181 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

We all now the best of the best of the large history of the Indy 500.

But in now 99 races we had 758 drivers races in the Indy 500.

Some of them are not that well-known but have interesting stories.

 

We had also very interesting cars and engines at the Indy 500. I think the first turbo-charged engine in formula racing was entered at the Indy 500 if I'm not wrong.

 

And in 99 races there were also some strange and special racing moments.

 

So it's time to collect some interesting details about the history of the oldest still-racing event.

[ensign14]

No Smith has started the 500.

 

Only one starting car has ever had the number 85. 

 

Two drivers are on the Borg Warner despite never having led a lap.

[PeterElleray]

and somebody still has my 1988 entry badge that was swiped on qualification day.

[Henri Greuter]

It is the one place that appears to keep streaks and jinxés running.

 

- The Anddretti family escaped the curse only a single time.

 

- Since Lola won their first race in 1966 they had to wait 12 years for a following victory in 1978 and they yet another 12 years for their next victory in 1990. Even in years that at least 80 or more % of the starting field was made up of Lolas in the yeasrs around 1990, no victory.

 

- Had Rick Mears not retired prematurely he would have been a six time winner. His first victory in '79 was followed by a second 5 years later (84). That one was followed by a third 4 years later (88), and a fourth 3 years later (91). Rick quit but had he continued the streak would have been that 2 years after 1991 he would have won his 5th year in '93 and one year later in '94. Well, Team Penske won those races of '93 and '94 so it was not out of the question....

 

- Sixcylinder engines won only twice in the first 100 years of the event. the very first one ever and the very first one after WorldWar II. Would sixes have won a race after 2011 had it not been for the fact that they couldn't loose an race from 2012 anymore since the V6 configuration had become mandatory and the only one allowed?

 

Henri

[B Squared]

It is the one place that appears to keep streaks and jinxés running.
 - The Anddretti family escaped the curse only a single time.

Mario has said numerous times that he feels that he has been blessed in regards to his career and winning even once at Indianapolis. He says it most eloquently in the Imax Superspeedway film. The "curse" angle is a media product, unless you (in general, not Henri in particular) are a believer in such things.

Edited by B Squared, 06 April 2016 - 17:15.

[D28]

Mario has said numerous times that he feels that he has been blessed in regards to his career and winning even once at Indianapolis. He says it most eloquently in the Imax Superspeedway film. The "curse" angle is a media product, unless you (in general, not Henri in particular) are a believer in such things.

Lloyd Ruby would tend to agree with Mario. No driver was more qualified, or ran better there, but a victory just eluded him.

[Henri Greuter]

Mario has said numerous times that he feels that he has been blessed in regards to his career and winning even once at Indianapolis. He says it most eloquently in the Imax Superspeedway film. The "curse" angle is a media product, unless you (in general, not Henri in particular) are a believer in such things.

 

 

I think that Mario is indeed entirely right with his comment. He has at least won once, how many drivers who had the race locked up on several occasions lost it? But when you think about the stories about the Andretti's other then 1969, or that other family so cruelly treated by the speedway; The Bettenhausen's; well then it becomes difficult to shake of such feelings.

The more while there are other drivers who won multiple times but appeared to have had the race coming to them against the odds at least once.

 

By the way Brian, I certainly don't believe in the Novi Jinx anymore!!!! That one can at least scientifically be proven to be a myth.... 

 

 

Henri

[E1pix]

I don't tend to believe in curses, either, but there's been many instances that make me wonder:
-- Mario really should have won at least five times (sorry);
-- He and son Jeff both getting hurt in 1992 (what are the odds?);
-- Michael having it in the bag several times, but alas...;
-- The Bettenhausen dramas, particularly Gary's in my witnessing -- made me wanna shed tears every year for him;
-- Mike Mosley being so close so many times;
-- At the risk of raising a bad memory, Brian, was Scott Brayton the only polesitter to not make the grid? (RIP)

The Brickyard does seem to have a nasty habit of rejecting those who love it the most.

(And on a personal note, so bummed to not be able to make our first live witnessing this year!)

[HistoryFan]

 

- Sixcylinder engines won only twice in the first 100 years of the event. the very first one ever and the very first one after WorldWar II. Would sixes have won a race after 2011 had it not been for the fact that they couldn't loose an race from 2012 anymore since the V6 configuration had become mandatory and the only one allowed?

 

Henri

 

Interesting point but I think in older years many engines had big engines...

[Collombin]

-- He and son Jeff both getting hurt in 1992 (what are the odds?)

That particular treacherous year, and with that many Andrettis competing? I'd go for about evens.

Anyway, I would have thought getting an impromptu kiss from Andy Granatelli was sufficient incentive to avoid ever winning another 500.

It's a little strange that the Andrettis beat the Unsers 4-0 for rookie of the year awards, but for actually winning the race it's 9-1 the other way.

Edited by E.B., 06 April 2016 - 22:00.

[ensign14]

On the other hand no Andretti has died at Indianapolis.

 

If you want strange cars, then Indy has had its fair share...

 

 

 

 

And the first monocoque racing car?

 

[nexfast]

I don't tend to believe in curses, either, but there's been many instances that make me wonder:
-- Mario really should have won at least five times (sorry);
-- He and son Jeff both getting hurt in 1992 (what are the odds?);
-- Michael having it in the bag several times, but alas...;

Not to forget Marco being overtaken by Sam Hornish 100 metres or so from the flag in 2006.

[ensign14]

That wasn't a jinx, that was Marco bottling it.  Although I can't remember if a late yellow cost Michael the race.

[Graham Clayton]

The top 10 finishers in the 1912 Indianapolis 500 had to complete the 500 miles in order to receive their prizemoney. Ralph Mulford had multiple problems in his Knox, and kept going in order to finish 10^th.  He took close to 9 hours to complete the 500 miles, with an average speed of only 56 mph (90 kmh), which is still the slowest finishing speed in Indy history.

[Collombin]

At least nobody could pretend he was the real winner that year.

[HistoryFan]

On the other hand no Andretti has died at Indianapolis.

 

If you want strange cars, then Indy has had its fair share...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

what are these two cars?

When und who?

[B Squared]

Upper photo: Ken Hamilton 1982

https://www.google.c...5UQsAQIGw&dpr=1

Lower photo: Smokey Yunick's 1964 sidecar with Bobby Johns

http://www.macsmotor...ks-capsule-car/

[ensign14]

Needless to say, both failed to qualify.  Hamilton's Crop Duster was about 40mph off the pace and happier to spin than Massa.  Allegedly it had aircraft designers involved.

 

I dread to think what would have happened had the sidecar spun and hit the wall driver side first...

[B Squared]

I dread to think what would have happened had the sidecar spun and hit the wall driver side first...

Could have been similar results in a "proper" racecar in that period.

[racinggeek]

Needless to say, both failed to qualify.  Hamilton's Crop Duster was about 40mph off the pace and happier to spin than Massa.  Allegedly it had aircraft designers involved.

 

I dread to think what would have happened had the sidecar spun and hit the wall driver side first...

 

Smokey's rationale, with which he supposedly had statistics to back him up, was that rarely if ever did a car hit the walls at IMS left-side-first, at least at that time. Can't vouch for the accuracy of his stats.

 

And while I need to verfiy this, I seem to recall the sidecar wasn't embarrassingly off the pace. The Crop Duster, though ... 

Edited by racinggeek, 07 April 2016 - 20:50.

[Collombin]

I can think of a few left side impacts. Luckily when Johns did prang it, he hit the wall rear end first.

[Henri Greuter]

I can think of a few left side impacts. Luckily when Johns did prang it, he hit the wall rear end first.

 

The one that comes to my mind first is poor Dave MacDonald in 1964.And still that lone fuel tank on the right burst....

 

BTW, te STP turbine was hailed as an utterly safe design but if there was one driver close to the wall...... If he had crashed it on the right side.....

 

 

 

henri

[Collombin]

I don't think Yunick could use any 1964 crashes as justification for a car that had already been built!

Edited by E.B., 08 April 2016 - 06:56.

[Henri Greuter]

I don't think Yunick could use any 1964 crashes as justification for a car that had already been built!

 

True.

I only mentioned MacDonald since you mentioned left side inpacts to be so rare. That the one I can think of first happened in of all years 1964 is just a mere coincidence and has nothing to do with Yunick's Pre-May 1964 observations justifying his design.

 

 

henri

[Collombin]

I only mentioned MacDonald since you mentioned left side inpacts to be so rare.

Did I? Admittedly they are slightly rarer than I thought as one of the ones I had in mind was Mike Magill in 1959, but forgot that left becomes right when the car in question is upside down!

[Henri Greuter]

Did I? Admittedly they are slightly rarer than I thought as one of the ones I had in mind was Mike Magill in 1959, but forgot that left becomes right when the car in question is upside down!

??

 

Did I misunderstood/misreadpost #21 ????  In which case, Sorry for causing the commotion.

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 April 2016 - 08:58.

[HistoryFan]

100 years produces also some crazy statistics.

Dixon is the man with the most consecutive miles (3415). Who is second one?

[Collombin]

What are consecutive miles? Ted Horn would be way up there, but I think he got flagged at 199 laps one year mid-streak.

[Michael Ferner]

Who is second? Dixon is second. Horn has 4497 miles and 2640 feet.

[Rob G]

The one that comes to my mind first is poor Dave MacDonald in 1964.And still that lone fuel tank on the right burst....

 

BTW, te STP turbine was hailed as an utterly safe design but if there was one driver close to the wall...... If he had crashed it on the right side.....

 

 

 

henri

MacDonald hit with the right side of the car. The one that came to mind for me was Duke Nalon's fiery crash with the outside wall in 1949.

[Graham Clayton]

Although Bill Homeier finished 33rd and last in the 1954 Indianapolis 500, he completed 74 laps before retiring, which is still the most laps by a last-placed finisher. 

 

[Collombin]

And yet other drivers that year did fewer laps.

The flip side of course is Jacques Villeneuve - most laps completed by a first placed finisher!

Edited by E.B., 09 April 2016 - 09:33.

[Henri Greuter]

MacDonald hit with the right side of the car. The one that came to mind for me was Duke Nalon's fiery crash with the outside wall in 1949.

 

 

Damn' you're right on both accounts! MacDonald made a 180 degreee turn and hit the inside wall.

 

 

Henri

[HistoryFan]

 

Although Bill Homeier finished 33rd and last in the 1954 Indianapolis 500, he completed 74 laps before retiring, which is still the most laps by a last-placed finisher. 

 

 

 

very interesting!
 

[Rob G]

In 1931, Billy Arnold crashed while leading. He broke his pelvis, and his riding mechanic Spider Matlock suffered a broken shoulder.

In 1932, Billy Arnold crashed while leading. He broke his shoulder, and his riding mechanic Spider Matlock suffered a broken pelvis.

[Collombin]

Peter Revson qualified for the pole in 1971 at record speeds.

His time would not have been quick enough to qualify for the 1972 race.

[HistoryFan]

were the rule changes or was just the development that fast in that time?

[Collombin]

USAC allowed wings for the first time, so the wedge shaped cars of 1971 were now replaced with cars that had massive rear wings. I believe they were much slower in terms of top speed along the straights, but obviously gained enormously in the turns.

[E1pix]

And yet other drivers that year did fewer laps.
The flip side of course is Jacques Villeneuve - most laps completed by a first placed finisher!

I know he was two laps down, but wouldn't he have still done only 200 laps?

[Collombin]

He was docked 2 laps, so drove 202 laps to win.

[D28]

The 1981 500 featured 2 winners, or 3 if you follow the sequence of USAC decisions. First Bobby Unser won on track, over Marion Andretti.

He was subsequently penalized 1 lap for passing under yellow at the pits exit. Mario was declared the winner. Penske racing appealed this decision, and the protests and appeals went on until Oct 9. Finally Unser was reinstated as  the winner, but the whole process left USAC looking very amateurish. No one was really satisfied with the results. Unser was fined $40,000 for the passing infraction; he became disillusioned with racing, set out the 1982 500 and retired in 1983.

[E1pix]

He was docked 2 laps, so drove 202 laps to win.

That's right, Thanks.

[jonpollak]

Where's Donald Davidson when ya need him...

 

Jp

[Collombin]

We don't need him yet do we? Although he would deny it (thoroughly nice chap that he is), I bet he gets bored senseless by having to regurgitate the same old stories year after year after year.

[Vitesse2]

In 1931 Dave Evans, driving the Cummins Diesel Special, became the first driver to complete the 500 without refuelling - he used just 22 gallons, finishing 13th, although the team's objective was to demonstrate endurance rather than speed. More impressively, Cliff Bergere ran non-stop in 1941, using a conventionally-fuelled car, and finished fifth.

[Collombin]

The Cummins 1931 effort would have been more impressive if they had qualified on merit.

[Vitesse2]

The Cummins 1931 effort would have been more impressive if they had qualified on merit.

I know there were three faster non-qualifiers, but wasn't that more a function of Indy's arcane qualification rules and the size of the field that year (40)? The Cummins started 17th and seems to have been the slowest day 1 qualifier, but there appear to have been four qualifying sessions: day 1 1-17, day 2 18-24, day 3 25-33, day 4 34-40. The three faster cars presumably lost out on Bump Day? As well as the Cummins, the cars in grid positions 31-33 were also slower than the last qualifier in 40th place.

[Collombin]

Being slower than the last placed car is not a big deal. However, the Cummins was slower than at least one car that failed to qualify. Diesels had a special dispensation that guaranteed a starting position if they qualified at above some pathetically slow speed.

[Collombin]

The key point (that I failed to make) is that although grid positions were largely determined by which day you qualified on, an overriding rule was that it would always be the fastest 33 (or 40!) cars that started the race, irrespective of when they qualified. Hence the Cummins did not make it on merit.

[HistoryFan]

He was docked 2 laps, so drove 202 laps to win.

don't understand why he drove 202 laps?