148 replies to this topic

[Lemnpiper]

Here at Richmond they are taking the backstretch grandstands out  reducing  the grandstand totals to about 60,000  . From a peak of 105,000  circa 2000.

 

   At this point   Indy cars could be looked upon as a more viable addition  at some tracks since  with the loss of so many seats   the tracks cant be  doin as well and even lower  attended series could be closer  to adding profits for the tracks and look better on tv in the smaller venues

 

 BTW  The Indy cars were around 48-53,000   in the years  when they last ran at  Richmond.

 

 

 As far  as folks  not critiquing things like  the caution clock for fear of being seen as damaging the brand   ,trust me when the tracks cant fill even the reduced numbers of seats because of FAN APATHY  ,said caution clock  will join Digger   in the  Nascar  idea graveyard.

Edited by Lemnpiper, 21 January 2016 - 12:22.

[BuddyHolly]

Blue flags.

 

oh yes thats a bad one.  I remember the days when backmarkers didn't leap out of the way of the leaders as they were lapped.  That was and still is a bad rule

[JHSingo]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet - but the weekend clash between Le Mans and the Azerbaijan Grand Prix is ridiculously stupid. But at least for once, an F1 race won't be the weekend's biggest race.

 

http://www.motorspor...s-start-669157/

[chunder27]

If any F1 fan worth his salt has a shred of decency they will boycott watching this race.

 

One of the single most insipid, nasty, ruthless things that little cretin has done in years

[Seanspeed]

If any F1 fan worth his salt has a shred of decency they will boycott watching this race.

 

One of the single most insipid, nasty, ruthless things that little cretin has done in years

Hahahaha.  I'll be watching every practice session, quali and the race, as always.  F1 is my love and I think endurance racing is the most boring **** ever.  

 

I mean, jesus, the F1 race is only gonna interfere with like 7% of the 24hr race, ya know?  You really think this is some evil plot?  lol

 

My god, people find the dumbest things to get upset about sometimes. 

[B Squared]

I'll be watching the Grand Prix also; Le Mans can be on the television in the kitchen at the same time and you don't miss much. I'm confident that much of the controversy is about drivers not being able to do both, which is understandable.

[Risil]

I think it's remarkable that they managed to schedule the Baku start for the exact moment the shutters will be clicking at the Le Mans winner as it crosses the line. The finish of Le Mans is a pretty big deal: most tune out after the first couple of hours and come back for the last one. But F1 has managed to schedule the Baku qualifying and race at the exact times Le Mans gets most publicity. They even have to start the race at 6pm Baku time to pull that off! It's not a night race, and it's still an hour later than the usual 1pm UK / 2pm Western Europe start time.

 

Jean Todt said that he "expected" F1 to be able to avoid the start and finish at Le Mans; well, it's a good thing he didn't make any promises because he's totally ****ing powerless anyway. What a slap in the face.

Edited by Risil, 21 January 2016 - 20:40.

[Seanspeed]

I think it's remarkable that they managed to schedule the Baku start for the exact moment the shutters will be clicking at the Le Mans winner as it crosses the line. The finish of Le Mans is a pretty big deal: most tune out after the first couple of hours and come back for the last one. But F1 has managed to schedule the Baku qualifying and race at the exact times Le Mans gets most publicity. They even have to start the race at 6pm Baku time to pull that off! It's not a night race, and it's still an hour later than the usual 1pm UK / 2pm Western Europe start time.

 

Jean Todt said that he "expected" F1 to be able to avoid the start and finish at Le Mans; well, it's a good thing he didn't make any promises because he's totally ****ing powerless anyway. What a slap in the face.

The result of the Le Mans race will be known *well* ahead of the actual finish, though.  Usually hours ahead.  So I doubt it will ruin any climactic finish or anything, ya know?  

[muramasa]

there should be the UN charter to prohibit any major international motorsport event from taking place at the same weekend as Le Mans 24hrs.

[Risil]

The result of the Le Mans race will be known *well* ahead of the actual finish, though.  Usually hours ahead.  So I doubt it will ruin any climactic finish or anything, ya know?  

 

That's likely, but the fact remains that many people do tune in for the finish. IMHO the spectacle of the last laps at Le Mans is equal to anything in racing. I don't know the ins and outs about how the media covers races but I bet F1's aggressive scheduling will dampen Le Mans's "footprint" on the global news media too.

 

I expect that like B Squared I'll be able to find a way of following both races satisfactorily. But F1 went out of its way to do this deliberately and you have to ask why.

Edited by Risil, 21 January 2016 - 20:51.

[JHSingo]

Hahahaha.  I'll be watching every practice session, quali and the race, as always.  F1 is my love and I think endurance racing is the most boring **** ever.  

 

I mean, jesus, the F1 race is only gonna interfere with like 7% of the 24hr race, ya know?  You really think this is some evil plot?  lol

 

My god, people find the dumbest things to get upset about sometimes. 

 

My issues with it is that it goes against that agreement there had been for a few years - that there wouldn't be a Grand Prix scheduled on the same weekend of Le Mans.

It was nice that an event that goes some way to getting the same interest as the average F1 race was given a free weekend, with no other distractions going on. Heck, maybe if F1 didn't have so many pointless races (like Azerbaijan), there would be enough weekends that stupid clashes like this could be avoided totally. That's a radical thought, I know...

There's also the other aspect that slightly irritates me. After all the press attention Hulkenberg received for winning at Le Mans last year, it seemed like some...intervention (I word that carefully) from the powers that be in F1 to stop that from happening again. I also found it frankly laughable for the organisers of the Azerbaijan race to claim they "didn't know" about the clash. There is a thing called Google, and besides, it is fairly well known that Le Mans takes places sometime in June.

 

Of course, it's irrelevant now since Audi and Porsche are downsizing to two cars; but as a motorsport fan rather than just an F1 supporter, I found that very cool. To see a current F1 driver do that was something I wished we saw more often, top drivers trying other categories. Hulkenberg's success had sparked that conversation off again.

As for what I'll be watching that weekend? No contest. One of the biggest races in the world and greatest spectacles in motorsport, or qualifying for a faux "European" Grand Prix that'll probably end up being another Mercedes procession?

Yeah, this is dangerously close to becoming a Le Mans vs F1 thread, but I'll take that risk.

[Seanspeed]

there should be the UN charter to prohibit any major international motorsport event from taking place at the same weekend as Le Mans 24hrs.

And make the entire world dread an insufferable race that nobody actually pays attention to but for bits at a time?  That is largely a test of machine reliability rather than great, exciting driving?  That sees innumerable caution periods where the cars aren't actually racing at all?  Where the result is usually known hours before it ends?  Where a car pulling into the pits and sitting there for minutes is considered 'exciting'?  

 

Frankly, I think the FIA should do 3 F1 races in a row with 3 practice sessions, quali and a race for each, all within the time of Le Mans.  Just so I dont give up on my hobby and think that car racing is all about endless monotony.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Seanspeed, 21 January 2016 - 20:55.

[BRG]

I think Le Mans this year might prove the bigger draw than yet another F1 race in a country most people have never heard of.  Could be the tipping point for F1....

[Seanspeed]

I think Le Mans this year might prove the bigger draw than yet another F1 race in a country most people have never heard of.  Could be the tipping point for F1....

Not a chance. 

 

And F1 going somewhere new is actually a positive, not a negative in terms of interest.  Whether that's sustainable is questionable, but for the first year, it generally creates some extra excitement.  

[THEWALL]

Team Orders

Mandatory use of compounds

Parc Ferme

DRS

Penalties for uses of engines, gearboxes

Refuelling

Paved escape zones

Pit Boys

Front Wings

Rear Wings

Current engines

Unnecessary chicanes

Push to pass

Fan boost

Formula electric

Formula Robotic

[byrkus]

And make the entire world dread an insufferable race that nobody actually pays attention to but for bits at a time?  That is largely a test of machine reliability rather than great, exciting driving?  That sees innumerable caution periods where the cars aren't actually racing at all?  Where the result is usually known hours before it ends?  Where a car pulling into the pits and sitting there for minutes is considered 'exciting'?  

 

 

Or you can put it this way. A 24-hour flat-out driving race with double or triple stints per tyre change (where the best cars can achieve distances of 17 or 18 F1 races!), or 100 minutes of open-wheel racing with lots of coasting and predictable results. It is such a paradox nowadays, that even Doctor Who couldn't find a way of fixing it.

[BRG]

Not a chance. 

 

And F1 going somewhere new is actually a positive, not a negative in terms of interest.  Whether that's sustainable is questionable, but for the first year, it generally creates some extra excitement.  

The viewing figures will tell us the answer.  Assuming Baku even happens and at $20 a barrel, all bets are off.

[JHSingo]

Not a chance. 

 

And F1 going somewhere new is actually a positive, not a negative in terms of interest.  Whether that's sustainable is questionable, but for the first year, it generally creates some extra excitement.  

 

I can guarantee which race will get the bigger attendance:

 

 

 

"Our maximum seated capacity is just under 20,000. We're also going to have some general admission tickets, so in total it will be about 28,000. That's very, very small. We're guided by the limitations in the city.

http://www.motorspor...1-race-pay-off/

 

28,000 spectators, presuming it's a sell out, compared to the several hundred thousand Le Mans will get.

 

I think Le Mans this year might prove the bigger draw than yet another F1 race in a country most people have never heard of.  Could be the tipping point for F1....

 

I agree with you. You'd think the prestige and history of a race like Le Mans will interest more people than some bland Tilke street track in a country that has absolutely no motorsport history at all. Unfortunately, as is the way with things, the mainstream media probably won't reflect that.

Edited by JHSingo, 21 January 2016 - 21:33.

[Fastcake]

The viewing figures will tell us the answer.  Assuming Baku even happens and at $20 a barrel, all bets are off.

 

Come one, you know Le Mans is going to get a fraction of the audience of any F1 race. It has very little impact outside of the motorsport world.

[P123]

I think Le Mans this year might prove the bigger draw than yet another F1 race in a country most people have never heard of.  Could be the tipping point for F1....

Doubtful. Le Mans is a famous race, but I don't think even in France it gets particularly spectacular viewing figures. Besides, I'm sure F1 could survive one of it's many races being upstaged (which it probably won't, unless there is some potential classic finish to the Le Mans race). And I'm sure most will find it easy to follow both if they wish. I know I'll be paying more attention to Le Mans, unless it's a cruise to the finish.

Edited by P123, 21 January 2016 - 21:37.

[Seanspeed]

The viewing figures will tell us the answer.  

Le Mans 24 Hours always gets reasonable viewing figures.  It's a novelty race that people feel they *should* at least check out for a brief little bit at some point.  I do the same, though I dont even actually give a damn about it in the end. 

 

But what does the 6 Hours of Bahrain get?  The 6 Hours of Shanghai?  Gotta see things in the bigger picture.  The Indy500 may get some attendance but nobody gives a flying **** about the rest of the calendar.  

 

F1, on the other hand, gets attention all year round.  It's simply a bigger series that more people care about.  Le Mans is a blip and I doubt many people really care too much what happens either way. 

[Nonesuch]

There isn't actually a disagreement over whether F1 or Le Mans gets higher global viewing numbers is there?

 

Here's the FIA on the situation in the land of Le Mans itself: 'On the France 2 and France 3 channels, the Le Mans 24 Hours attracted an average of 1 million viewers, 9 % of the audience with a peak of 1.1 million viewers (12%) at the start of the race.' ( http://www.fiawec.co...ccess_2172.html )

 

Unless the Chinese have suddenly become zealous about watching Le Mans, I think it's safe to say it's not even a contest.

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet - but the weekend clash between Le Mans and the Azerbaijan Grand Prix is ridiculously stupid.

 

What would you have them do? Race at the normal times? That would mean the race is even earlier, rather than after the Le Mans race.

 

As Motorsport.com reports it there is no actual clash as F1 doesn't start the race at :00 but rather the warm-up lap.

 

That the two races are in the same weekend might be unfortunate, but the teams were adamant about keeping their summer break, and there are only so many weekends a year.

 

These things considered, it actually seems like quite a decent solution.

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 January 2016 - 21:53.

[JHSingo]

What would you have them do? Race at the normal times? That would mean the race is even earlier, rather than after the Le Mans race.

 

As Motorsport.com reports it there is no actual clash as F1 doesn't start the race at :00 but rather the warm-up lap.

 

That the two races are in the same weekend might be unfortunate, but the teams were adamant about keeping their summer break, and there are only so many weekends a year.

 

Had less races on the F1 calendar, so that they could still have a summer break and have enough free weekends that they didn't have a race on the same weekend as Le Mans. Like how they managed to avoid a clash last year. And the year before. And the year before that...

 

Problem solved.

[Marklar]

Its not the first time that a F1 weekend is clashing with Le Mans by the way.

[DampMongoose]

Hahahaha. I'll be watching every practice session, quali and the race, as always. F1 is my love and I think endurance racing is the most boring **** ever.

I mean, jesus, the F1 race is only gonna interfere with like 7% of the 24hr race, ya know? You really think this is some evil plot? lol

My god, people find the dumbest things to get upset about sometimes.

That's fine, any drivers that want to participate can miss that little percentage... Sorry Nico you caused us some issues last year!

[Seanspeed]

That's fine, any drivers that want to participate can miss that little percentage... Sorry Nico you caused us some issues last year!

And nothing of value was lost. 

 

I'd honestly be more excited about F1 drivers tackling *real* drivers events.  Le Mans is basically all about the machinery, whether it holds up and all.  Plus the car is shared between three different people.  Actual individual contribution is important but a much smaller percentage compared to most other categories.  

[muramasa]

Its not the first time that a F1 weekend is clashing with Le Mans by the way.

and there used to be world wars and slavery.

also this is not the first time I banged my toe hard on the corner but it is wrong!

[Marklar]

and there used to be world wars and slavery.also this is not the first time I banged my toe hard on the corner but it is wrong!

Just mentioned that as it seems like people forgot that we already saw in the past which race will get more attention when they are on the same time (thats what I was replying to). Really no contest.

And while I suspect that it is indeed in the interest of the FIA in its mission to protect F1 that they are clashing with Le Mans, unfortunately due to this completely ridicoulos calendar of 21 races we didnt really had many alternatives.

Edit: before we are hijacking this thread completely...

Edited by Marklar, 21 January 2016 - 23:34.

[Sheepmachine]

One of the rules that I always thought was dumb was aggregate races. A race would get red flagged halfway through or so and the first half result would be added to the 2nd half meaning most often someone you thought was leading on track would actually on time 10 or so seconds down the road in like 5th or something. It always lead to confusion even for the driver. I'm glad they've stopped using it.

[Marklar]

As you mentioned aggregate races: the countback rule when a race is red flagged is one more stupid rule nowadays.

[Sheepmachine]

As you mentioned aggregate races: the countback rule when a race is red flagged is one more stupid rule nowadays.

Of course, another possibility for confusion. I'd forgotten about that.

[Kalmake]

Rules that lead to Le Mans and other timed races often finishing at crawling pace.

[Clatter]

One of the rules that I always thought was dumb was aggregate races. A race would get red flagged halfway through or so and the first half result would be added to the 2nd half meaning most often someone you thought was leading on track would actually on time 10 or so seconds down the road in like 5th or something. It always lead to confusion even for the driver. I'm glad they've stopped using it.

I quite liked it. It meant that drivers maintained their advantage rather than lose out for an incident not of their making.

[DampMongoose]

And nothing of value was lost.

I'd honestly be more excited about F1 drivers tackling *real* drivers events. Le Mans is basically all about the machinery, whether it holds up and all. Plus the car is shared between three different people. Actual individual contribution is important but a much smaller percentage compared to most other categories.

Curious as to what events you consider real drivers events?

[chunder27]

A real drivers event is something like Pikes Peak, or Ouninpohja in Rally Finland in a Stratos.

 

Nurburgring at night in the 24h in a Viper or something trying to lap Astras and Clios.

 

Safari rally in a Rally 037

 

Spa 24 hours on a Superbike at night with half lit circuit.

 

Mile oval on a TZ700 flat tracker.

 

Riding an NSR500 from about 1990 in the wet at somewhere like Spa (which they did)

 

Not sitting in an air conditioned P1 car at LE Mans sorry

[sopa]

 

Spa 24 hours on a Superbike at night with half lit circuit.

 

 

 

You forgot to add that on a wet circuit. 

[Risil]

One of the rules that I always thought was dumb was aggregate races. A race would get red flagged halfway through or so and the first half result would be added to the 2nd half meaning most often someone you thought was leading on track would actually on time 10 or so seconds down the road in like 5th or something. It always lead to confusion even for the driver. I'm glad they've stopped using it.

 

There was a great countback race in WSBK the last year they used the rule, I think it was at Valencia. Noriyuki Haga running qualifying-style laps at the end trying to stay "ahead" of Checa and Biaggi, who were in shot but further up the road. Final margin of victory was two-hundredths of a second.

 

Japanese GP in 1994 wasn't bad either.

[myattitude]

Testing Limit

Double Points

Pirelli

[Richard T]

Well, this has to be one of the dumbest ideas in motorsport in recent times.

 

 

Gianlu D'Alessandro ‏@Gianludale27  8h

8 hours ago

New layout for Monza. Probably there will be a new chicane (yellow line) with an elevation change of 2,5m #Gazzetta

 

Gianlu D'Alessandro ‏@Gianludale27  8m

8 minutes ago

Whiting would have already approved the new chicane (also for LMP1 cars). Ecclestone, instead, wouldn't like the layout change | #Monza

[Marklar]

Well, this has to be one of the dumbest ideas in motorsport in recent times.

I'm lost for words....

[muramasa]

there was an idea to butcher Spa some years ago as well.

 

that corner of Monza actually creates some exciting duel so no reason to change.

Or they can make that part dual section, one for f1 the other for the rest. even then, the atmosphere of that part of the track would be destroyed.

[Dolph]

The result of the Le Mans race will be known *well* ahead of the actual finish, though.  Usually hours ahead.  So I doubt it will ruin any climactic finish or anything, ya know?  

 

Maybe for you. As a big fan of both Le Mans and F1 I'm disgusted. Its like running the Monaco GP and Indy 500 at the same time. Screw you, Bernie!!

[DampMongoose]

A real drivers event is something like Pikes Peak, or Ouninpohja in Rally Finland in a Stratos.

Nurburgring at night in the 24h in a Viper or something trying to lap Astras and Clios.

Safari rally in a Rally 037

Spa 24 hours on a Superbike at night with half lit circuit.

Mile oval on a TZ700 flat tracker.

Riding an NSR500 from about 1990 in the wet at somewhere like Spa (which they did)

Not sitting in an air conditioned P1 car at LE Mans sorry

That's great, but I asked Seanspeed. Being based on machinery, shared driving etc, I take it from his previous post he would disagree with several of your choices. I wouldn't. But its unlikely an F1 driver is able to time travel to most of those mentioned but Le Mans as an event with prestige and history should be quite possible. Encouraging drivers to participate in other high profole series I would have thought a welcome return.

[Kristian]

Its not the first time that a F1 weekend is clashing with Le Mans by the way.

 

Indeed. I used to remember it clashing with Canada most years, and i don't remember the hyperbolic complaints back then. 

 

For what its worth, I think Baku is a slightly insane circuit and we might have a weird race there. 

[Dolph]

Indeed. I used to remember it clashing with Canada most years, and i don't remember the hyperbolic complaints back then. 

 

There's a pretty big difference. I wouldn't have such a problem if the race was in Canada.

[JHSingo]

Indeed. I used to remember it clashing with Canada most years, and i don't remember the hyperbolic complaints back then.

 

The time difference meant there was never much cross over. The race was well underway by the time qualifying in Canada started, and had finished several hours before the start of the Canadian Grand Prix.

But to schedule an event where qualifying starts just as Le Mans starts, and the actual race starts just as Le Mans finishes, is enormously stupid, particularly when the FIA said before that there would be no Grand Prix scheduled on Le Mans weekend.

[Dolph]

The time difference meant there was never much cross over. The race was well underway by the time qualifying in Canada started, and had finished several hours before the start of the Canadian Grand Prix.

But to schedule an event where qualifying starts just as Le Mans starts, and the actual race starts just as Le Mans finishes, is enormously stupid, particularly when the FIA said before that there would be no Grand Prix scheduled on Le Mans weekend.

 

I don't think its stupid. I believe its intentionally organised by Bernie et al.

[uffen]

Interesting how so many of these "dumb" ideas are quite recent.

[chipmcdonald]

Fanboost. I would watch Formula E if it wasn't for that.

 

I refuse to acknowledge that series as "racing" with such a ... concept.  

 

OMG I didn't want to see civilization jumping the shark.  The amount of stupid I'm exposed to daily is unreal, I want it to stop without having to become an off-line Luddite.

 

"Fanboost" is a turbo or supercharger.  Yes?  That's what that is.  Or a hovercraft.  Speak not of this "Formula E".