7 replies to this topic

[NeilR]

I have a production V6 transverse engine in a chassis with a deep, somewhat obstructive sump. What I'm curious in researching is the possibility of cutting 75mm out of the sump bowl and running a single stage scavenge pump to a deep tank on the firewall. Then using the original OEM pressure pump drawing from the bottom of this tank. It would allow me to drop the rather heavy engine 50mm and then run structure under the sump as well. Has anyone seen such an arrangement on a road car or race car?

[GreenMachine]

I have seen a Ford/Mazda MZR in a kit car that was using the stock pump as either scavenge or pressure pump, with an external pump for the other.  The kit came from the US, and may have been a Cosworth item, I know they do/did one for this engine.

 

It was done for similar reasons, to drop the engine far enough to fit under a low bonnet line.

[NeilR]

Thanks for that hint, it was very helpful.

I wonder if the metalurgy of the scavenge pump is different to the pressure side of things? Given it has to pump aerated, foamy oil, does it have to be made differently?

[GreenMachine]

I am no expert, but that is what the OE pump does - it is both scavenge and pressure.  Or am I missing something?

 

It might be worth looking at one of the modular multi-stage dry sump pumps, they seem to have similar looking modules for both, but maybe the internals are different.

[NeilR]

Did a search on this forum and there have been many discussions of dry sumps over the years - I should have looked at those.

[Lee Nicolle]

Did a search on this forum and there have been many discussions of dry sumps over the years - I should have looked at those.

There is a forum somewhere here. 

Is this engine north south or east west?

Whatever a scavenge pump needs TWO sections to one pressure section.

Some engines can use the original oil pump as you suggest, external mounted pumps in the most part.

Personally if you do half a job it is probably no more expensive to just fully dry sump the engine. And everything is compatible. Though unless it is a engine commonly used for motorsport you will have to fabricate everything to drive any external scavenge or 3 stage pump.

[NeilR]

The engine is transverse in a road/track car. Personally I don't like the idea of a dry sump, but getting the engine 50-60mm lower is attractive and being able to get structure past it even more so. I could also cut 25% of the sump well off and reshape it to get clearance for structure.

[Lee Nicolle]

The engine is transverse in a road/track car. Personally I don't like the idea of a dry sump, but getting the engine 50-60mm lower is attractive and being able to get structure past it even more so. I could also cut 25% of the sump well off and reshape it to get clearance for structure.

Why do you not like a dry sump. They are far more efficient and for a track car the only way too fly.

Whatever you do with an East West engine you will have some oiling problems.  An oil pan 20cm wide has dramas, the deeper the better, a pan 50cm wide is an oil control disaster.

If the car is front drive dont worry about lowering the engine as the weight distribution is a disaster anyway!

If rear drive the weight will be excellent but IF using a front drive  engine transaxle you are stuck with the engine height anyway as you have to make the CVs work as square as possible. Most IRS road cars if lowered more than about 2" create huge dramas with drive shafts. 

Though an East West engine there will cause even more oil surge as the grip and cornering levels will be higher.

 A proper race car has an engine North South, and a dry sump oiling.