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Inter-war rallying


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#1 D-Type

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 13:43

I've come to the conclusion that I know virtually nothing about the pre-WW2 rallying scene.

 

I know a bit about the Monte Carlo Rally; I have Martin Pfundner's excellent little book about the various Alpine Trials; I know that the RAC Rally started in 1932 as a relatively gentle drive to Torquay cumulating in some eliminating trials on the promenade there, road sections being restricted to 30mph by agreement between the RAC and the Police and other authorities.  I also know of the US pre-WW1 Glidden Tour but nothing beyond Wikipedia.  

 

And that's about it.

 

Can anyone provide any information on other events please?  Or pointers to where I can find information.  I'm not interested in results per se, but more in the type of event and type of car that competed, including permitted modifications.  

 

It's not for any project - just to satisfy my own curiosity.


Edited by D-Type, 04 February 2016 - 13:45.


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#2 RS2000

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 14:55

The term "rally" as we know it may well be in use retrospectively for some of those events - or is used in its purest form ie. a gathering.

Probably more relevant in the UK to research "trials" or "reliability trials", as in the 1000 Mile Trial etc.

 

Road timing is to this day limited to 30 mph (except on motorways - and quite modern RAC Rallies have taken advantage of that to screw competitors), especially post the "Chesham Report" which was implemented early in 1966. We of course had "Targa Timing" from when it was "invented" up until 1987, which made a mockery of 30mph. Better not say too much about that, especially as I was a Clerk of the Course then too. A section set at 90mph with the first cars getting in on their minute? No comment.

 

It is not easy now to find the true flavour of even 1960s rallies, leave alone 1930s. Peter Robinson's latest book "Memory Lanes - The Early Years" includes the last "Pre-Chesham" MN rally ever run. As to who ran it, look no further than AAGR on here. One thing that will strike you is the difficulty in deciding detailed route options between controls and the necessary encyclopaedic knowledge of which unsurfaced "whites" "went" and in what weather they did. More restrictive limitations to an exact route in every minor detail on more modern events largely removed those exact skills. 

 

For the 1930s I can only suggest contemporary magazine reports. Given that 50s RAC Rally reports were often of the type we find in the Motorsport archive (WB taking a couple of days out to comment - by surname only - on the style of driving viewed at a few points on the route), the 30s might well prove hilarious.


Edited by RS2000, 04 February 2016 - 15:03.


#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 15:25

That's an interesting field for study and one which I should know more about than I really do.

UK club rallying as I first came upon it in the 1950s was probably not much different from its immediate pre-war state and as has been noted in the RAC Rally thread, the RAC Rally was a simple collection of tests with road sections connecting them until 1960. The majority of Club rallies were road events by then and a VSCC friend was researching when that started, so sometime I'll ask if he got anywhere.

 

I should know when the 30 m.p.h. maximum average came in, but it is still there under RAC MSA Rules (R 2.3.2). and in the 1950s/early 60s we did have some enterprising ways of making a control to control 30 m.p.h. average quite difficult! e.g. the plot-and-bash half-mile (one minute) sector where the start of sector marshal handed out the route information for the sector which (Ideally) had a road junction within 100 yards. Targa Timing as invented at Oxford by John Brown was honest but soon became the dishonest kind as RS2000 tells us.

 

The traditional form of the Monte Carlo Rally with many starting points and huge distances to be covered before the concentration point and final run to Monte was unusual, if not unique, but you can see it goes with the "gathering" root of the Rally name. What was not unique was the element of endurance for the crews with continuous running for days on end and even in the RAC Rally of the1980s days were long and the rest periods were not - I remember opening the start control of a Welsh forest stage well after 11 p.m. and they had at least one more stage after that before a bit of rest and servicing in Machynlleth.

 

As for levels of modification pre-war just study the cars that did the Monte in the 1930s - or even just those that won - and anything seems to have been acceptable.

Here's the Ford that won in 1936

raliul-monte-carlo-910821a3a55e845787-94

 and the Delahaye that won in 1937

aed17bdc4647b57a59d565a818ee6c7d.jpg



#4 Darren Galpin

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 16:04

I've tried recording results at www.dlg.speedfreaks.org/archive/www2/rallying.html - but it is nowhere near complete! I've been more successful with the Glidden Tours, which can be found in www.dlg.speedfreaks.org/archive/book/book.html - Part 1 has longer results and route descriptions in it.



#5 Roy C

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 16:34

There are some interesting and amusing films of pre-War rallying on British Pathe's YouTube channel.

 

For example: https://youtu.be/FDA-tf0cZ0M



#6 BRG

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 17:10

It is difficult to say when rallying as we would recognise it separated from racing.  Early point to point races run on the public road would have looked more like rallies, as did the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio, with cars running at intervals rather than starting en masse.  Clearly the move to permanent circuits made races distinct from rallies, but there was a long period with long closed road circuits of sometimes considerable length. Then there is the distinction - if there is one - between trials such as the Lands End and rallies like the RAC.  All very hazy!



#7 Nick Wa

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 18:08

Rallies and trials (Hardcover)         

by S. C. H. Davis (Author) 1951.
 
Several copies for less than a pound from South American river co.
 
As its over 60 years since I read it I can only say it covers some 1930's Montes.


#8 uechtel

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:55

Among other contests (hillclimb, circuit race, beauty contest, driving skill contest, balloon hunt etc.) a "Sternfahrt" was part of every "Automobile Week" at Wiesbaden during the late Twenties. The format was like I understand the early Monte Carlo Rallies, raughly speaking, You could choose your route and your starting point wherever you wanted and the winner was who had covered the longest distance between a fixed starting time and the deadline for the arrive at Wiesbaden.

 

Certainly such a format must have lead more and more to speed excesses on open roads, which must have turned out very dangerous with the increase of general traffic. The solution was obviously to switch more and more towards "special stages", where speeding was not dangerous for other people.


Edited by uechtel, 05 February 2016 - 08:57.


#9 Rupertlt1

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 09:01

Some fragments on the R.A.C. Rally from the Glasgow Herald:

 

https://news.google....0,3783821&hl=en

 

https://news.google....76,478855&hl=en

 

https://news.google....1,4272573&hl=en

 

https://news.google....02,209318&hl=en

 

https://news.google....02,209318&hl=en

 

https://news.google....8,2350233&hl=en

 

https://news.google....71,992132&hl=en

 

https://news.google....5,2473233&hl=en

 

https://news.google....6,1967295&hl=en

 

https://news.google....6,1967295&hl=en

 

RGDS RLT



#10 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:44

It's interesting that so many of the rallies now regarded as classics (Acropolis, Swedish, 1000 Lakes, Safari, Tour de Corse, Sestrière/San Remo etc) all originated in the early/mid '50s.

#11 AAGR

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 17:26

Oh gawd .... may I ?

 

There is a book titled HISTORY OF RALLYING (by that celebrated know-all AAGR) which was published by Osprey in 1981, and is of course now long out of print. It covered everything from the dawn of time to 1980.

 

  Hardback, 208 pages, up to and including the Vatanen/Rothmans/Escort period, but cut-off was just before Quattro arrived on the scene. Mountains of pictures, mainly black-and-white, but a bit of colour too.

 

  I am sure it is available somewhere on the Internet ** ....

 

AAGR

 

**  There is - I have just looked....


Edited by AAGR, 05 February 2016 - 17:41.


#12 D-Type

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 19:25

Thanks Rupert, those articles give the flavour of what the RAC was all about.

I can see I'll be paying a few visits to "the South American river" and to a certain TNF-er's business site.



#13 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 17:36

Rally of Poland was first run in 1921.

Until late 1950s word Raid was used and initial full name of event was Raid Automobilklubu Polski (Raid of Automobile Club of Poland).

Pre-war ewents all had start and finish in Warsaw, length was from 600 kms in 1921 to 4500 kms in 1939. It was run on public roads, open to traffic. Average speed was given and no extra points were attributed for being faster. Addtional trials were placed en route, like a hill-climb, a gymkhana, a kilometre lancee (straigth line speed test) etc.

 

For results see my page: http://rajdpolski.prv.pl



#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 20:55

Grzegorz: many thanks for that! I'd found some of the reports of the Raid (my particular interest being the 1939 event), but not the previews and explanations. Technically, of course, Vladimir Formanek should be shown as representing Bohemia and Moravia, since Czechoslovakia no longer existed by then: press reports of the Belgrade races in September, where he won the 1100cc class of the sports car support event confirm that. I can understand why the Polish press ignored that though!

 

Google Translate isn't all that clear, but am I correct in thinking that both Mercedes Benz and Auto Union reconnoitred the course but didn't compete?



#15 uechtel

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 11:05

Maybe because his nationality was still Czech...



#16 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 19:59

Vladimir Formanek should be shown as representing Bohemia and Moravia


Google Translate isn't all that clear, but am I correct in thinking that both Mercedes Benz and Auto Union reconnoitred the course but didn't compete?

 

That's a very interesting point.

 

I have a report from 1939 Raid (run proudly as Grand Prix of Poland) in Auto monthly magazine, issue 6-7/1939.

 

A number of German competitors withdrew before start (DKW, Hanomag, BMW, Steyr, Horch and Opel Olympia and Kapitan, then Mercedes). Some of them practiced before rally (recce was still to be invented). German press stated that visa problems were cause of withdrawal, which is evidently false since all received visas and entered Poland for practice with no problems...

 

Two Czechs: Parizek and Voytechovsky were forbidden to start by their 'protectors'. Formanek stayed in Poland for a longer time before rally and he did not feel obliged to obey Germans.

Pole Józef Jakubowski entered a works Mercedes-Benz but one day before event he received a message that his car was not ready... Politics...

 

I had goosebumps reading the report, knowing what happened just a few weeks later...


Edited by GrzegorzChyla, 11 February 2016 - 20:03.


#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 20:46

Very interesting! That fits a pattern: from early June 1939 onwards it's my belief that the NSKK were actively intervening to prevent some German racing drivers and bike riders competing abroad in countries which might soon become enemies (notably in France). Press reports also indicate that the International Six Days Motorcycle Trial, which started the day after the Swiss GP at Bremgarten, was organised with much less than the usually expected German efficiency, possibly indicating that they didn't actually expect it to happen.

 

I know of Josef Vojtechovsky - he was a hop grower and exporter, a works driver for Aero at the time and re-emerged in 1946 at the Prague meeting with a Maserati 6CM, which he also ran at Geneva - but have never come across Parizek. So I guess Formanek's entry at Belgrade wasn't officially approved either, and the German press simply took advantage by describing him as from Bohemia & Moravia.



#18 uechtel

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 09:31

In a result list for Belgrad, as given in a German magazine, they avoided Formanek´s nationality/citizenship:

 

1. Formanek-Prag

2. Bogdanovic-Jugoslawien

and as well

1. Briem-Deutschland

etc.

 

I think Grzegorz post gives a plausible explanation for Formanek´s participation. He kept himself out of German "control", so they could not prevent him from racing. But he probably did not officially "represent" the Bohemia-Moravia "Protectorate".



#19 uechtel

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 09:48

Press reports also indicate that the International Six Days Motorcycle Trial, which started the day after the Swiss GP at Bremgarten, was organised with much less than the usually expected German efficiency, possibly indicating that they didn't actually expect it to happen.

 

With original intention to start the invasion into Poland on August 26th preparations had certainly been started already some weeks earlier. But I am not sure whether that already affected earlier events to the same extend.



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#20 Seedy

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 11:42

Whilst researching the Sunbeam Talbot Rally history over the last few years I was asked to transcribe a tape. It took me the best part of 18 hours and now covers 14 pages of A4 now. This was an interview with Norman Garrad – rally driver in the 1920s & 30s and later Team Manager for the Rootes in the 1950s. It was a fascinating insight into the Rootes Group and rallying particularly in the 1920s & 30s. Some of it was quite rambling, a bit muddled up and spoken in a way that we might not use today.

PLEASE NOTE - These words are exactly as spoken by Norman Garrad nothing has been changed and please remember that this tape was made many years ago.

There are many stories but this is perhaps the most chilling of them all and concerns a rally in 1939 (anyone know this event in 1939?).

I was taking part in some six day event which went into Germany and when I was stopped by a German soldier he got onto what we had in those days the running boards and said something like Englanda go home. I was much younger in those days and after he pushed his hand inside the window and pushed my head back, I decided to use my own method of getting rid of this pest. The rule of the road is on the right in Germany and some way ahead I just noticed a lamp post right on the edge of the road on a corner and would you believe it I mis-judged the turn with the result that my uninvited guest was knocked off the running board and left in the road. Too bad!! I stopped outside a town to pick up more petrol and a very friendly anti Hitler man said take my advice fill her right up and go go go. Which I did and thank goodness my tank held 35 gallons. I rate this as one of my particular lucky breaks as this Hitler man suddenly closed all petrol stations leading out of Germany. But I did get into Luxembourg where I could refuel again. I heard later that some of the people who took part on the same event we were on, were stranded in Germany and were interred for the duration of the war.

There is a bit more to this one but we will leave it there….

…and this a small section about the 1929 Monte Carlo Rally

The cars were all lined up in the town square, those that were actually in the event starting from Riga. All twelve of them. It was to be a massed start, so needless to say I had a very good look at how to get out of this square. Suddenly a young German driver called (Rudolf) Caracciola came up to me…please to keep out of my way I go very fast to that far corner in the square, which was the only way out onto the main road. I eventually realised why he said this as after he got through this hole onto the main road it’s a single line through the deep snow for miles and miles. A cannon fired with a hell of a bang I was fortunate I made a fantastic take off and reached the hole first ahead of the rest, followed by this chap Caracciola who appeared to be quite happy with my speed and just sat about a 100 yards back. This went on for about two hours when, arriving on a downhill corner where the wind had blown the snow off the road leaving only the ice, I overcooked it and skidded off the road and into a ditch. I said to myself, well that’s that good bye Monte Carlo Rally. Not on your life this chap Caricciola stopped looked at the situation in a glance stopped the next two cars and man handled my car back onto the road again. Well what do you know about that?

Chris

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 18:07

If he was definitely a competitor, the only possibility would seem to be the Liège-Rome-Liège (Marathon de la Route), which started on the evening of August 16th and finished on the afternoon of the 20th. But at that stage the British authorities had not yet ordered UK citizens to leave Germany.

 

However, it may be a confusion/conflation with the International Six Days Trial, which was centred on Salzburg, and was scheduled between the 21st and 26th. By that time private motoring had been banned in Germany and petrol was only available to foreigners with special 'tourist coupons'. I do wonder if he's confused Luxembourg and Liechtenstein though, since most of the British returned via the crossing at Feldkirch.

 

http://speedtracktal...t-1939-germany/

 

By the evening of Wednesday August 23rd, the more than 60-strong British contingent were becoming increasingly nervous about their safety – the organisers were already talking about offering safe passage out of Germany – and one of the Army riders had received a telegram recalling him to his regiment. The tipping point came when it was learned that French citizens had been advised to leave Germany within 24 hours: even so, the British riders continued for the fourth day, while telegrams flew backwards and forwards between team managers, teams and embassies. German daily papers had stopped reporting the event after the first three days and early on the Friday morning, almost all the British competitors, support teams and spectators abandoned the trial and headed west through Innsbruck into Switzerland and France, many of them riding their trials bikes home in convoys of up to thirty: the Army teams and the four remaining civilian riders stayed a few more hours, but they too were on the road by Friday night, escorted to the Swiss border via Munich and Bregenz by a Wehrmacht colonel, apparently on the orders of Adolf Hühnlein himself. History records that the 1939 International Six Days Trial – contested for the Hühnlein Trophy! - was won by Germany, but British riders had held most of the leading positions until the time they abandoned the event, so it would have been a somewhat hollow victory and it also seems that the FICM never ratified the result.