63 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

Or Ayrton Senna.

 

Karting is where the trade is learnt.

Some drivers who've gone to Single seaters from Karts have won races/got poles very early. I think Kubica was one iirc Pole position at first attempt?  Raikkonen didn't drive a lot of cars before F1 and would have been earlier if it wasn't for the license requirements. 

 Even that kid who's promoted as coming from video games, cut his teeth in Karts.  Then there's Ferrari  being questioned for giving Valentino Rossi's a test, then doing a reasonable time, an ex Kart champion! 

 

Then you've got the F1 drivers using Karts as part of their off season training.  'it keeps me sharp for F1" Michael Schumacher.  

 

But karting's record for predicting F1 drivers is even worse than GP2 level. Otherwise Liuzzi, Pantano and Trulli would've all been F1 superstars like they were in karting. And that's only the drivers that actually made it to F1, because pretty much every other karting world champ disappears midway through the ladder (I'm talking only the guys that actually had the money to move to single-seater cars here).

[Marklar]

But karting's record for predicting F1 drivers is even worse than GP2 level. Otherwise Liuzzi, Pantano and Trulli would've all been F1 superstars like they were in karting. And that's only the drivers that actually made it to F1, because pretty much every other karting world champ disappears midway through the ladder (I'm talking only the guys that actually had the money to move to single-seater cars here).

That is not the point. The point is that drivers who had a shorter way from karting to the F1 entry are more successfull than the drivers who are spending ages in feeder series. Assuming that the driving style in karting is really closer to F1, then it is less likely for those drivers that their driving style is getting 'wasted' like Nemo pointed out.

Edited by Marklar, 22 January 2016 - 13:04.

[noikeee]

I struggle a lot to believe in that. Feeder series cars are a lot more similar to F1 than karts. Karts don't have downforce!! You don't lose speed if you drift them!

 

So you see a trend in that drivers that jump quickly into F1 after karting, do better that those that don't. Your explanation is that years spent in feeder series dull their senses, or something. I see a simpler explanation: the younger you try a F1 car, the better you get at driving F1 cars, the more ingrained it is in your brain; it's more to do with that than with their previous experience with karting. Remember Vettel and Rosberg were some of the youngest F1 testers ever, it didn't hurt them at all did it!

 

They weren't all that quick in the beginning though. Vettel was pretty slow his first F1 race in Indianapolis! I believe drivers with GP2/WSR experience tend to do better from the start; but might not improve as dramatically over time as people that jump from low levels. Guys like Button, Raikkonen, Massa improved dramatically over the course of their 2 or 3 first F1 seasons.

 

I'm going off on several different tangents here, but another thing that matters is the specific kind of feeder series car. I vaguely recall at a point a lot of people saying that F3 cars were a lot more similar to F1s than F3000s/GP2s. Right now some people complain GP2 is too much about saving tyres, but with F1 being all about it as well it's probably the best type of preparation... for this kind of F1. If F1 were to change tyres to rock solid ones, some GP2 drivers might start struggling to transition!

Edited by noikeee, 22 January 2016 - 13:12.

[messy]

The thing with F3000 and now GP2 is that the series champion is usually someone in third third or fourth year (at least), because experience counts for so much there. The top teams seek out drivers like Leimer, Valsecchi or Palmer knowing that even if they're not the absolute quickest, they've got all the experience to do the business more than a rookie who'll probably win the odd race in between crashing and being all at sea in the reverse grid type races. Winning the GP2 title takes brains, guile and racecraft beyond probably all but the most exceptional rookies. And those exceptional rookies get plucked out of it long before they're experienced enough to win the title. 

 

There are exceptions to that obviously, like Hamilton, Rosberg and Vandoorne. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

In the past two decades there's been...9 WCs?

 

Vettel, Button, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill, Schumacher.

 

9 in 20 years isn't *too* bad. But there's also been 20 GP2/F3000 champions in that period. Plus the WSR guys. And Villeneuve came out of Indycar. So...just based on maths and the way F1 works(ie in Formula-Whatever you move on after winning a title) of course lots of people *won't* be a WC.

 

I think the bigger issues are whether junior champions are promoting to F1 or not.

[sopa]

 The point is that drivers who had a shorter way from karting to the F1 entry are more successfull than the drivers who are spending ages in feeder series.

 

Successful drivers go faster from karting to F1, because they have the talent to learn new series quicker and proceed quicker. Top talents "waste" only 1 or max 2 seasons on F3 level, then F3000/GP2 level. Lesser talents may hang around 3-4 seasons on one level, provided they have the money.

[lustigson]

I've often stated something similar as the original poster did regarding the winners of 'our' Masters of Formula Three at Zandvoort. That was often billed as having the Future F1 winners on the grid, but of all winners, only Coulthard (1991) and Hamilton (2005) have ever gone on the win Grands Prix. 12 of the 23 winners haven't even gotten their F1 break.

[KWSN - DSM]

But karting's record for predicting F1 drivers is even worse than GP2 level. Otherwise Liuzzi, Pantano and Trulli would've all been F1 superstars like they were in karting. And that's only the drivers that actually made it to F1, because pretty much every other karting world champ disappears midway through the ladder (I'm talking only the guys that actually had the money to move to single-seater cars here).

 

Senna was a Karting superstar

Prost was a Karting superstar

Schumacher was a Karting superstar

Patrese was a Karting superstar

Trulli was a Karting superstar

Magnussen was a Karting superstar

Hamilton was a Kartin superstar

 

These are just the Champions I remember, Kubica, Rosberg, Button were superstars as well.

 

Like in the Feeder Formulas some make it, some do not but saying Karting mean nothing is patently wrong and I will question any assertion that F1 drivers were not Kart drivers, I would put the percentage at higher than 90.

 

[noikeee]

The thing with F3000 and now GP2 is that the series champion is usually someone in third third or fourth year (at least), because experience counts for so much there. The top teams seek out drivers like Leimer, Valsecchi or Palmer knowing that even if they're not the absolute quickest, they've got all the experience to do the business more than a rookie who'll probably win the odd race in between crashing and being all at sea in the reverse grid type races. Winning the GP2 title takes brains, guile and racecraft beyond probably all but the most exceptional rookies. And those exceptional rookies get plucked out of it long before they're experienced enough to win the title. 

 

There are exceptions to that obviously, like Hamilton, Rosberg and Vandoorne. 

For a while this wasn't true though. 2005 to 2011 sparked an excellent generation of GP2 champions: Hamilton (triple champ), Rosberg (multiple race winner), Maldonado (one-time winner), Grosjean, Hulkenberg and Glock (quality upper midfield drivers), and Pantano (decent driver a little unlucky in F1). Plus Pérez, Kovalainen and Piquet Jr (all podium finishers), and Bianchi (another quality driver, lost to his crash). It's a shame things kind of returned to how they were in the F3000 days, with rising costs making it harder for less cash-loaded drivers to get good drives, and GP2's own popularity making it likelier that drivers hang on for a very long time to their dreams of getting into F1. I think the Pirelli tyres didn't help neither, this makes GP2 more similar to current F1 yes, but also puts a further premium on experience.

 

I wonder if it's even possible to engineer GP2 in a way this doesn't happen for a long period of time. Once it gets on a run of some success, it inevitably drives costs up as drivers realize it's the best place to be to market themselves... and by consequence it lowers the level of the series. I think it's the main reason of why over the decades the 2nd tier hasn't been all that successful in generating F1 champs; the other big reason is that some really special drivers are poached earlier and skip the 2nd tier. I think even the current GP2 post-Pirelli is still better at it than F3000 and F2 though, for all the reasons I posted earlier: a) the talent is more concentrated in these international series; b) the mentality has changed, as young drivers are now expected to have more experience of this level; and c) the spec cars make it harder to mask talent.

[noikeee]

Senna was a Karting superstar

Prost was a Karting superstar

Schumacher was a Karting superstar

Patrese was a Karting superstar

Trulli was a Karting superstar

Magnussen was a Karting superstar

Hamilton was a Kartin superstar

 

These are just the Champions I remember, Kubica, Rosberg, Button were superstars as well.

 

Like in the Feeder Formulas some make it, some do not but saying Karting mean nothing is patently wrong and I will question any assertion that F1 drivers were not Kart drivers, I would put the percentage at higher than 90.

 

No, I'm not saying karting is meaningless, karting is absolutely necessary as part of your preparation, it's the only thing you can do throughout your childhood and all those years of experience stack up very valuably for all the drivers. And excellent drivers tend to do well at every level! What I don't agree with is that karting results correlate better with F1 results, than feeder series results. It seems to me it can only be the other way around - lower formula cars are much more like F1s; and simply a long time ago has gone by since a driver has gone from karting to F1! (in most cases). And skill evolution isn't linear over time...

 

Also I'm pretty sure you can find a lot more drivers that beat F1 champs in karting, than they did in GP2 or F3 or whatever. A lot of them are because they ran out of money, but not all. Many couldn't adapt as well to cars as the F1 champs did...

[GSiebert]

If you look at the guys who had a fair shot at the title in the last decade or so did just before F1 :

 

Hamilton : Won GP2 in his rookie season

Rosberg : Won GP2 in his rookie season (well it was GP2's first seaon)

Vettel : Didn't win FR3.5 but impressed in his rookie season

Alonso : Didn't win F3000 but impressed in his rookie season

Webber : Didn't win F3000 (even in his second season) but still impressive and signed by Briatore during his first season.

Raikkonen : Won UK FR in his rookie season, and impressed in Euro FR.

Button : Won FF in his rookie season, then impressed in rookie season of F3 the next year.

Massa : Won Italian F3000 in rookie season.

Schumacher : Impressed in WSC rookie season.

Montoya : Won F3000 in his rookie season then won CART in his rookie season.

Kubica : Won FR3.5 in his rookie season

 

It appears that what's really important to succeed in F1, is great results in your rookie seaon. Feeder series are full of drivers who have been there for several years, and experience really matters in feeder series. Beating them in your first year is what make a driver special.

Edited by GSiebert, 22 January 2016 - 16:51.

[KWSN - DSM]

 

No, I'm not saying karting is meaningless, karting is absolutely necessary as part of your preparation, it's the only thing you can do throughout your childhood and all those years of experience stack up very valuably for all the drivers. And excellent drivers tend to do well at every level! What I don't agree with is that karting results correlate better with F1 results, than feeder series results. It seems to me it can only be the other way around - lower formula cars are much more like F1s; and simply a long time ago has gone by since a driver has gone from karting to F1! (in most cases). And skill evolution isn't linear over time...

 

Also I'm pretty sure you can find a lot more drivers that beat F1 champs in karting, than they did in GP2 or F3 or whatever. A lot of them are because they ran out of money, but not all. Many couldn't adapt as well to cars as the F1 champs did...

 

 

Ahhh.... Well then I agree, as my brother posted several years ago the Danish Kart driver Gert Munkholm was THE lost Danish talent, but he never moved out of Karting, and yes there are loads of those drivers.

 

[BRG]

Hard done? Palmer is NOT hyped.

No, he isn't, which was my point. Which you don't seem to have understood.

[Lee Nicolle]

To be blunt it is and always will be money and a lesser extent name. Then getting a ride in a good car.

The much vaunted Hamilton has had the best cars mostly, sure he is good, just not as great as made out. And as has been proven anyway.

There has been 2 standouts in recent decades, Senna and Shumacher. Neither who were ever sportsmen, many were afraid to contest a corner or they would be punted. Both excellent drivers ofcourse and generally the best equipment. Mansell deserves a mention as the way he came up, then won, then won in Indy cars. A whinging git but again a top driver and more 'sporting' too.

The number of drivers who have not progressed is startling, all down too money to buy a ride. Some of the others who have got there did it with money and a modicum of raw talent