517 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

Bizarre that Mercedes have only given themselves enough SS for one run in FP3 and then 4 in quali, that's really cutting it fine if you mess up in Q1 or 2 you're left with only one run in Q3.

In the past they often used one worn tyre either in Q2 or Q3. Or an harder tyre in Q1.

[TomNokoe]

In the past they often used one worn tyre either in Q2 or Q3. Or an harder tyre in Q1.

They haven't done that at all this season though, despite easily having the pace.

Used in Q2 gives you a bad race-start tyre.

Used in Q3 seems nigh on pointless to me, it gives the driver a very small idea of the track to work with and possibly they will then underestimate the grip on their final fun. Better than nothing though.

After Mercedes worries on the soft last year (they drove well below the limit to make the strategy work), it seems they've split their strategy ever so slightly.

[Marklar]

Used in Q3 seems nigh on pointless to me, it gives the driver a very small idea of the track to work with and possibly they will then underestimate the grip on their final fun. Better than nothing though.

And yet they've done it more than once last year ;)

 

The whole tyre choice stuff could be very interesting if aggregrate qualifyings are happening. Either the teams are doing both lap times on the same set (possible!) or almost everyone will run out of SS tyres the latest by the end of Q2.....

[midgrid]

I notice that the China graphic features Alonso's name.  If, however, Alonso does not recover in time and Vandoorne races again, does he get to choose a different allocation or is he stuck with Alonso's decision?

[Marklar]

I notice that the China graphic features Alonso's name. If, however, Alonso does not recover in time and Vandoorne races again, does he get to choose a different allocation or is he stuck with Alonso's decision?

takes Alonsos allocation due to logistical reasons

[Cig35]

If we get the aggregate qualifying, where you need to have two good qualifying laps in each session I strongly suspect that some teams will run out of new supersofts during the qualifying. So I wonder how many of the teams have the guts to go to Q1 and run softs. That could be interesting to see. But then we don't know yet what qualifying format will be used in China...

 

(Edit: Marklar had already pointed this out...)

Edited by Cig35, 05 April 2016 - 15:48.

[KingTiger]

Supersofts will get totally shredded in China, I don't think an aggressive strategy will work here. Aggregate qualifying will only screw the small teams, again, because the top teams can do a fast-slow-fast trio and still be quicker than the midfielders who will need to burn two sets in Q1 and Q2. 

[Quickshifter]

The medium tire has a narrow temperature window, does not have any additional significant life,  has longer warm up time and is easily slower by a second or even more per lap based on the circuit. From now onwards you will see majority of the teams gravitating towards soft tire for races and supersoft for qualifying  or short stints during  races. Only tracks like Barcelona/Silverstone will be a misnomer.

Edited by Quickshifter, 05 April 2016 - 17:36.

[Marklar]

Well, on tracks like Barcelona and Silverstone the medium tyre is not the hardest tyre anyway.

We expected the soft tyre to be the best tyre in Melbourne. Turns out it was the medium. In Bahrain we expected the medium tyre to be the best tyre. In the end it was the super soft...this certainly adds some unpredictibility

[KingTiger]

I think front limited tracks like Australia and China will favor the harder tires, while rear limited tracks like Bahrain or Hockenheim will favor the softer compounds.

[FPV GTHO]

I think the problem with the medium tyre is its designed to operate at a lower temperature than the soft.

[cokata]

I think the problem with the medium tyre is its designed to operate at a lower temperature than the soft.

Yep weirdly the medium did better than the Soft in Aus, where it was cold-ish. Probably the soft were graining. In Bahrain it seemed that the medium was the worst tire. It was the slowest tire and didn't seem to last more than the Soft (it was probably overheating).

Edited by cokata, 06 April 2016 - 07:19.

[Marklar]

Russia 

 

 

(btw, this is the only circuit so far where Pirelli didn't nominated an softer compound than last year)

Edited by Marklar, 19 April 2016 - 09:25.

[Stephane]

Well, they really have to bring the mediums there ? No one will use them.

[Marklar]

Well, they really have to bring the mediums there ? No one will use them.

If some very early SC is appearing then some might use the medium tyre to go to the end. And the guys who are involved in first lap crashes will be happy about medium tyres as well. But that's it pretty much. I reckon that it wont have the same variety as in the previous races. 

[Quickshifter]

Medium tire is pretty redundant at Sochi. The tire wear is low and pace the difference is huge.  Soft and Supersoft are the way to go.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Red Bull going super, super aggressive.

[LiftAndCoast]

Red Bull going super, super aggressive.

Agree, though Alonso made the supersoft last 40 laps last year, so I don't think it's the gamble it first appears.

[Exb]

I expect they will all pretty much end up with a similar allocation by qualifying, looking at the extremes (Red Bull/Ferrari), then probably something like Red Bull will run most of the practice sessions on supersoft and Ferrari on soft (eg Red Bull FP1 S/SS, FP2 SS/SS, FP3 SS/SS leaving for quali 1M, 1S, 5SS and Ferrari FP1 S/S, FP2 S/SS, FP3 S/SS leaving for quali 1M, 2S, 4SS. And if Ferrari can get through Q1 on a soft set (should be doable) then both could end up with 1 new soft and 1 new SS for the race (assuming 1 run is enough in both Q1, Q2 and 2 runs on new tyres in Q3)

[hamilton10000]

Don't think that the new tyre rules are really gonna make any difference here. Because there is such low deg at Sochi it is probably just gonna be a standard SS-S 1 stop strategy like we had last year.

[Marklar]

Don't think that the new tyre rules are really gonna make any difference here. Because there is such low deg at Sochi it is probably just gonna be a standard SS-S 1 stop strategy like we had last year.

As I mentioned before: this is the only circuit where Pirelli isn't providing softer tyres than last year (last year SS/S), hence the race strategy will be exactly the same as last year. I do wonder why they didn't nominated Ultrasofts here. Because the deadline was before testing? Possible.

[Kev00]

At most it will be a SS-S-SS race strategy so I would expect to see teams taking 5SS-1S-1M into qualifying.

[Marklar]

Austria tyres: US, SS, S
Mandatory: SS, S

[cokata]

Austria tyres: US, SS, S
Mandatory: SS, S

Me likey. Sub 1:06 pole weather permitting.

Edited by cokata, 28 April 2016 - 10:45.

[TomNokoe]

Ultra Soft in Austria! Loving it

[LongTooth]

Austria tyres: US, SS, S
Mandatory: SS, S

 

What's this, now?

[ConsiderAndGo]

What's this, now?

 

Must use each of these compounds in the race.

[Exb]

Must use each of these compounds in the race.

Must use ONE of these compounds in the race

[Marklar]

Must use ONE of these compounds in the race

Must use AT LEAST ONE of these compounds in the race

[ConsiderAndGo]

Must use ONE of these compounds in the race

 

Yep! that's what I meant! Still need to use two compounds in the race. Duh!

[Risil]

Phew. Glad we've got that one clear.

[Quickshifter]

Even the fastest guys are calling these tires poor today and have been for a long time now. Hamilton was scathing in his criticism. Kimi Räikkönen wasn't exactly complementary while everyone was complaining about sliding and lack of grip. So many drivers going in to multiple spins and running off the track and not every time the  mistakes were responsible rather the tires offering no feel whatsoever in the braking zones.

 

Why is it that we end up talking more about tires than the drivers/cars/teams which is what f1 should be about. Another weekend where everyone is talking about tires. Yes we have had issues with tires in the era of previous manufacturers but the overall lack of grip even from supersoft tires is actually letting the drivers and the sport down badly.

 

Pirelli do not have an easy job but this is formula 1 which is the pinnacle of motor racing and standards must to be met. The tire pressures are in road car category now. What is the point of having wider tires if the contact patch is going to be ridiculously small due to increased pressure?  The cars that we currently have are capable of doing more consistent and faster lap times if only we had tires the drivers could lean on.  Just imagine the softest compound available on a weekend  comes up to life on third or fourth lap at this venue and at others go out of breath if you push them harder on the out lap.

 

I have always exercised restraint about criticizing Pirelli but this is getting ridiculous now. Is it impossible  to make tires with a linear wear rate which reward drivers who push?  Yes tire management has been there since the inception of formula one but this is beyond ridiculous now. How can you manufacture tires which are neither quick nor last long. Simply Wow. I am not basing this based just on today's practice sessions but for a long time now and when you look at the last three races you will see drivers engaging cruise control [lol] just to make sure they don't crack those egg shells. Seriously the drivers are fed up, the teams are fed up and we have Pirelli doing nothing about it whatsoever. Now they have even bigger excuse of concentrating on next year and we are in for shower of sh*t as far as tires are concerned this year.

Edited by Quickshifter, 29 April 2016 - 18:49.

[Massa]

Thanks quicksilver.

[SenorSjon]

I wonder what will happen if you bolt LMP1 tires on a F1 car.

[ANF]

So many drivers going in to multiple spins and running off the track and not every time the  mistakes were responsible rather the tires offering no feel whatsoever in the braking zones.

Including Jenson Button! I can't remember the last time I saw Button spin on his own like that (although I'm sure someone will point out it happened only a couple of months ago).

[Marklar]

Including Jenson Button! I can't remember the last time I saw Button spin on his own like that (although I'm sure someone will point out it happened only a couple of months ago).

Even on the same circuit

https://youtube.com/vPRcJ-1X69Y

Also remember Bahrain in practice last year

Edited by Marklar, 29 April 2016 - 21:34.

[Jovanotti]

They want to get away with the cheapest solution. I don't believe for a second they are asked to bring these kind of compounds, or aren't able to do better.

Edited by Jovanotti, 29 April 2016 - 22:31.

[FPV GTHO]

Hamilton said he was spinning out from pushing so hard, so you need to factor that. He was likely pushing so hard because of how smooth the track surface is and the lack of heat being generated in the tyres.

[Marklar]

[Jovanotti]

So Pirelli are practically forcing teams into a uniform tyre choice with offering a range that's too hard.

[FPV GTHO]

Too hard? Barcelona is one of the hardest tracks on tyres, of course they're going to take the hardest available tyres.

[Marklar]

So Pirelli are practically forcing teams into a uniform tyre choice with offering a range that's too hard.

In previous years we just had hard and medium here. And yet we saw 2 and 3 stops. I expect a lot variety in the strategy

[ANF]

The hard tyres are just not very good, are they?

[Marklar]

The hard tyres are just not very good, are they?

Yeah, tbh Pirelli could get a rid off them. Nobody would really miss them given the awful grip they provide

[ConsiderAndGo]

The hard tyres are just not very good, are they?

 

They do seem rather pointless, tbh.

[FPV GTHO]

Last years race was mostly single stints for the Hards except Verstappen who did 2 so it wasnt the prefered race tyre in Spain. Years ago Pirelli needed the Hard for Sepang, Bahrain, China, Spain, Silverstone, Spa and Monza. They hardened the tyres up for the new engines though which led to this years new Ultra Soft basically being the Super Soft from the V8 era. This year with the softer tyres used for qualifying its highly likely the Hards wont be used by the winner. Last year of course though Vettel won in Malaysia by prefering the Medium whilst Hamilton and Rosberg had to race the majority of laps on the Hard. Even the Red Bulls spent over half the race on the Hard. I think you'd risk a 4 stop strategy then at Sepang without the Hard or just a boring race with race long tyre conservation. 

[rodlamas]

Too hard? Barcelona is one of the hardest tracks on tyres, of course they're going to take the hardest available tyres.

It actually proves that tires are too hard, which is something we have been seeing for the last 5 years, Tires are too hard and wear out too fast. It's better to multi-stop and use for a longer period of time the softest compound available at a race rather than using harder tires in less pit stops.

 

I think we will see 3 and 4 stops strategy. With 3 or 4 stints on softs and 1 on mediums.

[Jovanotti]

Too hard? Barcelona is one of the hardest tracks on tyres, of course they're going to take the hardest available tyres.

By the looks of it, the hardest compounds are too hard even for Barcelona. Look at the tyre choices. The hards are useless. They should have brought M, S and SS, now that would have created some variation in strategies. But you can't realistically expect them to do that when they don't even have faith in their own product.

[Marklar]

By the looks of it, the hardest compounds are too hard even for Barcelona. Look at the tyre choices. The hards are useless. They should have brought M, S and SS, now that would have created some variation in strategies. But you can't realistically expect them to do that when they don't even have faith in their own product.

They are in Spain already one compound softer than last year (as on all other races except of Russia as well). I don't think that the choice is bad. And Melbourne proved that even if they chosed just 1-2 sets of the hardwe tyres that they will play a role in the race.

 

It has nothing to do with not having faith in their own product in this case, quite the opposite. They wouls prove that they don't have faith in their hardest compound if they would ignore it on one of the best tracks for that.

Edited by Marklar, 03 May 2016 - 13:30.

[rodlamas]

Basically Melbourne and Barcelona are totally different tracks. Melbourne is a traction track, so tires suffer from a lot of thermal degradation at the rear, and cars will start to oversteer like crazy, which means a harder tire that operates better on higher tempratures will be better.

 

At Barcelona you basically need the front tires more, so you basically need grip´. If you go harder, you will slide like crazy, probably inducing graining. So it's better to use softer tires and then go for more pitstops.