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Cowell: V6T Hybrids most powerful F1 engines ever


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#1 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 00:15

He may be talking only on Mercedes' F1 engine experience, as at the height of the turbo era in the '80s the engines were producing more power than he claims - certainly in qualifying, possibly in the race.

 

Mercedes are claiming that they are getting 50% TE for 2016's PU.

 

The headline, Cowell says, is that the V6 hybrid turbo is now the most powerful F1 engine ever – even greater than the 2005 V10s that revved to 20,000rpm.
Meanwhile the technology has advanced the efficiency of engines to 50 per cent, meaning that 50 per cent of the potential power than can be derived from a unit of petrol is being converted.

 
And

Combustion is one of the key areas of this technology and one where the largest gains are to be had. The fuel limit for an F1 Grand Prix, which is 100kg, has a potential output of 1240kw of power.

 
http://www.jamesalle...f1-engine-base/
 
 
620kW is 830hp.
 
IF that is just the crankshaft power, the total including ERS would b 990hp.
 



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#2 UraNage

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 00:39

Andrew Benson Retweeted

Michael Culliford Retweeted Andrew Benson

100% efficiency theoretically 1714 hp. So 49.001% required for 1000 hp (Inc ERS). Cowell aimed for 50% in 4 years.



#3 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 00:51

It's amazing to think the FIA projected the total power unit output would only equal the non KERS V8'S.

#4 917k

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:40

So, is this to say that we have already reached the 1000 bhp goal?

 

If so, I'm sure there will still be a line-up of gripers  to tell us how this is ''bad.''



#5 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:55

BUT how mucvh of that theoretical horse power is actually useable. And ofcourse that power is only available for Q.

For the race they have to go back to about 300hp so they do not burn too much fuel. and eat too many Pirellis..

All the talk with numbers really means very little. You can crank up the hairdryer to make silly numbers coupled with the electric motor for about half a lap. By then the tyres have said enough!

 

What they need is less aero, strong reliable n/a engines and tyres that are durable. Coupled with 100mm ride height, use the wings to give downforce not the floor.

No refueling, no tyre changes. A test of a drivers ability to get speed and make the tyres live



#6 uffen

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 03:38

Do we also assume that the batteries start with zero charge?



#7 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 03:42

That power is available any time they want it. In the race it would work in the overtaking mode.

 

The difference between that mode (MGUH drives turbo, wastegates open plus full MGUK power) and normal race mode is, most likely, not that much. Maybe 20-30hp. 

 

If the went back to "about 300hp" they would be a lot slower around the track than they are now.

 

It is true that the tyres are holding them back, and that helps reduce the issues with the race fuel limit (which was hardly a problem in 2015).

 

You must be the only person in the world advocating more reliance on the wings and less on the underbody.

 

100mm ground clearance. They are not rally cars.



#8 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 03:43

Do we also assume that the batteries start with zero charge?

 

In what sense?

 

They leave the pits with 0 charge, but are fully charged when the lights go out.



#9 917k

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 03:46

So, is this to say that we have already reached the 1000 bhp goal?

 

If so, I'm sure there will still be a line-up of gripers  to tell us how this is ''bad.''

 

 

BUT how mucvh of that theoretical horse power is actually useable. And ofcourse that power is only available for Q.

For the race they have to go back to about 300hp so they do not burn too much fuel. and eat too many Pirellis..

All the talk with numbers really means very little. You can crank up the hairdryer to make silly numbers coupled with the electric motor for about half a lap. By then the tyres have said enough!

 

What they need is less aero, strong reliable n/a engines and tyres that are durable. Coupled with 100mm ride height, use the wings to give downforce not the floor.

No refueling, no tyre changes. A test of a drivers ability to get speed and make the tyres live

 

Aaaannnd...that took 15 mins. :(



#10 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 05:00

BUT how mucvh of that theoretical horse power is actually useable. And ofcourse that power is only available for Q.

For the race they have to go back to about 300hp so they do not burn too much fuel. and eat too many Pirellis..

All the talk with numbers really means very little. You can crank up the hairdryer to make silly numbers coupled with the electric motor for about half a lap. By then the tyres have said enough!

 

What they need is less aero, strong reliable n/a engines and tyres that are durable. Coupled with 100mm ride height, use the wings to give downforce not the floor.

No refueling, no tyre changes. A test of a drivers ability to get speed and make the tyres live

No tyre changes make for very cautious racing as flat spotting a tyre would screw up your entire race. Nobody would attempt anything. 



#11 CoolBreeze

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 05:02

Who cares..they still sound like crap. 



#12 Lemans

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 05:19

How long before this turns into another thread full of 'V10 sound' videos?



#13 Petroltorque

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:32

Correct me if I'm wrong but if these PUs behave like heat engines 50% efficiency is 830bhp. You can't then add 160bhp from the ERS as that energy has already been taken off the fuel They can boost the peak output during a lap by using the battery store MGU-K . That depends on the power of the ES at a guess I would bet it's around 60bhp but that's metered at 2Mj a lap. so in short a peak output of 890Bhp. a far cry from the most powerful F1 engines. Most efficient yes, more powerful, no.



#14 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:36

In what sense?

They leave the pits with 0 charge, but are fully charged when the lights go out.


Do they? I always thought they left the pits fully charged?

#15 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:37

These hybrid power units are like quad core or octa core CPUs. They use less and perform more. Stunning technology.



#16 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:37

Who cares..they still sound like crap.

Got to move with the times... The hearing killing v*'s have had there day...

#17 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:38

How long before this turns into another thread full of 'V10 sound' videos?

End of the day? (Saturday?)

#18 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:40

Correct me if I'm wrong but if these PUs behave like heat engines 50% efficiency is 830bhp. You can't then add 160bhp from the ERS as that energy has already been taken off the fuel They can boost the peak output during a lap by using the battery store MGU-K . That depends on the power of the ES at a guess I would bet it's around 60bhp but that's metered at 2Mj a lap. so in short a peak output of 890Bhp. a far cry from the most powerful F1 engines. Most efficient yes, more powerful, no.

Electrical power to battery charge is capped - electrical power direct from MGU-H to MGU-K is UNLIMITED!

#19 jonpollak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:51

Who cares what Simon Cowell says ?

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#20 Timstr11

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 07:55

Impressive technology to squeeze as much power out of the fuel as possible.

Cowell also confirmed that the Mercedes engine was now delivering in excess of 900bhp.

This has all sorts of knock on effects:

Less wasted heat > Less cooling required > improved aero efficiency > which improves fuel consumption

Lower fuel weight > lower start weight


Edited by Timstr11, 06 February 2016 - 07:57.


#21 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:03

So, is this to say that we have already reached the 1000 bhp goal?

If so, I'm sure there will still be a line-up of gripers to tell us how this is ''bad.''

Good, but do not forget it is also a VERY heavy power unit. Much heavier than a V10 power unit making 950hp.

The hybrid power unit is AT LEAST 50 kg more compared to the V10 power unit, if not closer to 80 or 100kg more.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 06 February 2016 - 08:05.


#22 Petroltorque

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:10

Electrical power to battery charge is capped - electrical power direct from MGU-H to MGU-K is UNLIMITED!

They are already using the ICE - MGU-Heat - MGU-Kinetic unlimited take off to achieve 50% efficiency. that is the maximum amount of energy they can harvest from the fuel. If it was only the ICE only 37% of the available energy could be harvested.
They can use some of that 50% efficiency to charge the energy store under breaking or engine overrun.
The nexus of the technology is that not all of the ERS is stored in the battery. It's broken down where most is used to sustain the 50% efficiency of the PU and a smaller amount is stored in the battery to boost output on straights during a lap.

Edited by Petroltorque, 06 February 2016 - 08:28.


#23 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:18

Electrical power to battery charge is capped - electrical power direct from MGU-H to MGU-K is UNLIMITED!


Power is still capped to 160HP, energy flow is what is uncapped.

#24 Timstr11

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:18

Good, but do not forget it is also a VERY heavy power unit. Much heavier than a V10 power unit making 950hp.

The hybrid power unit is AT LEAST 50 kg more compared to the V10 power unit, if not closer to 80 or 100kg more.

 

-Exotic low weight materials, which the V10 benefited from, are banned for cost reason.

-The V10 did not have to last 5 races (lowers weight requirements for stressed parts)

-For cost reasons, the minimum weight is regulated at 145 KG for the V6T PU. The V10 did not have a minimum weight. 

-Where did you get the 950 BHP figure from? I think it was much lower.

-Please remind us how much fuel/weight the V10 would have to carry (without fuel stops) to complete a typical race.


Edited by Timstr11, 06 February 2016 - 08:26.


#25 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:26

Honda's V10 was almost 1000hp before the V8 came in, 950hp was well achievable.

#26 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:26

Honda's V10 was almost 1000hp before the V8 came in, 950hp was well achievable.

#27 Petroltorque

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:29

-Exotic low weight materials, which the V10 benefited from, are banned for cost reason.
-The V10 did not have to last 5 races (lowers weight requirements for stressed parts)
-For cost reasons, the minimum weight is regulated at 145 KG for the V6T PU. The V10 did not have a minimum weight. 
-Where did you get the 950 BHP figure from? I think it was much lower.
-Please remind us how much fuel/weight the V10 would have to carry (without fuel stops) to complete a typical race.

Match point to Timstr11.

#28 Timstr11

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:31

Honda's V10 was almost 1000hp before the V8 came in, 950hp was well achievable.

 

On the dyno probably.

 

The figures were between 900 and 930.

 

The most powerful engines in the V10 era was BMW I believe.



#29 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:35

The BMW was powerful in 2003-2004, they didn't produce an all new engine for 2005 like the others

#30 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:58

-Please remind us how much fuel/weight the V10 would have to carry (without fuel stops) to complete a typical race.

 

193-194kg/hr maximum fuel flow rate, again according to Andy Cowell.

 

So maybe 180-190kg for a race.

 

The V8s used 140-150kg for most races, and that was generally underfuelled (needed fuel saving during the race).


Edited by Wuzak, 06 February 2016 - 09:09.


#31 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:08

Good, but do not forget it is also a VERY heavy power unit. Much heavier than a V10 power unit making 950hp.

The hybrid power unit is AT LEAST 50 kg more compared to the V10 power unit, if not closer to 80 or 100kg more.

 

I would think 50kg is closer to the mark, not including the ES. The ES would weigh in at 25kg.

 

The PU weight includes a lot of items that were generally not quoted in weights for the V10 or counted in the minimum weight of 95kg fro the V8s.

 

Things like exhausts and oil tanks.



#32 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:12

Do they? I always thought they left the pits fully charged?

 

I didn't think they could, but they are able to under Parc Ferme, from the Sporting Regulations.



#33 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:18

Here is a full list of key engine and powerunit people from the start of Formula1 till now. I don't know how accurate it is but it is a good read.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...-designers.html



#34 Wuzak

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:23

Correct me if I'm wrong but if these PUs behave like heat engines 50% efficiency is 830bhp. You can't then add 160bhp from the ERS as that energy has already been taken off the fuel They can boost the peak output during a lap by using the battery store MGU-K . That depends on the power of the ES at a guess I would bet it's around 60bhp but that's metered at 2Mj a lap. so in short a peak output of 890Bhp. a far cry from the most powerful F1 engines. Most efficient yes, more powerful, no.

 

It is unclear whether the energy recovered by the MGUH is included in that efficiency number. You are probably right that it is.

 

Last year Cowell stated that the V6Ts without the ERS were as powerful as the V8s, with the ERS the V6s were as powerful as the V10s.

 

So, if we use that as a base line, without ERS ~750hp, which means 910hp with. That fits with the MGUH generating 80hp.

 

The amount of energy they can deploy from the ES per lap is 4MJ. The 2MJ is brake recovery. The remainder, and some more, is from the MGUH. I believe that is happening when the light flashes at the end of straights.

 

4MJ of 80hp (59.5kW) is 67s.

 

If the MGUH generates more than 80ho the amount the ES needs to supply is less and available longer. If it only needs 60hp from the ES, 4MJ can give ~88s. Or 44s from 2MJ.



#35 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:45

The efficiency numbers don't include the ERS.

Consider an engine at 45% efficiency. That's 558kW from the fuel or 747HP, which is around what the V8's put out - exactly what Mercedes claim. Their intent is 50% for 2016

#36 loki0420

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:19

-Exotic low weight materials, which the V10 benefited from, are banned for cost reason.
-The V10 did not have to last 5 races (lowers weight requirements for stressed parts)
-For cost reasons, the minimum weight is regulated at 145 KG for the V6T PU. The V10 did not have a minimum weight.
-Where did you get the 950 BHP figure from? I think it was much lower.
-Please remind us how much fuel/weight the V10 would have to carry (without fuel stops) to complete a typical race.


- V10 did have a minimum weight of 90 or 95 kg i believe
- McLaren recently mentioned on twitter they had 920 hp mercedes engine in 2005

#37 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:40

Amazing with all the constraints put on them.

Makes you wonder where they'll be in 2017 onwards with no token system.

Sky is the limit.

#38 Timstr11

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:49

- V10 did have a minimum weight of 90 or 95 kg i believe

 

The minimum weight stipulation was introduced in 2006 with the V8.



#39 TheRacingElf

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:09

To me this is only screams pro-V6 propaganda, look how amazing those hybrid engines are, please F1 fans accept them..!

Just telling people those are the greatest engines to have ever seen the daylight with a million zillion horsepower isn't going to win me over though, Mercedes...

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#40 Scotracer

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:11

Good, but do not forget it is also a VERY heavy power unit. Much heavier than a V10 power unit making 950hp.

The hybrid power unit is AT LEAST 50 kg more compared to the V10 power unit, if not closer to 80 or 100kg more.

 

The V10s would have to cary 50-100kg more fuel than the V6Ts to get the same performance over a race. That sounds weight neutral to me :)

 

I am all for more power - in fact I love it 0 - but I do sometimes see that it is in-effect an artificial limit through fuel flow. They COULD be at around 1500BHP if they had all the fuel they could throw at it.


Edited by Scotracer, 06 February 2016 - 11:12.


#41 Jejking

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:12

The efficiency numbers don't include the ERS.

Consider an engine at 45% efficiency. That's 558kW from the fuel or 747HP, which is around what the V8's put out - exactly what Mercedes claim. Their intent is 50% for 2016

45% is plucked out of thin air, i think it's higher than that, around 46 or 47. otherwise the margin they have to pick up for 2016 grows too big. No way Merc is going to find 85BHP in that area in a single year. 50BHP is more likely.


Edited by Jejking, 06 February 2016 - 11:17.


#42 Diablobb81

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:12

Most efficient engines. Yay?



#43 rodlamas

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:13

It's amazing to think the FIA projected the total power unit output would only equal the non KERS V8'S.

Well, they thought the fuel efficiency that 2006 V8s would be the same 10 years after that. And the answer is the one we are getting. 2016 we will be seeing 950bhp. 2017 we will reach 950bhp.

 

Just as matter of comparison, Mclaren this week tweeted that the Mercedes engine on the MP4/20 produced 920bhp. And that with a 194 kg/hr fuel flow.



#44 Clatter

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:14

Do we also assume that the batteries start with zero charge?

No. They are charged before they leave the pits.

#45 rodlamas

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:14

45% is plucked out of thin air, i think it's higher than that, around 46. otherwise the margin they have to pick up for 2016 grows too big. No way Merc is going to find 85BHP in that area in a single year. 50BHP is more likely.

Ferrari found 70-100 bhp from 2014 into 2015.



#46 FPV GTHO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:18

45% is plucked out of thin air, i think it's higher than that, around 46 or 47. otherwise the margin they have to pick up for 2016 grows too big. No way Merc is going to find 85BHP in that area in a single year. 50BHP is more likely.


Wow, 1-2%

#47 Clatter

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:19

But there is more scope for improvements when your baseline is lower. A lot of those improvements could have come from rectifying their mistakes which they couldn't do in-season before they even started on pure performance updates.

#48 rodlamas

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:23

I think those Power Units will be around 1,100 bhp in 2020 when everything is expected to be frozen. But then they will change everything, saying that engine performance grew a lot and electrical power has been the same since 2014.



#49 zztopless1

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:44

Electrical power to battery charge is capped - electrical power direct from MGU-H to MGU-K is UNLIMITED!

 

Energy between the MGU-H and MGU-K is unlimited, the power IS capped.



#50 AustinF1

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:58

It seems like something of a misnomer to say these V6T Hybrids are the most powerful engines ever, as if the V6 ICE aspect is somehow critical to that.