801 replies to this topic

[Jimisgod]

Wehrlein is one of the least impressive "up and comers" around, I rate Rio higher simply because he won more races in a more challenging series in 2015.

 

All I can think of is Klein, who was parachuted into RBR because of his nationality and then achieved relatively little. I think he will be replaced by Ocon, unless the Frenchman gets a better deal.

[Vettelari]

Count me amongst the people questioning how talented Wehrlein is. He had better be praying that Rossi doesn't get the other seat. It would be another Grosjean vs. Maldonado, in my worthless opinion. What Rossi did to Stevens last year with no experience in the car was extremely impressive. I really hope that Rossi does not get lost in the seat shuffle. I think he has abright future in Formula 1 & his nationality will surely help him. After Verstappen he is the rookie I am most excited about. It's a damn shame that he isn't driving for HAAS over GUT or Renault over Palmer in 16.

Edited by Vettelari, 11 February 2016 - 23:48.

[noikeee]

Wehrlein is one of the least impressive "up and comers" around, I rate Rio higher simply because he won more races in a more challenging series in 2015.

 

GP2 is more challenging than DTM? How do you even measure that?

 

I think DTM has got a bigger number of quality drivers in the field, btw. Maybe there's a future F1 champ in GP2 and not in DTM, but DTM has lots and lots of strong drivers in there. And many that not only are good but also have tons of experience.

[Marklar]

I rate Wehrlein much higher than Haryanto. He needed years to be a bit competitive, while Wehrlein was it all the time in all series (regardless what Mercedes did last year). No contest here for me. Compare to Rossi it is difficult to judge, I would give the American the advantage. Wehrlein is not untalented, at least not worse than a few other guys we have on the grid. He is just not even close that much talented like Mercedes (and as I noticed the last couple of days the Media here in Germany) is trying to potraying him.

Either Merc sees something in him, which we dont see, then fair enough. Or they really want to push by all means an own young German driver for marketing porpuses.

[Jimisgod]

I rate Wehrlein much higher than Haryanto. He needed years to be a bit competitive, while Wehrlein was it all the time in all series (regardless what Mercedes did last year). No contest here for me. Compare to Rossi it is difficult to judge, I would give the American the advantage. Wehrlein is not untalented, at least not worse than a few other guys we have on the grid. He is just not even close that much talented like Mercedes (and as I noticed the last couple of days the Media here in Germany) is trying to potraying him.

Either Merc sees something in him, which we dont see, then fair enough. Or they really want to push by all means an own young German driver for marketing porpuses.

 

This is the fallacy that getting up to speed faster in lower categories always translates into F1 success. There are countless drivers who blitzed the lower categories and flopped in F1, and there are many sleepers who translated a long road to F1 into a decent career. Two of them being Grosjean and Maldonado, who were fast if not very clean on debut.

[Pontlieue]

yay Wehrlein

 

how to pronounce Wehrlein?

sometime last year I saw a vid in which certain Ted said it's pronounced "Ve-he-ehhh-aagh-lein" but I dont believe him

The "ehrlein" is pronounced similar to "airline", and w is pronounced in German like the v in English.

[Gilles4Ever]

The "ehrlein" is pronounced similar to "airline", and w is pronounced in German like the v in English.

[Marklar]

I'm not expecting that people are able to pronounce a German name correctly (neither they do with Vettel nor with Hulkenberg), but thats not entirely correct, though its acceptable

Edited by Marklar, 12 February 2016 - 08:45.

[Marklar]

This is the fallacy that getting up to speed faster in lower categories always translates into F1 success. There are countless drivers who blitzed the lower categories and flopped in F1, and there are many sleepers who translated a long road to F1 into a decent career. Two of them being Grosjean and Maldonado, who were fast if not very clean on debut.

So your judgement is based on one season?

[Jimisgod]

So your judgement is based on one season?

 

F1 is a one season deal. Perform or leave. Every other category can have slow burn careers because they aren't the top, do 4 seasons in GP2 or do 1 it's not much difference, if you aren't up to speed on day one in F1 you rarely get a 2nd chance.

[Albaforever]

I just wonder if Wehrlein will get same slagging off as my fellow countryman Paul  Di Resta did?

[noikeee]

Browse the board around and you can already see him being equally slagged off.

[Kev00]

I rate DTM as the strongest grid outside f1. I know everyone won't share that opinion but it is a very tight competative field. When Vitaly Petrov went he was almost always last and struggled to keep up with any of them.

[Jonnycraig37]

GP2 is more challenging than DTM? How do you even measure that?

I think DTM has got a bigger number of quality drivers in the field, btw. Maybe there's a future F1 champ in GP2 and not in DTM, but DTM has lots and lots of strong drivers in there. And many that not only are good but also have tons of experience.

Quantifying racing series' is notoriously pointless, but I would tend to agree that GP2, with a teammate in name only is more challenging than DTM where you have 7 teammates paid to drag you up the road and nudge rivals out of your way..

[Seanspeed]

This is the fallacy that getting up to speed faster in lower categories always translates into F1 success. There are countless drivers who blitzed the lower categories and flopped in F1, and there are many sleepers who translated a long road to F1 into a decent career. Two of them being Grosjean and Maldonado, who were fast if not very clean on debut.

It's a good point, but Grosjean is a terrible example as he was extremely good in the junior categories throughout his time there.

[ensign14]

Wehrlein is one of the least impressive "up and comers" around, I rate Rio higher simply because he won more races in a more challenging series in 2015.

 

Did Haryanto win any of the proper races, or did he win the races where he started on pole by finishing 8th the previous day and hanging on for a few laps?

[Gilles4Ever]

According to Speedweek, Manor have been waiting for Haryanto to pay his money. 

 

As the "Jakarta Post" writes that the first payment should arrive by the donors Haryantos a week ago at Manor. But that has not happened. Thereupon Manor representatives met with Imam Nahrawi, the Indonesian Minister of Youth and Sport to a meeting in Jakarta to discuss the situation.

 

http://www.speedweek...-will-mich.html

[Marklar]

They extended the deadline until february 19. 3 days before the test...

[Seanspeed]

Did Haryanto win any of the proper races, or did he win the races where he started on pole by finishing 8th the previous day and hanging on for a few laps?

Bingo.  

 

It's why I wish GP2 would get rid of the Sprint races.  They do nothing but flatter upper midpack drivers and doubly punishes those who had troubles in the 1st race, even if it wasn't their fault. 

[cbbcisace]

They extended the deadline until february 19. 3 days before the test...

Nope deadline is the 16th.

[Kev00]

Bingo.

It's why I wish GP2 would get rid of the Sprint races. They do nothing but flatter upper midpack drivers and doubly punishes those who had troubles in the 1st race, even if it wasn't their fault.

I like the sprint races. It poses deferent challenges for some of the drivers. It is good to see the fast drivers in mid pack and some other guys leading. I don't think a few sprint race victories is the reason they want Haryanto. Even if he had no wins he would still have money.

[Marklar]

Nope deadline is the 16th.

According to the article above

 

Haryanto stresses towards the Jakarta Post: "Manor wants me to drive for them. So they extended the deadline for one further week". This would be the 19th february, three days before the first test in Barcelona

 

Could be BS though. I've read somewhere else also that it is the 16th.

Edited by Marklar, 12 February 2016 - 19:17.

[cbbcisace]

According to the article above

Haryanto stresses towards the Jakarta Post: "Manor wants me to drive for them. So they extended the deadline for one further week". This would be the 19th february, three days before the first test in Barcelona

Could be BS though. I've read somewhere else also that it is the 16th.

Yeah think the article is a little lost, it was 5 days from Thursday which is Tuesday 16th.

[messy]

Wehrlein is more impressive than Haryanto, no question. The DTM is a seriously competitive field where ex-F1 drivers like Schumi Lite, Petrov, Glock and even Di Resta second time round have come in and pretty much bombed. Where several junior hotshots like Auer, Juncadella and co have struggled, yet he won the championship through impressive consistency and pretty good racecraft. No he didn't get a pole, but given how much the form book turns upside down session by session in the DTM, to win it like that at 20/21 years old is pretty solid and well worth a go at a higher level. And DTM is probably only second to F1 at the moment.

Haryanto won a bunch of reverse grid races, pretty unconvincingly. The best drive I ever remember from him was shadowing Vandoorne all the way in last season's opener. Aside from that, he wasn't much cop. Even Max Chilton won a number of feature races quite convincingly in GP2.

[JeePee]

I'm not expecting that people are able to pronounce a German name correctly (neither they do with Vettel nor with Hulkenberg), but thats not entirely correct, though its acceptable

I love Alonso's "Hunkelber" 

[ensign14]

 I don't think a few sprint race victories is the reason they want Haryanto. Even if he had no wins he would still have money.

 

Would he have a superlicence though?

[Marklar]

Would he have a superlicence though?

Yes, he have the super licence.

[rosscamero]

AutoBild are reporting they are seriously considering splitting the 2nd seat 3 ways at 5 million euros each.

[cbbcisace]

Seems the latest news is that Rio has paid £3m today..

[Disgrace]

It would have been intelligent if Mercedes gave Manor some budgetary leeway so as to put another prospect in the other seat. Red Bull rather ruthlessly pit their talents against each other. di Resta had Sutil who by then was a proven quantity to deal with. Haryanto by contrast would not be a credible enough benchmark if Mercedes are looking for a driver to go up against Hamilton.

[Petroltorque]

Mercedes are not giving Manor money though. They are allowing, to use corporate speak, business to business synergy where they don't have to find all the money to run the PUS or they get access to wind tunnels at Brackley. They still need to find money to pay for the season's running. So I have 2 issues;
1) 2 rookies are not going to deliver the needed performance particularly if the budget needed to develop the car was not there in the off season.
2) Any money brought by the second pay driver is unlikely to offset the deficit of finishing outside the top 10. ie; lost column 2 payments.

Edited by Petroltorque, 13 February 2016 - 17:24.

[Starchild]

Wehrlein is more impressive than Haryanto, no question. The DTM is a seriously competitive field where ex-F1 drivers like Schumi Lite, Petrov, Glock and even Di Resta second time round have come in and pretty much bombed. Where several junior hotshots like Auer, Juncadella and co have struggled, yet he won the championship through impressive consistency and pretty good racecraft

They didn't struggled because they are worse drivers than those who were already in DTM. They struggled because they were driving in single-seaters all their life. It's tottaly different car to drive. Coming from formula car to touring car is difficult, just like those experienced DTM guys would also struggle if they come to F1 or some other formula racing series.

 

 

And DTM is probably only second to F1 at the moment.

I rate DTM as the strongest grid outside f1.

Again, comparing touring cars with formulas is pointless. You can compare F1 with indycar and formula E or DTM with WTCC and V8 for example. But comparing F1 with DTM is just nonsense imo. It's like comparing V8 supercars with Formula 3. I can't see any relevance in that...

 

 

When Vitaly Petrov went he was almost always last and struggled to keep up with any of them.

But that was not because they are overall better drivers than him. They are better in touring cars, which is of course no wonder when this was his first time in that type of cars after spending his last 20 years in karting and single seaters. If you put all that DTM field in a single seater series for a season then Petrov would be a front runnner, while that experienced DTM guys would be the ones that would struggle.

Edited by Starchild, 13 February 2016 - 10:25.

[Pontlieue]

DTM is a bit weird. Good F1 drivers have struggled in DTM, and good DTM drivers have struggled in F1. I think DTM drivers are often DTM specialists. Those cars are rather unusual too. They aren't really touring cars, they're more like prototypes with touring car silhouettes.

 

Now, in Wehrlein's case, it hasn't been long since he has driven in Formula 3, that will probably help him in his return to single seaters. But we won't be able to properly judge him until he has driven against other F1 drivers, because DTM is simply no good indicator for F1 performance.

[Kev00]

Most of the racers from DTM have come from single seaters. It is rare now to see drivers coming into DTM for GT or other touring car series.

[cbbcisace]

Mercedes are not giving Manor money though. They are allowing, to use corporate speak, business to business synergy where they don't have to find all the money to run the PUS or they get access to wind tunnels at Brackley. They still need to find money to pay for the season's running. Si I have 2 issues;
1) 2 rookies are not going to deliver the needed performance particularly if the budget needed to develop the car was .
2) Any money brought by the second pay driver is unlikely to offset the deficit of finishing outside the top 10. ie; lost column 2 payments.

Yes they are 5/6m as quoted by auto sport

[Gilles4Ever]

I remember a 5 million discount on the cost of the engines and/or other services but nothing about an actual case of money changing hands.

[Marklar]

Isnt that the same though?

[cbbcisace]

Mercedes reserve Wehrlein has joined Manor on a one-year contract, believed to be worth around €5-6million to the back-of-the-grid team.

Although Manor is to run with this year's spec of Mercedes engine, Wehrlein's move is completely independent of the power unit supply contract.

Above from autosports article

[Gilles4Ever]

Mercedes are not giving Manor money though.

Yes they are 5/6m as quoted by auto sport

As I understand it's 5/6m in services not actual money being given to Manor, two very different things.

[Marklar]

The services like the wind tunnel use are extra.

 

I'm not sure if they gave them 5 m or if they simply discounted the engines by 5m. Either way it doesnt really matter. The later would make much more sense.

 

It is also suggested that one more advantage Manor gained is that Mercedes wont let their own driver down. Which means that they could take preferential treatment when it comes to upgrades.

 

Overall the whole package is much more worth than just 5 m, even if Merc just payed 5 m or nothing.

Edited by Marklar, 13 February 2016 - 13:55.

[AustinF1]

Wolff admits Manor could be Mercedes B team

http://www.inautonew...b-mercedes-team

Edited by AustinF1, 13 February 2016 - 14:44.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Wolff admits Manor could be Mercedes B team
http://www.inautonew...b-mercedes-team

I suspected that a while ago when Bell arrived but was slightly confused when he left just as quickly as he arrived... I also this had some thing to do with Mercedes clarifying the wind tunnel use between Ferrari and Haas...

[Volcano70]

Most of the racers from DTM have come from single seaters. It is rare now to see drivers coming into DTM for GT or other touring car series.

Didn't Gotz come from Blancpain? Prialux and Hand when they drove for BMW?

Still only 3 though.

[Kev00]

Didn't Gotz come from Blancpain? Prialux and Hand when they drove for BMW?
Still only 3 though.

Yes also the likes of Farfus and Martin but the majority of drivers have been picked straight out of junior formulas.

[Nathan]

If Wehrlein is just ho-hum, why are Mercedes bothering??

[Jonnycraig37]

If Wehrlein is just ho-hum, why are Mercedes bothering??

Because they want a young German who has come through 'their' system. Who else is there?

Vietoris is not young & Ocon is not German - and they appear to have only signed him to stop anyone else having him.

[Nathan]

Have Mercedes said that, or do we just assume that is the case?  When one has to ask 'what other German is there', I think that shows how important bringing up a German specific driver really is to them.  Is Nico considered more of a McLaren brought up driver?

[KWSN - DSM]

Have Mercedes said that, or do we just assume that is the case?  When one has to ask 'what other German is there', I think that shows how important bringing up a German specific driver really is to them.  Is Nico considered more of a McLaren brought up driver?

 

McLaren???

 

[GhostR]

Have Mercedes said that, or do we just assume that is the case? When one has to ask 'what other German is there', I think that shows how important bringing up a German specific driver really is to them. Is Nico considered more of a McLaren brought up driver?

Williams.

[Marklar]

Rosberg was in karting a Mercedes/McLaren junior for a short time (he was driving alongside Hamilton in their junior team). For some years his father managed then his business, which brought him the test driver contract at Williams.