1 cars (Mclaren Honda & Ferrari) on the hill and they did sound incredible but it's not what I remember as F1 since I am a child of the 90s, I remember the V10s. 

 

So what do I want to hear in the future? I've come to accept that the V10s aren't coming back; nice whilst it lasted. But they should look to improve it - more revs would help the V6s but I think more cylinders would be more appropriate. If they could scale up to a 2.1 Litre V8 Turbo it would make a drastic difference to the sound, even keeping at 12,000rpm or so. 



#3978 nickyvida

nickyvida
  • Member

  • 350 posts
  • Joined: August 15

Posted 26 March 2018 - 12:10

I've attended the SGP back in 2008 and 2010 and watched the rest of the races up to 2014 on TV. Prior to that, i was too young to attend and Singapore wasn't part of the GPs list yet. I was too young to hear the V10s live, but i grew up watching it starting from 2002. The V8 was the closest thing i could identify with and my first time i heard an F1 engine live, hence why i chose to highlight it on my post and also the fact that going from that, straight to the V6T in 2014 was too much to take. The drop off in sound quality and (again i heard it live near the track, since i live near the SGP circuit,and it was a turn off) was too much. I have heard better V6s than what F1 are serving up now and that's from a normal road car V6. I haven't been watching primarily or attending races anymore because of the switch to  the V6T and Mercedes dominance. I guess you could say i was spoilt, but going from the explosive V8s to the vacumn cleaner V6s was just a tad too much.

 

 

The unrestricted V10s are the best, i have to admit, sound wise.

 

There's always a chance that the V10s might come back, you just have to make your voices and opinions heard until the powers that be take notice which is why i've been posting although i havent watched any races since 2014. I would scrap the turbo and return to a NA format again. THAT, i feel, was what F1 was all about at its peak.  3.5L V10, a modern one with direct injection, revs capped to 14,000rpm as they were in 1989, no DRS, no hybrid MGU or KERS and we're good to go. Sometimes less technology is better and this is one of the cases that fits the theme of F1. That would get me watching F1 again so fast and many others, i would suspect too.

 

Cheap, cost effective(in terms of engine longevity and around the rpms F1 rules are about to be capped at anyway) and more fun than a turbo engine.


Edited by nickyvida, 26 March 2018 - 12:14.


#3979 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 6,973 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 26 March 2018 - 12:21

I'll join in on this. I attended almost every Australian Grand Prix between 1999 and 2006 (missed out on 2004) and, quite frankly, nothing comes close to the V10s in their pomp. They were brutal, vicious and intoxicating.

It's nothing like that now. Not from a spectating sense anyway.

Advertisement

#3980 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 March 2018 - 17:48

Fuel restricted V8 turbo will be the biggest disappointment the fans have ever had. More cylinders only give good sound if they get the proper mixture.

 

You will need the right fuel/air mix, the right compression and the right cam. And fuel starved V8 turbo engines will sound like a production car. You must push the limits to get something interesting. Going down in engine size will give you the pressure, the scream and the revs. That way fuel flow keeps the manufacturers interested and the fans.

 

And like i have said a thousand times before. you will not need rpm limit with fuel flow limit at a sensible level.


Edited by MatsNorway, 26 March 2018 - 17:50.


#3981 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 26 March 2018 - 18:33

I hate fuel restrictions in racing.  Too many times they have to dial back the car to stretch the rationed fuel.  Blech.  Racing should be about being able to go all out whenever you want to.

I do not have a better idea on how to cripple the cars though.  That seems to be mandatory in racing now so they don't go faster.

 

I do think F1 should have drastically reduced the down force instead of increasing it.  That would slow the cars down in the corners where the most crashes happen.  Plus their would be more passing and the racing would be better if the cars could run closer together.



#3982 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 March 2018 - 18:39

Fuel flow limited and fuel limited is not the same

 

I agree, high down force is bad for racing, but the cars are too heavy to be fast without big fat wings.


Edited by MatsNorway, 26 March 2018 - 18:40.


#3983 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,681 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 26 March 2018 - 18:43

I've attended the following Grand Prixs:

 

2002 France

2004 Britain

2006 France

2008 Britain GP Testing 

2009 Britain 

2011 Britain 

2012 Belgium 

2013 Britain

2017 Austrian

 

I've also been to Goodwood Festival of Speed more times than I can count.

 

I found the GP2 cars in the early 2010s to sound better than the F1 cars, simply because they were more musical. I think the 8-1 exhaust did it.

 

The 2004 British GP was magical. The cars sounded like banshee demons; the BAR Honda in particular would physically impact your chest on every upshift (before we had seamless shift boxes, they had a proper bang on upshift) and were terrifyingly fast. 

 

The 2006 French GP was my first time with the V8s and I was fearing the worst. They weren't as bad as I had feared and in fact, the Honda & BMW engines sounded really rather nice at 20,000rpm. The Mercedes engine sounded broken (really coarse sound). They still lacked any real harmonics in the sound though, that had made the prior V10s so pleasant to listen to (at a distance, the V10s sounded like a finely tuned musical instrument and as they past by, sounded like Satan doing something naughty). And still, the rev-limited (to 16,750rpm with an air restrictor also) V10 had music to it that the V8s tried to compensate with a shriek. It wasn't a replacement.

 

The V8s at the 2009 British GP was a real disappointment - when they sounded like they were about to get going and "come on the pipe" they shifted up. They sounded strangled at 18,000rpm - at the year prior they still sounded proper at 19,000rpm. That last 1000rpm made all the difference.

 

Then last summer at the Austrian race I was pleasantly surprised by the V6Ts. They were loud if they past you by on full-chat but were deathly silent at anything else. On full overrun you could barely hear them until you got the wicked sound of the downshifts. Brap Brap Brap. Sounded like a maniacal dog. 

 

At Goodwood last year they had 2x V12 F1 cars (Mclaren Honda & Ferrari) on the hill and they did sound incredible but it's not what I remember as F1 since I am a child of the 90s, I remember the V10s. 

 

So what do I want to hear in the future? I've come to accept that the V10s aren't coming back; nice whilst it lasted. But they should look to improve it - more revs would help the V6s but I think more cylinders would be more appropriate. If they could scale up to a 2.1 Litre V8 Turbo it would make a drastic difference to the sound, even keeping at 12,000rpm or so. 

 

You missed the greatest sounding F1 car of all time by a single year :(

 

2000-2001 Mclarens. I've posted videos of those before. It's been, what, going on 17 years since I heard those shrieking Merc engines in Montreal and I can still recall the echo of that motor off the grandstands. Yes, I've heard the V12s too at historic events, but something about that exhaust arrangement in the Mclaren for those seasons was just absolutely brutally magical.



#3984 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 26 March 2018 - 18:45

Fuel flow limited and fuel limited is not the same

 

I agree, high down force is bad for racing, but the cars are too heavy to be fast without big fat wings.

 

Right, but ALL fuel restrictions suck.    Let them race.



#3985 MatsNorway

MatsNorway
  • Member

  • 2,822 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 26 March 2018 - 18:55

You do not get it. You can race as hard as you want with fuel flow restriction. As long as you set a rule that demands more fuel than they can use in the tank. There is no such limit today tho. So Mercedes start with less fuel for instance.



#3986 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,740 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 27 March 2018 - 11:28

Right, but ALL fuel restrictions suck.    Let them race.

 

All engine restrictions are ultimately fuel restrictions:

 

- Capacity restriction (to 3.0L or 2.4L) directly limits the amount of fuel the engine can take in for a given time period

- Rev restrictions directly are an overlay to capacity restrictions to further limit

- Fuel flow restrictions directly limit

- Airflow restrictions indirectly limit (based on acceptable air:fuel ratios) 

- Turbo boost pressures indirectly limit (based on acceptable air:fuel ratios)

 

The key issue with turbo-charged engines is that even with a capacity and rev limit, you can just up the boost and get massive power figures. Especially with modern design/simulation techniques as well as advanced control strategies. So what you need to do is either:

 

1) Restrict boost - indirectly restricting fuel flow

2) Restrict fuel flow - directly restricting

 

Pick your poison.



#3987 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 23,378 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 27 March 2018 - 11:35

You missed the greatest sounding F1 car of all time by a single year :(

 

2000-2001 Mclarens. I've posted videos of those before. It's been, what, going on 17 years since I heard those shrieking Merc engines in Montreal and I can still recall the echo of that motor off the grandstands. Yes, I've heard the V12s too at historic events, but something about that exhaust arrangement in the Mclaren for those seasons was just absolutely brutally magical.

:up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:

The 2000 - 2001 McLaren's are far and away the best sounding V10s of all time.  The V10 config generally never did much for me, but those McLaren's!!!!!  WOW!!!!



#3988 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 27 March 2018 - 15:30

Capacity restriction - indirectly restricts fuel intake, not directly.

Rev restriction - indirectly restricts fuel intake, not directly.

Airflow restriction - indirectly restricts fuel intake.

Boost restriction - indirectly restricts fuel intake.

 

Only fuel flow restriction directly restricts fuel intake.  That is what directly means.

 

I guess I don't mind a maximum fuel flow restriction if the assumption is that some restriction is required at all.

 

All the restrictions mentioned, engine capacity, revs, airflow, boost pressure, fuel flow max are constant restrictions throughout the race.  The part I really don't like is the max fuel allotment for the race.  That is the one that causes drivers to have to dial back their engine mapping and causes them to lift and coast to make their fuel numbers.  That can affect the racing when some drivers might be involved in a fight and have to back down because of fuel limits or they might be trying to catch a car in front of them and they can't continue to perform at their maximum because they have to dial back their engine mapping.

 

Just allow them all the fuel they need to perform at the maximum for the duration of the race with the maximum restricted by any of the constant restriction methods above.  If some cars can do this with less fuel than others that is a benefit to them because they don't have to start with as much fuel weight.  Just get rid of dialing back the engine mapping and lifting and coasting.


Edited by nonobaddog, 27 March 2018 - 15:31.


#3989 6string

6string
  • Member

  • 294 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 31 March 2018 - 04:11

There is a very interesting moment during Hamilton's pole lap in Melbourne. It's a rare occasion where the drivers choose to over-rev the engine approaching a corner to avoid a downshift mid-corner. I think the engine sounds massively better for this split second! Perhaps the biggest factor for the dull engine sound is a lack of revs?

At 1:10
https://youtu.be/i20YjED5gTc

#3990 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 2,440 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 31 March 2018 - 05:51

Marc Gene a few weeks ago destroyed the Road Atlanta recxord in a F2003-GA. Notice the beautiful beautiful sound, and also how fast the car is. Hard to believe that today's crap we have is faster than those.

 



#3991 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 31 March 2018 - 14:57

There is a very interesting moment during Hamilton's pole lap in Melbourne. It's a rare occasion where the drivers choose to over-rev the engine approaching a corner to avoid a downshift mid-corner. I think the engine sounds massively better for this split second! Perhaps the biggest factor for the dull engine sound is a lack of revs?

At 1:10
https://youtu.be/i20YjED5gTc

 

 

That could indeed be the case.

 

But you probably realize why the teams avoid the higher reves, despite this being possible (at least in theory) ? When an engine needs to survive at least 7 full GP weekends, you wanna be as easy on the engine as possible.

I am no engineer of professing but my gut feeling tells me that if there is a choice to make in burning off a volume of fuel within a given amount of time, an you can either do so with lower revs but more turbo boost or more revs at a lower boost level, my gut feeling suggests that lower revs&higher boost generates less stress on the engine and certain moving/rotating parts in general than with higher revs.

Of course there is the effect of the fuel flow limitation as well. But even if that was no hindrance at all, I won't be surprised if, even if it doesn't matter for the power output, lower revs and higher boost would be preferred over the opposite to `save` the engine.

 

 

 

Now: serious question. Are there any American posters over here who may have recollections about the first year of the DW12 in Indycar? That first year there was a difference in the engines in as much that either the Honda or the Chevy used a single turbocharger while the other used two. I wonder, does anyone out here by chance remember that and recall any differences between the sound of the Chevy and Honda that year that could be credited to the difference in turbo application?

 

Henri



#3992 6string

6string
  • Member

  • 294 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 31 March 2018 - 22:14

Yes, I understand the rev range used is optimal for overall performance. Nevertheless it's a nice little insight into how increased revs affect the sound. I hope they go this route in the next regs.

#3993 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 01 April 2018 - 07:48

Yes, I understand the rev range used is optimal for overall performance. Nevertheless it's a nice little insight into how increased revs affect the sound. I hope they go this route in the next regs.

 

 

In order to do so, then need to raise the number of allowedd engines ofer the season. With the current V6T it is quite a challenge to keep them reliable at the rev range used now. Revving faster for longer periods of time? If we remember that Hamilton eventually went back to save his engine for the upcoming 6 events last race......

 

But then, despite the fact that I hope it will never happen, think about the challenge to go back to fast revving atmos of up to 18000 rpm again and have those engines survive 7 GP weekends.....

No doubt that eventually it could be done but even I wonder what that would take to achieve it and at against what kind of prize.

And if any such engine would be much like the ones that causes some out here their eargasms with respect to weight, size, required cooling capacities ....

I think such an engine could be at least, if not even more expensive than a current V6T.



#3994 nonobaddog

nonobaddog
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 01 April 2018 - 14:55

The idea of limiting the number of engines was a cost cutting measure.  If it doesn't cut costs, it is a failure.  

However the real failure to me is when it affects the racing in a negative way because the drivers turn down the engine mapping and sacrifice performance just so they can keep the engines longer.

Anything that causes drivers to turn down their performance is bad for racing.  Kind of like the fuel allotment per race.



#3995 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 01 April 2018 - 15:05

The idea of limiting the number of engines was a cost cutting measure.  If it doesn't cut costs, it is a failure.  

However the real failure to me is when it affects the racing in a negative way because the drivers turn down the engine mapping and sacrifice performance just so they can keep the engines longer.

Anything that causes drivers to turn down their performance is bad for racing.  Kind of like the fuel allotment per race.

 

I think that we went to the opposite of what we saw in about 2000.

 

Wished that I had tagged the location where I read it, now I can only quote from memory.

But, wherever I read it,  it said that at that time there was so much money thrown within engines and so many engines brought along that in the case of McLaren-Merc, they went through over 200 engines in the entire season. And that there were occasions within McLaren when, if one of the drivers felt that his engine was somewhat less powerful, it was easier to change engines than trying to sort out why the engine was not performing as expected. That was, if time permitted, betwen practice sessions and/or overnights...

That was the other side of the spectrum that simply went too far and too extreme and brought teams without enough backing or factory support to their knees....

 

Somewhere in between these extremes should be the `sweet spot` that we won't get ....


Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 April 2018 - 15:06.


#3996 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 23,378 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 01 April 2018 - 16:13

I'd like to see one race engine per weekend and then as many engines as a team likes for practice (FP1, FP2 & FP3).



#3997 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,703 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 April 2018 - 16:39

Thread has reached almost 4000 posts so will be closed.

 

Discussion of engine sounds can be continued in the new thread here: http://forums.autosp...thread-part-ii/

 

Discussion of future engine formulae, can be had in the 2021 engine formula thread here: http://forums.autosp...ils-aesthetics/