153 replies to this topic

[MikeV1987]

Well, I didn't see that one coming 

 

http://www.wheelsmag...t-of-his-depth/

 

 

“But those three [Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso] are on a very, very, high level. And if I had to pick one, I’d probably pick Sebastian, in terms of pulling the whole juggernaut together and getting the whole team going, which I think he will do at Ferrari shortly.

“He’s notoriously consistent and unfortunately I was on the receiving end of a lot of that, but he’s pretty handy. Lewis has a little bit more of that mind-management challenge, whereas Sebastian is true to form in the Germanic fashion of that delivery.”

 

 

 

Quizzed about who was the worst driver he’d ever shared a track with, Webber didn’t hesitate.

“Probably Maldonado,” he said. “He’s out of his depth and just shouldn’t be there. He’s making up the numbers basically.”

Edited by MikeV1987, 26 January 2016 - 09:54.

[Marklar]

Now thats what I call a perfect thread for my end of the work beer

Edited by Marklar, 24 January 2016 - 19:27.

[Disgrace]

Sportsman A beats Sportsman B, Sportsman B declares Sportsman A to be the best sportsman in Sport X following the departure of Sportsman B.

[Exb]

Stop the press - driver names team-mate (former) as best driver.

 

Reminds me of the article from a few days ago where Perez said Hulkenberg was one of the top 3 on the F1 grid.  

[Kev00]

Sportsman A beats Sportsman B, Sportsman B declares Sportsman A to be the best sportsman in Sport X following the departure of Sportsman B.

Fair comment but I still agree with Webber.

[Clatter]

He's right about Maldonado though.

[1Devil1]

Stop the press - driver names team-mate (former) as best driver.

 

Reminds me of the article from a few days ago where Perez said Hulkenberg was one of the top 3 on the F1 grid.

 

Alonso and Hamilton comes to mind, that lovelfest was hilarious. Was there ever a driver who talked really bad about their former teammates? Didn't even Senna hyped his respective team mates back in the days (Andretti and Berger) 

[Clatter]

Alonso and Hamilton comes to mind, that lovelfest was hilarious. Was there ever a driver who talked really bad about their former teammates? Didn't even Senna hyped his respective team mates back in the days (Andretti and Berger) 

I don't think Mansell had many good things to say about Prost.

[1Devil1]

I don't think Mansell had many good things to say about Prost.

 

Yeah, but he wouldn't say Prost, was an average or not so good driver? They didn't like each other.

[Marklar]

What I noticed when former F1 drivers or "pundits" are asked who the best driver is and it always comes down between Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel: for some reasons I always disagree with the suggested strength/weaknesses of each driver.

For me Vettel is not the best driver (if I had to pick one I would pick Alonso, but the top 3 are very close together for me), but its definetely a valid opinion to suggest that Vettel is the best driver. All three drivers (ALO, HAM, VET) are complete drivers which makes it difficult to make a order. The only point I personally see where Vettel is really outshining both, Alonso and Hamilton, is probably that he seems to play the "team game" better. But consistency? Not sure about that.

Edited by Marklar, 24 January 2016 - 19:55.

[Jimisgod]

Sportsman A beats Sportsman B, Sportsman B declares Sportsman A to be the best sportsman in Sport X following the departure of Sportsman B.

 

The older I am, the faster the guy who beat me was.

[Jonnycraig37]

But consistency? Not sure about that.

He's just ended the longest run in F1 history without a self inflicted retirement...

Seems pretty consistent to me.

[Ross Stonefeld]

There have been worse drivers than Maldonado just on Webber's team...

[P123]

What I noticed when former F1 drivers or "pundits" are asked who the best driver is and it always comes down between Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel: for some reasons I always disagree with the suggested strength/weaknesses of each driver.

For me Vettel is not the best driver (if I had to pick one I would pick Alonso, but the top 3 are very close together for me), but its definetely a valid opinion to suggest that Vettel is the best driver. All three drivers (ALO, HAM, VET) are complete drivers which makes it difficult to make a order. The only point I personally see where Vettel is really outshining both, Alonso and Hamilton, is probably that he seems to play the "team game" better. But consistency? Not sure about that.

I think form goes up and down. None of them are definitive number 1 at all times. It's the same in other sports, so no reason to think F1 is any different. F1 fans constantly get bent out of shape over who is the 'best' in F1.

[P123]

He's just ended the longest run in F1 history without a self inflicted retirement...

Seems pretty consistent to me.

One of those meaningless stats- how often has the tarmac run-off saved him (and the rest)...

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

There is no doubt that Sebastian Vettel is consistent but let's not forget Sebastian Vettel had/has support of his team both in RedBull and Ferrari and has enjoyed more or less number1 status in his teams. That is very important for being able to deliver.

 

In my opinion Ferrari are going to deliver not because of Sebastian Vettel but because of technical leadership that James Allison has brought along with other new engineers, upgraded facilities and increased budget.

Edited by RYARLE, 24 January 2016 - 20:48.

[Marklar]

I think form goes up and down. None of them are definitive number 1 at all times. It's the same in other sports, so no reason to think F1 is any different. F1 fans constantly get bent out of shape over who is the 'best' in F1.

Precisely. Thats why Im already fine with the claim that Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel are the best drivers in no particular order currently. The differences are too small. I mean they are so small that the "next tier" (Button, Rosberg, Ricciardo) is right up there.

[Seanspeed]

I dont necessarily agree but I wouldn't necessarily disagree, either. 

[Seanspeed]

There is no doubt that Sebastian Vettel is consistent but let's not forget Sebastian Vettel had/has support of his team both in RedBull and Ferrari and has enjoyed more or less number1 status in his teams. That is very important for being able to deliver.

You act like teams hand out preferential treatment arbitrarily.  

[cheekybru]

LH

 

Qualy - 9.5

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 10 

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Total - 46.5 / 50

 

SV

 

Qualy - 10

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9.5

Racecraft - 8

Mental Strength - 9

 

Total - 46 /50

 

FA 

 

Qualy - 8

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 9

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Overall - 44/50

 

Just my 2 cents, Seems a bit harsh on Fernando now ive added them up, was going to have a stat for how well they build a team, but as I think this is a factor outside the drivers control, I decided not to

[Kev00]

LH

Qualy - 9.5
Race Pace - 9.5
Consistency - 9
Racecraft - 10
Mental Strength - 8.5

Total - 46.5 / 50

SV


Qualy - 10
Race Pace - 9.5
Consistency - 9.5
Racecraft - 8
Mental Strength - 9

Total - 46 /50

FA

Qualy - 8
Race Pace - 9.5
Consistency - 9
Racecraft - 9
Mental Strength - 8.5

Overall - 44/50

Just my 2 cents, Seems a bit harsh on Fernando now ive added them up, was going to have a stat for how well they build a team, but as I think this is a factor outside the drivers control, I decided not to

HAM racecraft 10? Haha! Is that because when he says it is impossible to overtake people believe that to be the case? When he is in front he is pretty much unstoppable but when he has been mid pack even in that merc he has been a bit messy. Alonso's racecraft better than anybody else for me.

[shonguiz]

I think form goes up and down. None of them are definitive number 1 at all times. It's the same in other sports, so no reason to think F1 is any different. F1 fans constantly get bent out of shape over who is the 'best' in F1.

Totally agree.

[Marklar]

HAM racecraft 10? Haha! Is that because when he says it is impossible to overtake people believe that to be the case? When he is in front he is pretty much unstoppable but when he has been mid pack even in that merc he has been a bit messy. Alonso's racecraft better than anybody else for me.

Agree that Alonso has the best race craft. That is pretty much his biggest advantage. But a cynic would say that he stil managed to crash 5 times last season at the start for instance. I'm a bit amused how people are always taking 1-2 messy races in the last 4 years as a reference and ignoring to do the same for all other drivers. Hamilton has certainly a good race craft, thats why Rosberg has a hard time to keep up with him.

[cheekybru]

For clarification in my lists Racecraft = overtaking and defending.

 

All three have been in situations where they couldnt get past someone (FA in Abu Dubai 2010 anyone?) I think we should accept that if drivers like this cant overtake, it is obviously too risky at the time, and we should accept their judgment in that (Look at the many many great overtakes LH and FA have in the past)

 

In my opinion in a situation where a pass needed to be made, I would want Lewis driving my car more than anyone else on the grid (his defending and retaking or places if he is passed is second to none also)

 

If I were to rate them on "Strategy", Lewis would loose a couple points to the other 2 

Edited by cheekybru, 24 January 2016 - 22:41.

[Kev00]

Agree that Alonso has the best race craft. That is pretty much his biggest advantage. But a cynic would say that he stil managed to crash 5 times last season at the start for instance. I'm a bit amused how people are always taking 1-2 messy races in the last 4 years as a reference and ignoring to do the same for all other drivers. Hamilton has certainly a good race craft, thats why Rosberg has a hard time to keep up with him.

I'm not ignoring other drivers. Hamilton's race craft is one of the best but not flawless 10/10. As for Alonso I think he knows he has to make ridiculous starts to have a good race and obviously took a lot of gambles.

[chunder27]

Mansell didn't have much good to say about anyone other than Senna.

 

It's why he is so unpopular nowadays!

[RPM40]

 

LH

 

Qualy - 9.5

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 10 

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Total - 46.5 / 50

 

SV

 

Qualy - 10

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9.5

Racecraft - 8

Mental Strength - 9

 

Total - 46 /50

 

FA 

 

Qualy - 8

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 9

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Overall - 44/50

 

Just my 2 cents, Seems a bit harsh on Fernando now ive added them up, was going to have a stat for how well they build a team, but as I think this is a factor outside the drivers control, I decided not to

 

 

Lets just pull these arbitrary numbers out of my ass and state them like they have some kind of fact. 

 

For all we know you put those three in the same machinery and there would be one clear winner who was consistently faster. 

[RPM40]

There is no doubt that Sebastian Vettel is consistent but let's not forget Sebastian Vettel had/has support of his team both in RedBull and Ferrari and has enjoyed more or less number1 status in his teams. That is very important for being able to deliver.

 

In my opinion Ferrari are going to deliver not because of Sebastian Vettel but because of technical leadership that James Allison has brought along with other new engineers, upgraded facilities and increased budget.

 

Yep, this is quite important long term. That and he's had relatively weaker team mates compared to all other top drivers, of course Webber isn't trying to portray that impression but past his prime Webber and current Raikkonen aren't exactly tough benchmarks.

 

Also, when he got thrashed by Daniel Ricciardo, it was by someone who had just joined the team, the team built around Vettel. Even that wasn't on even footing.

[P123]

Lets just pull these arbitrary numbers out of my ass and state them like they have some kind of fact. 
 
For all we know you put those three in the same machinery and there would be one clear winner who was consistently faster.

I'm not a fan of /10 marks either, but are you sure about your second statement? If you give them all the same car, for Hamilton to emerge a clear winner the other two would have to be like Heikki, for Alonso the other two would have to be like a spent Massa, and for Vettel to be a clear winner the other two would have to be like Webber. Besides, two them have already been in the same machinery and neither was consistently faster than the other.

[RPM40]

I'm not a fan of /10 marks either, but are you sure about your second statement? If you give them all the same car, for Hamilton to emerge a clear winner the other two would have to be like Heikki, for Alonso the other two would have to be like a spent Massa, and for Vettel to be a clear winner the other two would have to be like Webber. Besides, two them have already been in the same machinery and neither was consistently faster than the other.

 

I don't think you need to have them emerge the clear winner by that margin. I would say Hamilton is the clear winner over Rosberg. 

 

I personally think in terms of long term consistency, in the same machinery we'd see Hamilton and Alonso pull ahead, Vettel third. Vettel is a strong driver, especially as the unchallenged team leader, but strong intra-team rivalry and beating other top drivers in identical hardware is not something he's known for. While Hamilton has faced constant strong drivers head to head.

 

I still think Alonso would be the strongest over a season as he's always there. But also, he's probably starting to hit pace decline due to age. 

[Seanspeed]

For clarification in my lists Racecraft = overtaking and defending.

 

All three have been in situations where they couldnt get past someone (FA in Abu Dubai 2010 anyone?) I think we should accept that if drivers like this cant overtake, it is obviously too risky at the time, and we should accept their judgment in that (Look at the many many great overtakes LH and FA have in the past)

 

In my opinion in a situation where a pass needed to be made, I would want Lewis driving my car more than anyone else on the grid (his defending and retaking or places if he is passed is second to none also)

 

If I were to rate them on "Strategy", Lewis would loose a couple points to the other 2 

I'm not gonna sit here and argue all your ratings even if I dont agree, but I will say that most people consider 'racecraft' to be more than just overtaking and defending, but also largely how they manage their race as a whole. 

 

But it goes to show that coming up with pre-defined categories and applying some numbering system to them wont entirely do things justice. 

[RPM40]

I'm not gonna sit here and argue all your ratings even if I dont agree, but I will say that most people consider 'racecraft' to be more than just overtaking and defending, but also largely how they manage their race as a whole. 

 

But it goes to show that coming up with pre-defined categories and applying some numbering system to them wont entirely do things justice. 

 

I consider race management and race craft different, race craft to me is defending and overtaking, racing in a pack. 

[Seanspeed]

I consider race management and race craft different, race craft to me is defending and overtaking, racing in a pack. 

Well fair enough, there's no strict definition for these things.  Just what I think most people consider it going by personal experience. 

 

Though it does mean that you'd ideally need more categories(a whole bunch more) if we're splitting up the skills like this.  I mean, hell, the person didn't even list wet weather skills, of which could be split up into different categories itself, from being able to judge conditions in terms of tire choice, to ability to get heat into tires quickly, or ability to find the right lines, etc etc.  

 

Basically, being a quality driver is lots and LOTS of different elements that all have to come together.

[Vettelari]

Interesting to hear Webber's opinion on this never ending debate. Sadly, there's no unbiased way to determine who is the best and worst on the grid today. I tend to put more weight on the opinions of a former driver than those of a poster or columnist, though.

[Myrvold]

He's just ended the longest run in F1 history without a self inflicted retirement...

Seems pretty consistent to me.

Reliable is the word you are looking for.

[FPV GTHO]

Interesting to hear Webber's opinion on this never ending debate. Sadly, there's no unbiased way to determine who is the best and worst on the grid today. I tend to put more weight on the opinions of a former driver than those of a poster or columnist, though.

Most drivers would rate those they have shared cars with as top notch as it makes them look better. I read an article though some time ago that analysed Hamilton criticising Vettel and Alonso and how that could belittle his own achievements. Webber is lucky in that respect by having Vettel as a former team mate, nobody will really disagree with him.

[Jimisgod]

 

LH

 

Qualy - 9.5

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 10 

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Total - 46.5 / 50

 

SV

 

Qualy - 10

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9.5

Racecraft - 8

Mental Strength - 9

 

Total - 46 /50

 

FA 

 

Qualy - 8

Race Pace - 9.5

Consistency - 9

Racecraft - 9

Mental Strength - 8.5

 

Overall - 44/50

 

Just my 2 cents, Seems a bit harsh on Fernando now ive added them up, was going to have a stat for how well they build a team, but as I think this is a factor outside the drivers control, I decided not to

 

 

LH

 

Dyed hair = -2

Owns dog = 3

Because I is black = 1

Left McLaren in unhappy circumstances = -2

Never visits Croydon = -1

 

FA

 

Hipster beard = -3

Is samurai = 4

Calls a chicane a chicken = 1

Left McLaren in unhappy circumstances = -2

Never visits Croydon = -1

 

SV

 

Under some impression Germans are capable of humour = -4

Under no impression Germans are capable of fashion = 5

Can't count to Multi 21 = -1

Never left McLaren in unhappy circumstances = 1

Never visits Croydon = -1

[maverick69]

I think Fred is a little past his best now. Still a mighty driver by any comparison - but cooling down a bit.

 

IMHO, I think if you gave any team a free pick on two drivers it would be Hamilton and Vettel - every time - without question.

 

I'm particularly impressed by Vettel. He got knocked out by Riccardo, got up, dusted himself off, moved to the most significant racing team on the planet - and appears to be stronger for it.

 

That's no mean feat in the critical, glaring eye of F1............

[Zava]

I'm not a fan of /10 marks either, but are you sure about your second statement? If you give them all the same car, for Hamilton to emerge a clear winner the other two would have to be like Heikki, for Alonso the other two would have to be like a spent Massa, and for Vettel to be a clear winner the other two would have to be like Webber. Besides, two them have already been in the same machinery and neither was consistently faster than the other.

well, that leaves us with one who could make the other two look like Kovy.

[Jejking]

Agree that Alonso has the best race craft. That is pretty much his biggest advantage. But a cynic would say that he stil managed to crash 5 times last season at the start for instance. I'm a bit amused how people are always taking 1-2 messy races in the last 4 years as a reference and ignoring to do the same for all other drivers. Hamilton has certainly a good race craft, thats why Rosberg has a hard time to keep up with him.

 

You know that the risks of damage are far greater in the midfield than in front?
 

[cheekybru]

Lets just pull these arbitrary numbers out of my ass and state them like they have some kind of fact. 

 

For all we know you put those three in the same machinery and there would be one clear winner who was consistently faster. 

 

JUST MY 2 CENTS bloody hell you wonder why people dont post its all opinions fs

[Marklar]

You know that the risks of damage are far greater in the midfield than in front?

Of course.

All of these three proved that they can lead and dominate a race (though Alonso had the bad luck that he didnt had this luxury very often) and all of them had many races were they needed to race through the pack and all of them did that sometimes great and sometimes not so great. I have just the impression that the perception of some drivers are lead by some kind of "pre-perception": if in the past Vettel or Hamilton had a crash people were fast to say that this is some kind of weakness of them to race through the pack, even if it happens pretty rarely, while you never hear that if Alonso has his odd collision/crash. Of course the same goes reversed to Alonsos expense in other departments.

Edited by Marklar, 25 January 2016 - 10:15.

[Seanspeed]

I think Fred is a little past his best now. Still a mighty driver by any comparison - but cooling down a bit.

I dont really see any evidence of that yet.  He was still mighty at Ferrari and never looked to be cooling down any there.  

 

One season at Mclaren, with a car that rarely ever worked properly and couldn't overtake/defend anything worth a damn - I dont think the best situation to judge a driver.  

 

I'd be really surprised if he didn't look like a world beater again given a competitive and reliable car. 

[RPM40]

I dont really see any evidence of that yet.  He was still mighty at Ferrari and never looked to be cooling down any there.  

 

One season at Mclaren, with a car that rarely ever worked properly and couldn't overtake/defend anything worth a damn - I dont think the best situation to judge a driver.  

 

I'd be really surprised if he didn't look like a world beater again given a competitive and reliable car. 

 

His 2014 season in that pig of a Ferrari was absolutely epic. People forget he nearly won a race in it at Hungary. The things he did to Raikkonen that year were very very impressive. 

 

You can't read much into a car fighting for 16th place and breaking down every second race.

[Disgrace]

One of those meaningless stats- how often has the tarmac run-off saved him (and the rest)...

 

True but I don't think it's necessarily the right question. I would instead ask whether drivers would even be making these mistakes if the gravel deterrent was still there. Nobody really had a problem with staying within the white lines at Parabolica until they actually installed the tarmac run-off. So it's probably not the best indicator of skill if the problem is that of will.

[Marklar]

The problem about this stat is that its not really defined as "self-inflicted incidents" but as "retirements due to collisions/crashs". You can collide and crash self-inflicted w/o retiring and it wont stop your series. And if Maldonado decides to crash you out, then your series ends.

[Andrew Hope]

It's all in how you word it. You could say Maldonado is better than Webber if the criteria is Spanish GP wins in 2012, in a blue car, for a team whose garage later burned down. The same way you could say I'm better than John Bonham - not in terms of drumming talent, financial success or enjoyment of life, just in terms of drinking a lot of vodka yesterday and still being here today.

[Zava]

It's all in how you word it. You could say Maldonado is better than Webber if the criteria is Spanish GP wins in 2012, in a blue car, for a team whose garage later burned down. The same way you could say I'm better than John Bonham - not in terms of drumming talent, financial success or enjoyment of life, just in terms of drinking a lot of vodka yesterday and still being here today.

was it 2 liter though? because if not, it's not a fair comparison. on the other hand, you could argue that Bonzo was more experienced...

[Andrew Hope]

The only thing I've got more experience than him in is wasting time on the internet.

[Maustinsj]

In before the lock!