302 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

Haas has shown more in two races than either Caterham or HRT could achieve in eight seasons combined. They're much more competitive and assuming it's no longer possible to set up a proper team from scratch, then their model is the only credible approach to modern F1. Grid numbers are also important. That's why it's good for the sport.

 

But there's no doubt how dependant they are on Ferrari. If teams like Sauber or Manor suddenly go bankrupt, and all of the replacements only follow the Haas model, then the grid will become much more homogenous with cars that heavily derive from the top teams. Making grid numbers dependant on those top teams concentrates their power. This isn't necessarily sustainable and therefore bad for the sport.

 

I'm inclined to think it's good for F1 as things stand. Time will tell of course but right now and on balance, do you think the Haas quasi-customer car approach is good for F1?

[Jonnycraig37]

It's brilliant. The sport needs as many teams as possible competing at the front end.

[chrcol]

for sure this is the way forward for new teams.

[Victor_RO]

Yes. An extra team that seems to be consistently competitive straight off the bat cannot be bad news.

[Timstr11]

We are basically looking at Ferrari chassis/aero technology.

Therefore I don't see Haas as an independent constructor, so i'm not impressed.

Edited by Timstr11, 03 April 2016 - 16:46.

[aray]

Yes,if other small teams can get this kind of opportunity,but i voted for 'no' because they are the only one.Sauber has been Ferrari's collaborator for long period,but didn't get such luxury.

Edited by aray, 03 April 2016 - 16:44.

[Marklar]

I love it. It's always refreshing to have a successfull new team in F1, in whatever way they achieved it.

[KingTiger]

It's good. I'd rather have pseudo customer cars than slow Hispanias that can not even make the 107% at times.

[santori]

I think it's very good - but also that it shouldn't be used criticise teams like Williams who are making more of their own car. There's room for both approaches

 

And one approach can become another, as it did with Tyrrell.

[Victor_RO]

I think it's very good - but also that it shouldn't be used criticise teams like Williams who are making more of their own car. There's room for both approaches

 

And one approach can become another, as it did with Tyrrell.

 

Aren't Haas hiring aerodynamics people at the current time to go and work with Dallara? Suggests to me like they'll want to move the design in-house at some point and just outsource the chassis construction to Italy, so they should be changing their approach at some point as Tyrrell did.

[discover23]

Sauber depended on Ferrari and BMW
Toro Rosso on Red Bull
Force India on Mclaren and Mercedes

The fact that Haas is doing it so well out of the bat is what is shocking .
We need more teams like these since it is now obvious that teams like FI, Williams, STR and Mclaren have stagnated and not moving the sport forward after they get shown up by Haas this year.

[Ferrari2183]

We are basically looking at Ferrari chassis/aero technology.
Therefore I don't see Haas as independent constructor, so i'm not impressed.

Only that it is it not... It is a chassis designed and built by Dallara using the Ferrari wind tunnel.

I fully expect teams like Sauber, Force India and Williams to complain about said approach if the results continue to go Haas' way.

[Timstr11]

Sauber depended on Ferrari and BMW
Toro Rosso on Red Bull
Force India on Mclaren and Mercedes

The fact that Haas is doing it so well out of the bat is what is shocking .
We need more teams like these since it is now obvious that teams like FI, Williams, STR and Mclaren have stagnated and not moving the sport forward after they get shown up by Haas this year.

 

Sauber are designing their own chassis and aero as does Toro Rosso.

 

No compaqrison to what Haas has done together with Ferrari.

Haas are getting prize money next year which other tea

[turssi]

This approach might kill off Sauber and FI.

[f1rules]

Haas had what ferrari needed the most, extra windtunnel time, and Haas gained hugely from that, getting basicly last years ferrari, im sure there will be some serious discussion regarding this

[Seanspeed]

We are basically looking at Ferrari chassis/aero technology.

Therefore I don't see Haas as an independent constructor, so i'm not impressed.

Nobody asked you if you were impressed.  

 

And honestly, it's funny - when people first saw the car debuted, many people were super unimpressed and said it was going to be a back-of-the-grid car based on how bulky and undeveloped it looked.  They clearly borrowed a lot from Ferrari in terms of front/rear wing, suspension and powertrain, but the rest was up to them and they had to run the car and organization as a whole in a competent manner, which they've done with flying colors. 

 

Either way, what's being asked is whether or not this is good for F1.  Not whether it impressed you personally. 

[Jonnycraig37]

We are basically looking at Ferrari chassis/aero technology.
Therefore I don't see Haas as an independent constructor, so i'm not impressed.

Eh? Haas have been very open all along that they intended to buy everything off the shelf initially but bring things inhouse year by year until they are just receiving the powertrain every winter.

[Fastcake]

As long as Haas move towards becoming more independent in the next few years, it should be okay. They'll never be fully competitive at the front without building the chassis themselves anyway, so if should be in Haas' interest, if they have a real ambition to fight for championships.

[Timstr11]

Nobody asked you if you were impressed.  

 

And honestly, it's funny - when people first saw the car debuted, many people were super unimpressed and said it was going to be a back-of-the-grid car based on how bulky and undeveloped it looked.  They clearly borrowed a lot from Ferrari in terms of front/rear wing, suspension and powertrain, but the rest was up to them and they had to run the car and organization as a whole in a competent manner, which they've done with flying colors. 

 

Either way, what's being asked is whether or not this is good for F1.  Not whether it impressed you personally. 

 

I don't care if I was asked.

 

If a new team had come in with Mercedes backing in the same way, this forum would've been too small.

You should design the chassis/aero yourself and earn the prize money.

Next year, Haas will have a nice windfall with prize money earned with a car that was designed by a top team.

Edited by Timstr11, 03 April 2016 - 16:55.

[Myrvold]

The issue with it, is that it basically shows half the grid that it is better to stop doing your own car, and buy one. There isn't much point in Sauber, Manor, Force India doing what they are doing right now.

Short term it can make it brilliant to watch, but you get even more dependent on the big teams, and they get even more power in the sport, which really isn't a good thing.

Edited by Myrvold, 03 April 2016 - 16:56.

[noikeee]

I think it's good for F1, but only on the condition it doesn't open the door for full customer cars a further step ahead of this. Because that's a very dangerous door to open that could push F1 into a CART one-make situation or a DTM massive-team-orders situation.

[Laster]

Yes, it's good to see a successful new team immediately capable of competing, though I am hoping they gradually take on more responsibility for building their car as time goes on, and are less and less reliant on Ferrari.

[discover23]

Sauber are designing their own chassis and aero as does Toro Rosso.

No compaqrison to what Haas has done together with Ferrari.
Haas are getting prize money next year which other tea

They went to Dallara for that. Why no one else think of that before it beats me since Dallara is an established formula chasis builder. Nothing wrong with that.. They are smart

[Treads]

Haas performance make me think Manor, HRT and Caterham are raging morons for not taking this approach to begin with.
Also makes me think the list of listed parts should be longer. In principle they aren't supposed to be able to buy in performance differentiators but obviously they can.
But this is less bad than STR being able to share pretty much a whole car with RB back in the day.
Also makes me think Williams and Sauber are doing horribly horribly badly, with their strong engines, if the newbies are killing them like this.

[Myrvold]

Eh? Haas have been very open all along that they intended to buy everything off the shelf initially but bring things inhouse year by year until they are just receiving the powertrain every winter.

 

Not so sure about that.
 

 

 

We want to race cars and not get too much involved with production,” he (Gene Haas) adds.

[wonk123]

Boo hoo for everyone who's team is getting beaten by Haas. They are doing everything within the rules. They have a good budget, good drivers and good management.

They were smart enough not to rush the 2015 entry and are reaping the rewards

[johnmhinds]

It's good for Haas at the moment but I don't see it playing out that well in the long run.

 

They aren't going to have Ferrari there to design a car for them every year.

[noikeee]

Haas performance make me think Manor, HRT and Caterham are raging morons for not taking this approach to begin with.

 

They signed up to F1 on a wrong assumption F1 were going to cut costs massively and allow teams to run a season on 40 million dollars or something like that, which was a short-lived plan by Max Mosley that was quickly scrapped once they had already committed to F1. They basically were cheated by F1 to make up the numbers.

 

In fact HRT kinda tried to go this route as they also teamed up with Dallara, but ran out of funds before the first season even began.

[Red17]

The issue with it, is that it basically shows half the grid that it is better to stop doing your own car, and buy one. There isn't much point in Sauber, Manor, Force India doing what they are doing right now.

Short term it can make it brilliant to watch, but you get even more dependent on the big teams, and they get even more power in the sport, which really isn't a good thing.

 

That was how must teams operated well into the 70's!

[Seanspeed]

It's good for Haas at the moment but I don't see it playing out that well in the long run.

 

They aren't going to have Ferrari there to design a car for them every year.

Yup, remember Toro Rosso?  As soon as they were asked to design their own cars, they disappeared. 

[Seanspeed]

I find it hilarious that if you go back and read the car thread when it was debuted, everybody though it looked terrible and bulky.  They bought parts from Ferrari, but much of the important aspects were still down to their own doing.  

[Myrvold]

That was how must teams operated well into the 70's!

 

Yes, but you have seen the contstructor championship tables from these days?

[Buttoneer]

I think we really need room for both models (Haas and starting from scratch), but I think as some point Haas should be forced to go bespoke.  Give them two years of customer hand-me-downs and then make them go it alone.  It's not particularly fair on the smaller teams whose budget has to be spent on proper development.  I'm cautiously OK with this, for that reason.

[kvyatfan]

Right in the mix from the start, great for the grid.

[LeClerc]

The issue with it, is that it basically shows half the grid that it is better to stop doing your own car, and buy one. There isn't much point in Sauber, Manor, Force India doing what they are doing right now.

Short term it can make it brilliant to watch, but you get even more dependent on the big teams, and they get even more power in the sport, which really isn't a good thing.

 

I'm quite sure you cannot buy a Haas chassis from Dallara. You might be able to source some of your design work there, and the actual building of the tub, but not just walz in with a wad of money and buy a finished one.

[YoungGun]

Power to Haas, other teams take notice.

[ensign14]

Haas has shown more in two races than either Caterham or HRT could achieve in eight seasons combined. They're much more competitive and assuming it's no longer possible to set up a proper team from scratch, then their model is the only credible approach to modern F1.

 

It always was the only way to approach F1.  Even Ferrari started running someone else's car - and only survived by taking over Lancia's. 

 

The only other pure start-up that has succeeded in the last 25 years was Stewart - and they had gigantic sums of money behind them.  The days of being able to put together bodywork around an off-the-peg engine/gearbox have long gone.  Remember Caterham et al were sold the pup that there was going to be costs caps so they wouldn't be behind for long.

 

The question is whether Manor, Sauber and FI can survive long enough for Mercedes to make them their B team proper.  Red Bull and Ferrari already have one, so...

[Red17]

Yes, but you have seen the contstructor championship tables from these days?

 

First of all, there wasn't a constructor's championship to begin with!

Second, ask any team what the main goal is and they will tell you it's about getting the main driver to the top! Did you see today's race? What was the first graph that they showed? Hmmm... could it have been the drivers championship? Yes, sure, one guy that I just quoted carea bout constructors, funny how must people here are still rooting for DRIVERS.

Third, been demonstrated over and over that factory teams are a cancer, they spend billions, start messing with the rules and finally leave when a new CEO takes over. Privatters are the true soul of racing, has always been!

[Jonnycraig37]

Not so sure about that.

Think you're confusing their early plans for their long term plans.

Haas has stated several times that his long term plan is for other teams to come to them for CNC work..

[BalanceUT]

I'd like to see the Haas entry model as the model for a new team entering. After year one, the number of parts that must be in-house designs increases year by year until they are more in line with what is believed to be the spirit of a "constructor". There should be no points penalties for following that model. There should be care taken to make sure that new teams are not simply rebranding, recycling of ownership, etc. There must be a more gradual and attainable on-ramp for entry. The high cost of entry is off putting to many racing corporations in the world (particularly in the US) who see no reason to risk their money. 

 

Also, the rules that say a team can't earn FOM dollars for high constructors finishes have to be eliminated. That's just bogus, IMO. Full credit to anyone who walks in and wins points, period. 

[Myrvold]

I'm quite sure you cannot buy a Haas chassis from Dallara. You might be able to source some of your design work there, and the actual building of the tub, but not just walz in with a wad of money and buy a finished one.

It's put to the extreme in my post.

I don't think it's much of a secret that Ferrari got more windtunnel time out of the deal, and I also think it's fair to say that Haas/Dallara have got quite a bit of input from Ferrari as well when it comes to the car.
It's not quite Super Aguri though.

[jjcale]

Its a better economic model ... and its more effective on the track. 

 

Good bye Force India and Sauber (and possibly Williams) - in their current forms anyway. 

 

There are some deep issues that need to be considered but on balance, I am comfortable with this model - and its likely consequences. 

[anyeis]

They didnt need to follow the rules for this car. I think they will go straight to back of the field next year

Edited by anyeis, 03 April 2016 - 17:32.

[AlexS]

I think we really need room for both models (Haas and starting from scratch), but I think as some point Haas should be forced to go bespoke.  Give them two years of customer hand-me-downs and then make them go it alone.  It's not particularly fair on the smaller teams whose budget has to be spent on proper development.  I'm cautiously OK with this, for that reason.

 

Really?

 

And 5-10 years to start build their engine ? or engines are not part of an F1 car for some mysterious reason?

 

And why is not fair? you allocate the resources where they make sense to you. Haas proved in case they allocated their resources better than others.

[Nemo1965]

I have a question. Does anyone serious believe that if Tony Fernandez would have had the same deal as Gene Haas with the Ferrari-parts, he would have done an comparable good job?

 

I don't. It might be that the 'Haas-way' will have repercussions for F1, but please let not underestimate the great job the team has done.

[whitewaterMkII]

I think many here forget that Haas has been racing a long time, in one of the most competitive series in the world. NASCAR, also heavily dependent on aero performance, and in a sense he ran his NASCAR team much the same as his F1 team, sourcing best of the best components and fitting them into his existing race program. This is nothing new to him. 

He's won championships using this business model, although I doubt he'll ever win one in F1.

The guy put together a helluva team, using the exact same rules that others have had the benefit of doing, yet have not. 

All the bleating about the aero data sharing is really laughable, if it was such a huge advantage, then why hasn't Ferrari been at the top of the time sheets? And next year, Haas will have to do their own aero, which they have already started on. Haas has already said they are already working on their 2017 car, which I haven't heard of many others doing yet.

What a bunch of whiners....

[Myrvold]

First of all, there wasn't a constructor's championship to begin with!

Second, ask any team what the main goal is and they will tell you it's about getting the main driver to the top! Did you see today's race? What was the first graph that they showed? Hmmm... could it have been the drivers championship? Yes, sure, one guy that I just quoted carea bout constructors, funny how must people here are still rooting for DRIVERS.

Third, been demonstrated over and over that factory teams are a cancer, they spend billions, start messing with the rules and finally leave when a new CEO takes over. Privatters are the true soul of racing, has always been!

So we are not talking about the 70's, but pre 1958 now? Looking almost 60 years back, that's not too relevant is it? And what are you going on about for the rest of the post?

When there was customer cars in the old days, those teams scored for the constructor (e.g Tyrrell 1968 and 1970), which was what I was thinking of...

 

And yes, privateers are the true soul of racing - not a good thing giving other teams more power then is it?

[RacingXO]

I don't care if I was asked.

 

If a new team had come in with Mercedes backing in the same way, this forum would've been too small.

You should design the chassis/aero yourself and earn the prize money.

Next year, Haas will have a nice windfall with prize money earned with a car that was designed by a top team.

 

I just want to see as much exiting race as possible. Haas brings that no matter who designed the car...

[johnmhinds]

Yup, remember Toro Rosso?  As soon as they were asked to design their own cars, they disappeared. 

 

After they stopped using the Red Bull cast offs they spent half a decade adrift at the back of the grid before their recent slow rises in performance.

[maximilian]

Haas being competitive is one of the FEW bright spots in F1 right now.  If they had turned out to be hopeless backmarkers a la Caterham/Virgin/HRT yet AGAIN, it would have been a huge disappointment.  Much better this way!  And as many have rightly noted, back in the day, everybody basically started out by buying and modifying someone else's car.  It's the true spirit of entering F1.