Jump to content


Photo

How about using proper names for foreign places?


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 ardbeg

ardbeg
  • Member

  • 2,876 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 13 February 2016 - 17:42

Vargasen? What's that? Either you write it Vargaasen or you write it properly Vargåsen!

Vargasen has a completely different meaning(s)! (Wolf bastards or Pus throttle instead of Wolf hill)


Edited by ardbeg, 13 February 2016 - 17:47.


Advertisement

#2 Zmeej

Zmeej
  • Member

  • 68,072 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 14 February 2016 - 17:04

What you meant, of course, is that you are in favour of the use of correct spellings of place names, aka toponyms.

 

A "proper name" aka a "proper noun" is either

- the given name of a person - e.g. William (and/or Bill), Sven, Sura, Sebastien, Serhij, etc.;

- a toponym - e.g. Stockholm, Kyiv, the Tronetrask, the Dnister, the Mississippi, Mt. Sagarmatha, etc.

 

IMO, no need to refer to toponyms for places outside of the UK (or North America, although there are many non-English ones there) as "foreign" - they've been assigned (and changed) via various forms of consensus by human inhabitants of this planet.

 

Apart from that, you make a good point about the use of diacritical marks and their equivalents. :up:

 

You're more likely to see an English-language publication and forum resort to the equivalents, because diacriticals can be, frankly, a pain.

 

FWIW, like using them myself, but find equivalents just as useful.

 

Could you provide a list of equivalents for vowels with diacritical marks in Swedish?


Edited by Zmeej, 14 February 2016 - 17:15.


#3 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,701 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 15 February 2016 - 11:17

I look forward to the report on the Grand Prix of Magyarorszag.



#4 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 5,907 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 15 February 2016 - 13:35

I'm all for writing Pérez, Räikkönen, Magyarország, Квят and ホンダ... although I reckon that most non-native speakers won't recognize the latter three names.  



#5 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • RC Forum Host

  • 12,846 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 February 2016 - 13:56

Well, some place names get an English translation. In Danish we have (to my knowledge) just two cities so honoured.

 

København = Copenhagen

Helsingør = Elsinore

 

In an English language article I would expect the English place names to be used for these. But for any other town/city in Denmark I would expect the article to use the best approximation of the original name.

So I have no problem in reading about the GP of Hungary, Shanghai or Kiev (sorry Zmeej).

 

And likewise, since we are talking about the Autosport web page, I can't understand why they can't write Pérez and Räikkönen since that is within the technical possibilities in the latin alfabet, but understand why they use Kvyat and Honda instead of the respective native alfabets.



#6 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 15 February 2016 - 16:45

I think it's the style guide from a long long time ago. So instead of Muecke or Mucke with the dots, it's just "Mucke".

 

I think at one point the accent marks *were* a problem. 



#7 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,742 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 15 February 2016 - 20:25

I think it's the style guide from a long long time ago. So instead of Muecke or Mucke with the dots, it's just "Mucke".

 

I think at one point the accent marks *were* a problem. 

Most British-based sites should (theoretically) use Hart's Rules, which has long been considered the 'gold standard' for British English. Americans tend to use the Chicago Manual of Style. Both would specify Copenhagen rather than København, since it's a widely recognised Anglicisation, but the rules do tend to change over time. For example, it's only in recent years that they've suggested using Livorno rather than Leghorn, Lwow rather than Lvov and the French spelling of Reims rather than Rheims. Not sure about Elsinore/Helsingør, but that's more about Shakespeare than anything else.  ;)

 

However, since the English language has steadfastly resisted diacritics throughout its history, even in the case of loan words (eg cafe, cliche, facade, fete) typewriter manufacturers didn't even bother offering them as part of a standard keyboard. For umlauts, you just added an e (if you could be bothered). This is really the written equivalent of "If they don't understand, shout louder" of course. :p

 

But even if you know your way around Windows Charmap, it's still not easy to find some of the more obscure letters with diacritics from languages like Swedish, Hungarian or Czech. And as for committing all their ASCII codes to memory ...

 

(I do like the concept of a pus throttle though!)



#8 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,701 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 15 February 2016 - 20:42

I find a refusal to use diacritics a fair revenge for the loss of ð and þ because they were not in early printing fonts.  If they're going to get rid of two immensely useful letters just because they can't pronounce a dental fricative, then why the intercourse should we use stupid and pointless acutes and cedillas?



#9 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 15 February 2016 - 22:53

Most British-based sites should (theoretically) use Hart's Rules, which has long been considered the 'gold standard' for British English. Americans tend to use the Chicago Manual of Style. Both would specify Copenhagen rather than København, since it's a widely recognised Anglicisation, but the rules do tend to change over time. For example, it's only in recent years that they've suggested using Livorno rather than Leghorn, Lwow rather than Lvov and the French spelling of Reims rather than Rheims. Not sure about Elsinore/Helsingør, but that's more about Shakespeare than anything else.  ;)

 

However, since the English language has steadfastly resisted diacritics throughout its history, even in the case of loan words (eg cafe, cliche, facade, fete) typewriter manufacturers didn't even bother offering them as part of a standard keyboard. For umlauts, you just added an e (if you could be bothered). This is really the written equivalent of "If they don't understand, shout louder" of course. :p

 

But even if you know your way around Windows Charmap, it's still not easy to find some of the more obscure letters with diacritics from languages like Swedish, Hungarian or Czech. And as for committing all their ASCII codes to memory ...

 

(I do like the concept of a pus throttle though!)

 

I think it was an issue of how it displays on the screen, and possibly how the internet coding/database-whatevers looked at the characters. There was as much a technical issue as one of style. 



#10 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 19,631 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 15 February 2016 - 22:56

This board BBC code understands acronyms: Copenhagen. <== Hover over the underlined text to see what it does.

 

The magazine might be able to use them too. And then since a few years there is also the HTML the ruby tag available (since HTML 5) that most modern Editor tools are unfortunately oblivious of. Every browser understands them and probably lend themselves better for a mobile device,

 

Maybe using acronyms is a bit bending the idea of them, however the main issue IMO is that sometimes writers are stuck in the world of printed media, where using brackets to display an alternative text just didn't made for fluid reading. Time to move into the digital age.


Edited by HP, 15 February 2016 - 22:59.


#11 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 19,631 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 15 February 2016 - 23:12

I think it was an issue of how it displays on the screen, and possibly how the internet coding/database-whatevers looked at the characters. There was as much a technical issue as one of style. 

I knew one of the guys who was developing the first computer (Those of the size of a house, and being less powerful than our mobiles today). He challenged software engineers back then to think further ahead, and not to think just in ASCII. Unfortunately few were thinking as far ahead as he was, and thus there was the resulting mess. But the issue could have been avoided entirely. RAM was premium back then, but the speed of adding more RAM to devices was even back then faster than most engineers could develop a decent app.

 

Would ASCII be developed these days some people might even call it being racist, because it focusses on the English alphabet.



#12 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 15 February 2016 - 23:40

I've seen photos captioned as Mücke Motorsport but when you export the image data you get M<random characters>cke Motorsport which you then have to find/replace back to Mücke Motorsport in the database or whatever you're doing. 



#13 Zmeej

Zmeej
  • Member

  • 68,072 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 16 February 2016 - 03:37

HP :wave:

 

Would ASCII be developed these days some people might even call it being racist, because it focusses on the English alphabet.

 

Damn straight. :up: :mad:

 

The creators of the American Standard Code for Information Interchange probably were a bunch of Euro-racist hegemonists with a sub-cabal of the Anglo-Celtic-French. :cool:

 

 

Commentary on the other contributions anon... :stoned:



#14 GenJackRipper

GenJackRipper
  • Member

  • 280 posts
  • Joined: January 15

Posted 16 February 2016 - 15:49

Vargasen? What's that? Either you write it Vargaasen or you write it properly Vargåsen!

Vargasen has a completely different meaning(s)! (Wolf bastards or Pus throttle instead of Wolf hill)

As a swede, I have no problem with Vargasen.
We're the only one that has Å. A is a rather okay letter to replace with.



#15 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 16 February 2016 - 16:49

I will start to worry about this once I hear that the French, Spanish and Italians have started to refer to 'London' rather than Londres/Londra.



#16 Zmeej

Zmeej
  • Member

  • 68,072 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 16 February 2016 - 22:53

V2 :wave:

 

it's only in recent years that they've suggested using ... Lwow rather than Lvov

 

Actually, the currently correct form for that city is Lviv, the Ukrainian version of the name, which has been strongly suggested since Ukraine's independence in August 1991, i.e. for 25 years, which is recent in evolutionary and geological time.

 

For that matter, it was also referred to as Lviv at the time of its founding in the mid-13th century, during the time of the Galician-Volhynian principality (i.e. the western offshoot of Kyivan Rus') until the late 14th century when it was captured by the Polish Crown.

 

A large influx of Polish and German merchants, etc. and the granting of rights under the Magdeburg Law meant that after Casimir I's seizure of the city it was long officially known as Lemberg (German) and Lwów (Polish - pron. Lvoof), i.e. all the way through to the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire. After WWI, it was incorporated into the Polish Republic, and was thus officially known as Lwów until it was handed over to the Soviets under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

Under Nazi occupation, it was again known officially as Lemberg.

 

Incorporated into the Ukrainian SSR in 1939-41, and then 1945-91, it was known as Lviv. Folks from Russia/the RSFSR/the Kremlin referred to it as "Lvov," which is the Russian version of the name, but throughout this period it was predominantly Ukrainian, and continues to be.


Edited by Zmeej, 16 February 2016 - 22:55.


#17 ardbeg

ardbeg
  • Member

  • 2,876 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 17 February 2016 - 12:59

As a swede, I have no problem with Vargasen.
We're the only one that has Å. A is a rather okay letter to replace with.

10 years ago I would have been OK with it as well, but we are past  those times. Had it just been been about the dot I would not care, but it is not, it is the assumption that vowels are  interchangeable, thet yiu cen raplice iny af thom weth inathur whytuit eny prebloms. Sometimes you cin, sometimes you **** and to know when you can, you need to know the language in question.


Edited by ardbeg, 17 February 2016 - 13:01.


#18 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,703 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 February 2016 - 16:45

thet yiu cen raplice iny af thom weth inathur whytuit eny prebloms.


Maybe it's because English is devoid of any standardised rules that any native English speaker should be able to read that perfectly well. Vowels are interchangeable as a matter of course in English. You read the words, not the letters.

#19 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 17 February 2016 - 16:49

I thought ardbeg was writing in South African demotic.  That is to say Seerth Effreken...



Advertisement

#20 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,703 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 February 2016 - 17:00

I thought it was a Derry accent

#21 ardbeg

ardbeg
  • Member

  • 2,876 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 18 February 2016 - 00:35

Maybe it's because English is devoid of any standardised rules that any native English speaker should be able to read that perfectly well. Vowels are interchangeable as a matter of course in English. You read the words, not the letters.

 

"Is that your pot?"
"Yes, my dogs name  is Hurry"

"Don't touch the dick, Agnes!"
"But it came swimming right towards me!"

"Where did you get that tin?"
"I was at Barbados last week, it was very hot"