3999 replies to this topic

[Oho]

I would say that at least the people who are suggesting Räikkönen should retire ought to develop a modicum of intellectual honesty and say what they truly mean which is Räikkönen should be retired, which is quite a bit different. Me I don't know, perhaps I suffer some mild case of masochism needing my fix of disappointment every fortnight while the season is on, while hoping probably in vain he could turn it around. That said I really don't think, and this applies to ~100% of forum writers, I am fit to provide him or his employer any advice.

Edited by Oho, 15 June 2016 - 03:51.

[registered]

It's sad that this topic went desperately silent when Kimi delivers.


But I understand it, my little Alonso fans.
Alonso is highly overrated, slow and not capable to lead car evolution. It's the fact.

At least Alonso showed that even if you're right that he is faster than Kimi and so Kimi has to be even slower.

[Lone]

At least Alonso showed that even if you're right that he is faster than Kimi and so Kimi has to be even slower.

Too bad he couldn't take Santander with him so he could be faster than Button also .

Anyway, back to the drivers who are actually driving the car...

[wj_gibson]

Too bad he couldn't take Santander with him so he could be faster than Button also .

Anyway, back to the drivers who are actually driving the car...

Which rather gives the lie to the idea that Alonso's superiority over his Ferrari team mates was driven by Santander, no?

[Marklar]

There are 9 points between Kimi & Seb now. Curiously enough it's the same amount as between Nico & Lewis.
Can't wait for Baku. At least the weather should be hot.

With the difference that in one battle the driver behind in the standings was unluckier so far, while in the other the driver ahead...

However, this stuff doesnt belong here in this thread.

[Lone]

With the difference that in one battle the driver behind in the standings was unluckier so far, while in the other the driver ahead...
However, this stuff doesnt belong here in this thread.

Still, only one of the drivers gets massive critic for his performance and calls for his retirement, mostly by fans of other drivers. Are you also one of those?

Regarding bad luck, surely you don't believe that Vettel has been that unlucky compared to Kimi as Hamilton has been to Rosberg, or do you actually?

Edited by Lone, 14 June 2016 - 09:38.

[YoungGun]

With the difference that in one battle the driver behind in the standings was unluckier so far, while in the other the driver ahead...

However, this stuff doesnt belong here in this thread.

 

You're always fair and objective with your comments. 

Edited by YoungGun, 14 June 2016 - 08:48.

[Trust]

If anything, Vettel was lucker of the two or at least equal. You can't count Seb's gearbox issue as unlucky, as it was directly connected to the accident he made with Kimi, unlike Kimi's gearbox in Monaco for example which was out of his control.

Edited by Trust, 14 June 2016 - 08:52.

[RECKLESS]

Let's define luck again.

 

edit: I'll go first. We're all lucky to be born and alive so everything else is an added bonus.

Edited by RECKLESS, 14 June 2016 - 09:09.

[as65p]

Too bad he couldn't take Santander with him so he could be faster than Button also .

Anyway, back to the drivers who are actually driving the car...

 

Touching to see how Kimi fans like you keep the memory of 2014 alive. Admirable effort, but really, this ain't the thread for it.

[MRswede]

I must say, respect for seb stickning up for the team strategy in interviews post race. You win as a team, you loose as a team. Thats a true champion. Ricciardo should be looking sebs way in terms of manner and stop crying out like a baby

[Radion]

Kimi only 9 points behind Vettel. 

 

       

 

Get in there Kimi!

 

[Oho]

I must say, respect for seb stickning up for the team strategy in interviews post race. You win as a team, you loose as a team. Thats a true champion. Ricciardo should be looking sebs way in terms of manner and stop crying out like a baby

 

I guess it was bit of a shitty luck with VSC ending so early, Räikkönen ended up getting even rougher end of the stick being dropped into heavy traffic but then they knew it as they tried to cancel the stop but it was too late.

[Alexandros]

Which rather gives the lie to the idea that Alonso's superiority over his Ferrari team mates was driven by Santander, no?

 

Spanish GP '14...

[Takis1]

who would you like to see driving next to Vettel in 2017 in case (not saying it is going to happen) KR leaves?

 

P.S...you can mention any driver and not only the ones that can or will be free for 2017.

 

[Lone]

Touching to see how Kimi fans like you keep the memory of 2014 alive. Admirable effort, but really, this ain't the thread for it.

I was missing your much appreciated posts in this thread so I wanted to say something to get you back here. And here you are :-).

[Jon83]

who would you like to see driving next to Vettel in 2017 in case (not saying it is going to happen) KR leaves?

 

P.S...you can mention any driver and not only the ones that can or will be free for 2017.

 

 

Vandoorne.

 

 

[Alexandros]

Kimi only 9 points behind Vettel. 

 

       

 

Get in there Kimi!

 

 

 

If we see past things that are beyond the drivers control (like crashes, mechanical failures, flawed pit stop strategies), the 2 drivers should be nearer the 95-110 point mark right now.

 

- Problematic strategy in Australia (Kimi and Vettel stayed out in the SC losing 1-2) and then a flaming kaboom (DNF) for Kimi

- DNS for Vettel in Bahrain

- Vettel crashed Kimi in China (losing Kimi points - Vettel was almost unaffected finishing #2)

- Vettel was crashed by Kvyat in Russia (in part due to the gearbox penalty - otherwise Kvyat would not have been in a position to ram him)

- Failed pit call and problematic subsequent strategy for both due to the quick termination of VSC in Canada

 

I'm not mentioning Kimi's ordered retirement in Monaco with a broken front wing, as its highly speculative whether he would score points anyway if he rejoined with a new wing. He also had a mechanical penalty so he was starting further back anyway - which is not ideal for Monaco.

 

In Spain theoretically Vettel was also hampered, but since the two teams (RBR+Ferrari) were mirroring different strategies, one driver would always get 2 stops and the other 3 stops - as they were doing the same. If everyone just went to 2 stops, nothing major would change, except the order of finish (Ric/Vettel in front of Max/Kimi). Plus I'm not sure it was beyond Vettel's control as he said he was actively pursuing aggressive strategies to get ahead.

 

And since we are at it, in terms of visible driving mistakes during the races I think we have something like:

 

1) Vettel understeering / going straight in australia while chasing P1

2) Vettel crashing Kimi in china after getting sandwitched with Kvyat

3) Kimi understeering / breaking the wing in wet Monaco (and then ordered to park it)

4) Vettel understeering in the left-hander after the uphill (Monaco) and going straight for the barriers (very lucky escape - another driver crashed in a similar manner there)

5) Vettel losing the brakes / going straight 3 times in Canada, one while leading, two while chasing P1.

Edited by Alexandros, 14 June 2016 - 11:27.

[Lone]

who would you like to see driving next to Vettel in 2017 in case (not saying it is going to happen) KR leaves?
 
P.S...you can mention any driver and not only the ones that can or will be free for 2017.
 

Verstappen, not a fan but Nevertheless I have to admit that he's the most talented driver I have seen since Kimi came in to F1. It would be sort of a poetic justice to see the great talent replaced by the next talent .

I guess this should be in the silly season thread but since I'm celebrating my 13th wedding anniversary today I''m going to be a little naughty today :-).

[Jovanotti]

who would you like to see driving next to Vettel in 2017 in case (not saying it is going to happen) KR leaves?

P.S...you can mention any driver and not only the ones that can or will be free for 2017.

Sainz deserved a shot imo.

[Lone]

Sainz deserved a shot imo.

Not convinced yet regarding his racecraft.

[Veemax]

Gotta laugh on some of the posters on here. Some with thousands of posts on their belt. Kimi hatred seems to sit well on their shoulder. Despite what these clueless hacks claim the scorecard is accurate for the season. Vettel has been slightly better but only that. The fact that Kimi's worst races have been these last two is unfortunate but over the season they have been almost equal.

[EBD]

At least Alonso showed that even if you're right that he is faster than Kimi and so Kimi has to be even slower.

 

It comes with the price.

 

2 year of car development with front pull-rode wasted.

This is Alonso in a nutshell.

[myattitude]

I'm convinced the McLaren Kimi was an entirely different animal to what he has been ever since, and even at his current age, a McLaren-esq Kimi would be in the championship fight in this year's Ferrari.

 

His problem is his work environment. He hated Ron with a passion but that tight control over his drivers produced results for him. He says Arrivabene is the best boss he ever had, but what that probably really means he likes him the most. The best boss he ever had was Ron Dennis and if Ferrari can get him less relaxed and more laser focused, Vettel would be playing the number 2 role this season.

[Lone]

I'm convinced the McLaren Kimi was an entirely different animal to what he has been ever since, and even at his current age, a McLaren-esq Kimi would be in the championship fight in this year's Ferrari.
 
His problem is his work environment. He hated Ron with a passion but that tight control over his drivers produced results for him. He says Arrivabene is the best boss he ever had, but what that probably really means he likes him the most. The best boss he ever had was Ron Dennis and if Ferrari can get him less relaxed and more laser focused, Vettel would be playing the number 2 role this season.

I believe, and this is coming from a hardcore Kimi fan, that Kimi today lacks some of the ultimate speed he had at McLaren. But I also believe that he still has enough speed to be as fast as Vettel or any other top driver on the grid, not more but about the same. Vettel is very good, make no mistake about that, very complete much like Alonso but faster. Beating him over a season is no easy task.

Kimis problem is that this formula doesn't suit his driving style and he has no intention of changing it, and even if he did he would not be any faster anyway. This adaptation BS that is so often circulated on this forum is just that, BS. All drivers have a certain style which they have perfected and even if some makes some tweeks they all stay true to their style.

I agree with you that Kimi needs a perfect working enviroment to be at his best but I disagree that he doesn't have that at Ferrari. Ferrari seem to trust Kimis abilities and give him what he wants, atleast this time around. That's my view anyway.

[Niceman]

I'm convinced the McLaren Kimi was an entirely different animal to what he has been ever since, and even at his current age, a McLaren-esq Kimi would be in the championship fight in this year's Ferrari.

 

His problem is his work environment. He hated Ron with a passion but that tight control over his drivers produced results for him. He says Arrivabene is the best boss he ever had, but what that probably really means he likes him the most. The best boss he ever had was Ron Dennis and if Ferrari can get him less relaxed and more laser focused, Vettel would be playing the number 2 role this season.

 

I think it's more about the tyres.  Schumacher was very vocal about them being so weak.  Let's hope next years are an improvement.

[FrontWing]

I believe, and this is coming from a hardcore Kimi fan, that Kimi today lacks some of the ultimate speed he had at McLaren. But I also believe that he still has enough speed to be as fast as Vettel or any other top driver on the grid, not more but about the same. Vettel is very good, make no mistake about that, very complete much like Alonso but faster. Beating him over a season is no easy task.

Kimis problem is that this formula doesn't suit his driving style and he has no intention of changing it, and even if he did he would not be any faster anyway. This adaptation BS that is so often circulated on this forum is just that, BS. All drivers have a certain style which they have perfected and even if some makes some tweeks they all stay true to their style.

I agree with you that Kimi needs a perfect working enviroment to be at his best but I disagree that he doesn't have that at Ferrari. Ferrari seem to trust Kimis abilities and give him what he wants, atleast this time around. That's my view anyway.

Perhaps he has the speed occasionally, but it's only occasionally. His main problem is his lack of consistency the last couple years. In some races he just goes completely missing compared to his teammate.

According to Webber, none of the drivers liked the tyres when they where introduced in 2011. I don't think any of them like them now. They just have to deal with it though. The best drivers adapt, it's not BS, Hamilton for example drives very differently now to before 2011. Is Kimi too stubborn or does he lack the ability to change?

Edited by FrontWing, 14 June 2016 - 21:31.

[myattitude]

Yeah the conservation racing philosophy isn't to his enjoyment either, and we know how Kimi is, if he's not thrilled with something, you won't get the best out of him.

[Lone]

Perhaps he has the speed occasionally, but it's only occasionally. His main problem is his lack of consistency the last couple years. In some races he just goes completely missing compared to his teammate.
According to Webber, none of the drivers liked the tyres when they where introduced in 2011. I don't think any of them like them now. They just have to deal with it though. The best drivers adapt, it's not BS, Hamilton for example drives very differently now to before 2011. Is Kimi too stubborn or does he lack the ability to change?

Again, the adaptation part is BS. Let's take Hamilton as an example, since you mentioned him, he was very poor with the Michelins. I don't expect you to remember a comment made by Kimi early 2007 when asked about Hamilton by the British press. The question was about how Kimi thought Hamilton would do in his rookie season. Kimis said that a driver who can't make the tyres last for even three laps... But In came Bridgestone and Hamilton was a lot more comfortable, then came the rock hard Pirellis, not at first because those first tyres Hamilton couldn't adapt to, and then came the tyres we have now, the Pirellis which Kimi has difficulties to get working while Hamilton seems to be a genius who is a tyre master.

It's all about style and what style these crappy Pirellis suits. Drivers who brake late and hard, which makes the tyres work as they should, benefits a lot more than other drivers. It's not about adaptation just style. If you ask me these tyres doesn't require any talent, only that you have a style that fits them.

These Pirelli tyres are not proper race tyres,I believe every driver on the grid agrees with me, even those who benefits the most.

Edited by Lone, 14 June 2016 - 22:39.

[Slowersofterdumber]

I'm convinced the McLaren Kimi was an entirely different animal to what he has been ever since, and even at his current age, a McLaren-esq Kimi would be in the championship fight in this year's Ferrari.

 

His problem is his work environment. He hated Ron with a passion but that tight control over his drivers produced results for him. He says Arrivabene is the best boss he ever had, but what that probably really means he likes him the most. The best boss he ever had was Ron Dennis and if Ferrari can get him less relaxed and more laser focused, Vettel would be playing the number 2 role this season.

 

It´s the tyres and cars, not psychological mumbo-jumbo.

 

In the tyre war days you got to pick between a vast array of compounds the one that fitted your car and driver better. You had a lot of freedom with alignment, geometry and pressures. You CREATED your own sweetspot. Kimi was an ace at that.

 

Nowadays you drive what they give you, with the pressures they say, and the alignment limits they decide to enforce. Kimi is bad at that.

Edited by Slowersofterdumber, 14 June 2016 - 22:34.

[FrontWing]

Again, the adaptation part is BS. Let's take Hamilton as an example, since you mentioned him, he was very poor with the Michelins. I don't expect you to remember a comment made by Kimi early 2007 when asked about Hamilton by the British press. The question was about how Kimi thought Hamilton would do in his rookie season. Kimis said that a driver who can't make the tyres last for even three laps... But In came Bridgestone and Hamilton was a lot more comfortable, then came the rock hard Pirellis, not at first because those first tyres Hamilton couldn't adapt to, and then came the tyres we have now, the Pirellis which Kimi has difficulties to get working while Hamilton seems to be a genius who is a tire master.

It's all about style and what style these crappy Pirellis suits. Drivers who brake late and hard, which makes the tyres work as they should, benefits a lot more than other drivers. It's not about adaptation just style. If you ask me these tyres doesn't require any talent, only that you have a style that fits them.

These Pirelli tyres are not proper race tyres,I believe every driver on the grid agrees with me, even those who benefits the most.

Yeah, Hamilton had trouble with the Michelin tyres in 'testing' because he was used to driving on Bridgestones. I'm sure he'd have gotten the hang of it though, just like Alonso had to get used to the Bridgestones after the driving Michelin tyres.

These tyres don't require talent?
Please...you're sounding foolish now. You may as well say it doesn't require as much talent to drive a Newey car with traction control, both of which when taken away, saw a drop off in Kimi's supposed speed.

Edited by FrontWing, 15 June 2016 - 00:44.

[YoungGun]

Yeah the conservation racing philosophy isn't to his enjoyment either, and we know how Kimi is, if he's not thrilled with something, you won't get the best out of him.

 

In my short time here "I know what i'm doing" always comes to mind. Is that a myth about Kimi?

[A3]

I already thought Sebastian was one of the nicest guys on the grid, now I'm definitely sure:

 

https://www.facebook...974711152642018

[sopa]

I would say that at least the people who are suggesting Räikkönen should retire ought to develop a modicum of intellectual honesty and say what they truly mean which is Räikkönen should be retired, which is quite a bit different.

 

Well, you have a point about semantics.   

 

Teams should be the ones to take bold decisions about drivers.

 

Drivers themselves may want to drive till infinity if they enjoy racing, and who can blame them!

[josepatches]

I think kimi at least this year is an ok number 2 driver so i'm not against him staying at Ferrari one more year. Plus he has a lot of supporters and for sure it helps

My only concern is if both drivers are working in the same direction in terms of where the car should be improved because every weekend their opinion about the car to the media arent really similar.

[Takis1]

I think kimi at least this year is an ok number 2 driver so i'm not against him staying at Ferrari one more year. Plus he has a lot of supporters and for sure it helps

My only concern is if both drivers are working in the same direction in terms of where the car should be improved because every weekend their opinion about the car to the media arent really similar.

Different driving styles might be the reason...

[sopa]

Have to say that back in McLaren Raikkonen indeed seemed like a top driver. He beat Coulthard pretty convincingly (at least as thoroughly as Hakkinen had beaten before), and did so with Montoya as well. Though pace-wise Montoya was closer (than DC), but on the flipside was inconsistent and error-prone too.

 

But it is not relevant any more, what happened 10 years ago. Just like M.Schumacher's performance in 2002 wasn't relevant in 2012 any more. Out of nostalgia it can be discussed somewhere though.

[Niceman]

My only concern is if both drivers are working in the same direction in terms of where the car should be improved because every weekend their opinion about the car to the media arent really similar.

 

Do you have an example?  I feel quite the opposite message coming out.

[Niceman]

Have to say that back in McLaren Raikkonen indeed seemed like a top driver. He beat Coulthard pretty convincingly (at least as thoroughly as Hakkinen had beaten before), and did so with Montoya as well. Though pace-wise Montoya was closer (than DC), but on the flipside was inconsistent and error-prone too.

 

But it is not relevant any more, what happened 10 years ago. Just like M.Schumacher's performance in 2002 wasn't relevant in 2012 any more. Out of nostalgia it can be discussed somewhere though.

 

Yes, all those clever engineers looking over all that data missed it.

 

Didn't the comeback test in the Lotus dismiss nonsense talk like this?   Lotus knew the laptime the car was capable of and Kimi went out and set that time.  They changed the fuel and said that this should make the car X different.  Kimi went out and delivered the time that they expected instantly.

[Alexandros]

My only concern is if both drivers are working in the same direction in terms of where the car should be improved because every weekend their opinion about the car to the media arent really similar.

 

In a few months it won't really matter anymore as the rules will be different for next year. Kimi's grip problems might be alleviated and we may be looking at a scenario where he is destroying the field. At least we can hope 

[Seanspeed]

But again and again you seem to rate or not rate a driver based on who you like.

Beyond unbelievable. I do NOT like Alonso. I LIKE Kimi. I do anything BUT rate a driver based on who I like. I've been called a Lewis basher just because I'm not a fan of his persona even though I rate him right with Alonso at the top.

You should really look in the mirror to see somebody who lets their affection towards a driver affect their ability to objectively rate them.

My god.

Edited by Seanspeed, 15 June 2016 - 19:05.

[LEO10]

In a few months it won't really matter anymore as the rules will be different for next year. Kimi's grip problems might be alleviated and we may be looking at a scenario where he is destroying the field. At least we can hope 

[RPM40]

Did Kimi lack updates that Vettel had? 

 

There was quite an unbelievable pace difference between them. I heard gossip of only one Ferrari getting the engine updates.

[Oho]

Did Kimi lack updates that Vettel had? 

 

There was quite an unbelievable pace difference between them. I heard gossip of only one Ferrari getting the engine updates.

 

Unlikely, that said Räikkönen said and was corroborated by the team that he was on economy run for most of the race and the engine upgrade I understood was about MGU-H. Anyway Räikkönen explained/excused his performance in part with fuel saving which also hurt the tires with falling temperature. Well maybe he has slightly heavier foot and was forced burn fuel to cut through the pack after 1st round of stops.

[beqa16v]

I think Kimi will have 2 more races where he is somewhere between apalling and averige (Baku and Spilberg) considering characteristics of these tracks. Will be sad couple of races for his fans including myself. He should retire by the end of the year with some good results in the championship and hopefully another win. He has been quite good in the begining of the season. Monaco-Canad has been a disaster combo for him sinche the comeback.

[myattitude]

I didn't see all the replies.

 

As a Schumacher fan in the 2000s, Kimi was the only driver I would be scared of, not Alonso, but Kimi. He had a frightening turn of speed and could pull out something from nowhere.

 

 

He was Lewis Hamilton before Lewis came along. I'm sure this is still within him somewhere, wherever it is.

[VolvoT5]

I didn't see all the replies.

 

As a Schumacher fan in the 2000s, Kimi was the only driver I would be scared of, not Alonso, but Kimi. He had a frightening turn of speed and could pull out something from nowhere.

 

 

He was Lewis Hamilton before Lewis came along. I'm sure this is still within him somewhere, wherever it is.

It is a shame Kimi doesn't hook together qualifying laps like that anymore.... there is normally always a small error under braking into a slow corner or something.... I think China was a good example

[Heisenberg]

His problem is his work environment. He hated Ron with a passion but that tight control over his drivers produced results for him. He says Arrivabene is the best boss he ever had, but what that probably really means he likes him the most. The best boss he ever had was Ron Dennis and if Ferrari can get him less relaxed and more laser focused, Vettel would be playing the number 2 role this season.

From the outside (cause that's all we can judge anyways!), I never liked Ron Dennis that much. Arrivabene seems much more of a likeable character or boss, you name it. But from the INSIDE of the team, we can only assume these things! I don't think if Kimi had a boss like the Ron from 2005, he would have brought those strong results. He might have actually got fired for performances like the ones he produced last year! 

 

This season has been a good one for Kimi thus far, apart from Monaco and Canada, unlike last year, when bad luck/mistakes/insert here whatever you want, were the norm! So he definetly does deserve a contract for 2017. But he will always be the driver that you are going to approach best by giving him a new contract every year, instead of signing a 3 or 5 year contract from the get-go.

[Heisenberg]

I didn't see all the replies.

 

As a Schumacher fan in the 2000s, Kimi was the only driver I would be scared of, not Alonso, but Kimi. He had a frightening turn of speed and could pull out something from nowhere.

 

 

He was Lewis Hamilton before Lewis came along. I'm sure this is still within him somewhere, wherever it is.

Those days are long gone! Kimi was a killer back then! No doubt he's changed. I always supported Michael AND Kimi, even if I was always a Ferrari fan at heart and never a McLaren fan!

[Radion]

 

 

 

Mate, mate, mate. Have you learned nothing.

 

It's a Newey car. All his speed was due to that.

 

Edited by Radion, 16 June 2016 - 13:54.