28 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

Today I was looking at Jackie Stewart's Formula 1 debut in the 1964 Rand GP.  He took pole position for the first heat but broke a half shaft at the start.  He won the second heat.  So debatably he won his first Formula 1 race.  Debatable because this assumes he didn't actually start the first heat.

 

What is undeniable is that Giancarlo Baghetti did win his first Formula 1 race when he won the 1961 Syracuse GP.

 

The question is are there any other drivers who won their first Formula 1 race?  (I have a feeling this has come up previously but I can't find it using the "Search" function.

Edited by D-Type, 11 October 2016 - 21:22.

[Michael Ferner]

Giuseppe Farina, hawhaw.

[sabrejet]

That guy Google would know.

 

Edit: You can work it out from here:

 

https://en.wikipedia...pionship_season

Edited by sabrejet, 25 February 2016 - 20:05.

[Collombin]

Tony Brooks?

[ensign14]

Enrico Bertaggia, heat 2 of the Bologna Sprint in 1989.  Also Antonio Tamburini in heat 3 in 1991.

[D-Type]

Giuseppe Farina, hawhaw.

First World Championship race but Jean-Pierre Wimille won the 1947 Swiss GP.  Or was the Kanonloppet (SP?) the first Formula 1 race

 

Tony Brooks?

I thought about him, but he drove John Risely-Pritchard's 2-litre Connaught in a couple of minor F1 races before Syracusa.

 

That guy Google would know.

 

Edit: You can work it out from here:

 

https://en.wikipedia...pionship_season

That only covers World Championship races and ignores non-Championship Formula 1 races.

[Vitesse2]

Giuseppe Farina, hawhaw.

Achille Varzi, Gran Premio del Valentino, 1946

 

Or maybe Reg Parnell, Swedish Winter GP, 1947

 

Or if that was actually Formule Libre and the fact that all the entries for that and the Stockholm GP complied with the new Formule Internationale was purely coincidental ...

 

Nello Pagani, Pau 1947

 

Of those three, I'd say Pagani actually has the strongest claim, since although he'd run at Barcelona the previous year, that was supposedly run to the 1938 Formula. However, I'm not sure how a Cisitalia D46 fitted those rules, given that it was too narrow and too light, so de facto it was really Formule Libre. 

[Michael Ferner]

First World Championship race but Jean-Pierre Wimille won the 1947 Swiss GP.  Or was the Kanonloppet (SP?) the first Formula 1 race

 

Nah, not 1950. Formula One was officially introduced in 1947, wasn't it? If so, Farina drove his first F1 race at Geneva in 1948 - and won! He drove his second F1 race at Monaco 1948 - and won again!!

 

[uechtel]

Nah, not 1950. Formula One was officially introduced in 1947, wasn't it? If so, Farina drove his first F1 race at Geneva in 1948 - and won! He drove his second F1 race at Monaco 1948 - and won again!!

 

No, 1947 was just a formula change of the old International Formula´s technical regulations. Nothing more like for example the change between 1965 and 1966.

 

What was introduced in 1948 was Formula 2, so the other Formula became Formula 1 (or Formula I or Formula A) just to have some way to name it. So Formula 1 was never "introduced".

 

So technically the first Formula 1 race should have probably been the Pau GP of 1948 with Nello Pagani as the winner?

Or you have to look back when the first International Grand Prix Formula was introduced..

Edited by uechtel, 26 February 2016 - 08:31.

[Michael Ferner]

... so back to Oostende, 1908 - or even earlier, the Heavy Car class at Paris - Marseille in 1896. Yes, I know all this (hence my "hawhaw" comment in the first post), and I'm the last person to get lost in these semantics. In fact, I am usually the one getting the rap for pointing this out in the first place, but this time I'm just playing along...

Anyway, whether F1 was introduced in '47 or '48, Farina is still a first-time winner, and a second-time winner to boot.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 26 February 2016 - 09:16.

[uechtel]

Only if you regard Formula 1 as being "introduced". If you regard it as continuation of the International Grand Prix Formula then of course Farina did have starts before.

 

Otherwise you would perhaps have also to name the first winner after each Formula change (like Fangio for the 1954 Argentinian GP, Surtees 1961 Glover Trophy, Spence 1966 South African GP etc.)

 

I agree with you it should be the Oostende Formula, AFAIK the first "general" Formula that the AIACR had agreed on. In 1896 it had been only a technical specification just for one event.

[D-Type]

No, 1947 was just a formula change of the old International Formula´s technical regulations. Nothing more like for example the change between 1965 and 1966.

 

What was introduced in 1948 was Formula 2, so the other Formula became Formula 1 (or Formula I or Formula A) just to have some way to name it. So Formula 1 was never "introduced".

 

So technically the first Formula 1 race should have probably been the Pau GP of 1948 with Nello Pagani as the winner?

Or you have to look back when the first International Grand Prix Formula was introduced..

 

I've never looked at it that way before. 

 

Should we go one stage further and say that it wasn't until 1950 with the introduction of Formula 3, which was never 'Formula C', that the terms 'Formula A' and 'Formula B' were finally universally consigned to oblivion?

[MLC]

What is undeniable is that Giancarlo Baghetti did win his first formula 1 race when he won the 1961 Syracuse GP.

 

I think he won his first three. Two were non-championship races, but impressive none the less. Though I don't know if he ever won any after that....?

[ensign14]

Tannoy at the British GP when he breaks down from midfield:  "And Baghetti is beaten at last!!!!"

[Arjan de Roos]

Baghetti won, indeed, however in races with mild competition or when all three team mates retired. Yet with the Ferrari super machine he did fend off the two works Porsches in France. No bad driver.

[Arjan de Roos]

Jacques Villeneuve... nearly.

[D-Type]

Here's a few possible candidates, some have been identified before but I've repeated them where its relevant, eg Varzi in Switzerland as Wimille also featured there:

 

Reg Parnell - ERA - 1947 Swedish Winter GP (if it was a Formula 1 race), or - Maserati 4CL - 1947 Jersey international Road Race (if the Swedish race wasn't and this was a Formula 1 race

Achille Varzi - Alfa Romeo 158 - 1947 Swiss GP Heat 1

Jean-Pierre Wimille - Alfa Romeo 158 - 1947 Swiss GP Heat 2

Christian Kautz - Maserati 4CL - 1947 Reims GP

Geoffrey Ansell - ERA- 1948 British Empire Trophy (was this his first Formula 1 race?)

Guy Mairesse - Talbot Lago - 1949 GP des Frontieres

Georges Grignard - Talbot Lago -1950 GP de Paris (was this his first Formula 1 race?)

David Hampshire - Maserati 4CLT - 1950 Nottingham Trophy, Gamston  (was this his first Formula 1 race?)

John Riseley-Prichard - Connaught 2 litre - 1954 Davidstow June  Formula 1 Race

John Coombs - Lotus-Connaught - 1954 Davidstow August Formula 1 Race

Luigi Musso - Maserati 250F - 1954 Pescara GP  (was this his first Formula 1 race?)

Karl Kling - Mercedes Benz - 1954 Berlin GP, Avus

 

I'm not certain whether all of these were in their first F1 race as I may have missed an earlier race.  Please say if I have

[Roger Clark]

Karl Kling?

[Tim Murray]

Unless I'm missing something here, surely Musso and Kling can be ruled out. Musso drove in the 1953 Italian GP (F2) and I believe the first F1 race he started was the 1954 Rome GP. Kling had already driven in five World Championship GPs in 1954 before his win at AVUS, finishing second in his F1 debut at Reims.

David Hampshire drove in many F1 races from 1947 onward before his win at Gamston in 1950. Likewise, Georges Grignard and Guy Mairesse had both done a fair few F1 races before their respective wins. Geoffrey Ansell had done at least one F1 race (the 1948 Jersey Road Race) before his British Empire Trophy wiin.

Edited by Tim Murray, 28 February 2016 - 11:13.

[D-Type]

Thanks for all the corrections - I'm afraid simply ran down the results on a website and put up those that appeared to be firsts, obviously without checking as thoroughly as I should.. Cananyone else discount more of them?

 

But the few genuine ones do show how rare it is, even including the artificial ones from the early days of Formula 1, and the British club races for F1 cars,

[D28]

 

I think he won his first three. Two were non-championship races, but impressive none the less. Though I don't know if he ever won any after that....?

No that was it for Baghetti,  but nonetheless still a very impressive debut;  and he did hold off Dan Gurney at the French GP, no mean feat.

Edited by D28, 29 February 2016 - 18:59.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Or was the Kanonloppet (SP?) the first Formula 1 race

 

 

Kanonloppet at Gelleråsen race track was introduced in 1950 and the first F1 race there was in 1961.

 

 

Or maybe Reg Parnell, Swedish Winter GP, 1947

 

Or if that was actually Formule Libre and the fact that all the entries for that and the Stockholm GP complied with the new Formule Internationale was purely coincidental ...

 

There was no word of "Formula 1" when they raced in the Swedish Winter GP at Rommehed airfield in 1947. But all the cars followed the same international rules. The only Swedish car had to be rebuilt to comply with the rules. If it had been a FLibre race, there would have been several faster Swedish cars that could have started.

 

The next race, Vallentunaloppet (Stockholms GP was a F2 race in 1948) two weeks later, was run on a frozen lake with the track sprinkled with sand. No other cars apart from those who followed the international rules were allowed to start. Parnell won that too. (The Rommehed track was made up from gravel that was sprayed with water and left to freeze in the cold winter of '47).

[D-Type]

Tomas, are you sure the regulations for the Swedish Winter GP called for cars complying with the International Formula, ie 4.5 litre u/s or 1.5 litre s/c, that later became known as Formula 1?  That question has implications beyond this lighthearted  trivia thread as it answers the serious questions  "What was the first Formula 1 race?"  and "Who won it?".  

 

What is the correct name for this race?  I clearly got it wrong .

[jeffbee]

No that was it for Baghetti,  but nonetheless still a very impressive debut;  and he did hold off Dan Gurney at the French GP, no mean feat.

 

 

Not quite!!

 

Coppa Italia in November 1961 at Vallelunga, another non-championship race.  Baghetti, driving a Porsche 718, of all things because Ferrari couldn't spare a car, won both heats and therefore on aggregate.  This was to secure the Italian F1 championship, over Bandini.  The Porsche was entered by Scuderia Saint Ambroeus, although it was owned by de Beaufort

Edited by jeffbee, 29 February 2016 - 21:11.

[D28]

Not quite!!

 

Coppa Italia in November 1961 at Vallelunga, another non-championship race.  Baghetti, driving a Porsche 718, of all things because Ferrari couldn't spare a car, won both heats and therefore on aggregate.  This was to secure the Italian F1 championship, over Bandini.  The Porsche was entered by Scuderia Saint Ambroeus, although it was owned by de Beaufort

Thanks. Looked up his non-championship results, but didn't scroll over far enough. !961 was a good year for sure, this confirms his results were not just due to luck, or a superior Ferrari.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Tomas, are you sure the regulations for the Swedish Winter GP called for cars complying with the International Formula, ie 4.5 litre u/s or 1.5 litre s/c, that later became known as Formula 1?  That question has implications beyond this lighthearted  trivia thread as it answers the serious questions  "What was the first Formula 1 race?"  and "Who won it?".  

 

What is the correct name for this race?  I clearly got it wrong .

Yes, I am sure they used the international rules. I haven't found any official paper to prove it, but according to the Swedish motor press from the time the new Grand Prix rules were announced by FIA in the spring of 1946. And "Sveriges Vinter Grand Prix" was a Grand Prix race.

The only Swedish car, Nobelius' Bugatti, was an old 2-litre without compressor. Nobelius rebuilt an engine to a 1,5 and mounted a Roots compressor to comply with the rules. It didn't work... There were also two other unindentified cars entered (one was going to be a Mercedes 1,5-litre!), but they never materialized and the drivers never showed up.

The fastest Swedish car at the time, an Alfa 8C Monza, dominated in a ice-race at Stockholm in the week between the two Grand Prix-races. It was of course not allowed to race in the international events.

The entered Maseratis and French cars didn't get to race at Rommehed, since the ship that were taking them to Sweden got stuck in the ice outside of Gothenburg. But they were able to take part in the Vallentuna race (Vallentunaloppet). Everybody wasn't all that impressed by the cars performance in the freezing cold and there were an interesting comment in the Swedish press about the Delahayes - These cars are actually sportscars!

[Vitesse2]

Tomas, that's very interesting! I think everybody outside Sweden has always assumed they were Formule Libre. The new rules were official from January 1st 1947, having been announced in July.

[jeffbee]

Thanks. Looked up his non-championship results, but didn't scroll over far enough. !961 was a good year for sure, this confirms his results were not just due to luck, or a superior Ferrari.

 

The Ferrari was definitely superior to anything else, in horsepower, in 1961.  The Porsche was pretty handy too, and it's power was on a par with the best Coventry Climax engines available.  The field at Vallelunga was pretty thin and Baghetti wasn't on pole.  That honour fell to Vaccarella in a Cooper Maserati, who finished 3rd.  Believe it or not a couple of de Tomaso F1s came 4th and 5th!

 

But Baghetti was no slouch.  He was very competitive and set fastest lap in the Italian GP, and secured pole at the Pergusa sports car race that year.  My view has always been that he made the mistake of leaving Ferrari after a dismal 1962 and then made an even bigger mistake in listening to promises and joining ATS.  By 1964 he was completely demoralised, and reduced to making up the numbers.  A shame.    

[D28]

Agree Baghetti was no slouch. Interestingly he scored 4 F1 wins in 1961, twice the tally of WC Phil Hill, though some like Vallelunga were scarcely contested.That was not his fault. Always seemed a shame that most of his success came in the one year.