44 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

In the 30s the GP cars had no minimum weight biut a maximum weight. I think the reason for that was the opinion: The lighter the cars, the less big is the engine. Is that right?

 

The first minimum weight of a F1 car was introduced in 1961 (450 kilos), since then it was a step by step climp up to 725 kilos in 2017.

Why was it introduced in 1961?

 

For 1966 it was raised to 500 kg, I think because of the 3.0-litres era. Would the teams had problems to reach the 450 kg limit with the bigger engines?

1970/71 the minimum weight was raised to 530 kg - just for the speed to slow down or why this? Because of the wings?

Until 1973 it was raised to 585 kg - so again: Why this?

 

In the 80s to 1994 the minimum weight was reduced step by step until 505 kg? Why now this opposite direction?

 

Then with all the safety installations, with the modern engines and so on the weight was raised step by step to 725 kilos now. 

[2F-001]

In the past, a minimum weight limit might have been thought to discourage flimsy construction (whereas, now structural integrity can be monitored more accurately) and to some extent limit costs too, since lightness and strength implies more costly materials and techniques - not too successful on the latter point though.

 

Presumably weights were increased recently to accommodate the various regenerative and hybrid systems.

 

​I believe the current, seemingly 'heavy', minimum weight limit includes the driver.

[kayemod]

The answers to all these questions can be found very easily with a few minutes Googling.

[Roger Clark]

There were, of course, minimum weight limits during the 1920s and the last two years of the 1930s.  

 

Minimum weight was increased gradually during the early 1970s to accommodate increased requirements for safety features such as fire extinguishers and deformable structures.  In the 1980s there were reductions in a vain attempt to make atmospheric engines more competitive with turbos.  The history is well explained in doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix Car 1996-91.

 

I will post more detail later today if nobody does  so - or posts a link to a reliable website.

[bill p]

The answers to all these questions can be found very easily with a few minutes Googling.

Yes, Google can be used to answer a lot of questions posed.......

[Roger Clark]

This is the history of weight limits, taken from Doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-91.  Any errors are more likely to be mine than his.

 

1966 - Start of 3/1.5-litre formula. minimum weight 500kg

1970 - Mandatory fire extinguishers, rubber bag safety fuel tanks, more robust roll-over bars.  Minimum weight increased to 530kg

1972 - Weight increased to 550kg.

1973 - Deformable structure fuel tank protection, minimum weight increased to 575kg

1981 - Minimum weight 585kg, reduced by 5kg when sliding skirts were banned.  This was a level the 3-litre cars could achieve but the turbos could not.

1983 - Weight reduced to 540kg "as yet another sop to the few surviving non-turbocharged runners".

1987 - New formula: 1.5-litre turbos 540kg, 3.5-litre non-turbos 500kg

1989 - 3.5-litre non-turbos only.  500kg.

[Cirrus]

It's fascinating to read those numbers from the perspective of the race category I'm directly involved with - Historic FF2000. The weight limit for an FF2000 car is 440kg and many cars are somewhat over that figure. A 3 Litre F1 car with a big engine and gearbox and increased space for fuel must have been fairly flimsy to have got anywhere near 500kg in 1966.

[HistoryFan]

This is the history of weight limits, taken from Doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-91.  Any errors are more likely to be mine than his.

 

1966 - Start of 3/1.5-litre formula. minimum weight 500kg

1970 - Mandatory fire extinguishers, rubber bag safety fuel tanks, more robust roll-over bars.  Minimum weight increased to 530kg

1972 - Weight increased to 550kg.

1973 - Deformable structure fuel tank protection, minimum weight increased to 575kg

1981 - Minimum weight 585kg, reduced by 5kg when sliding skirts were banned.  This was a level the 3-litre cars could achieve but the turbos could not.

1983 - Weight reduced to 540kg "as yet another sop to the few surviving non-turbocharged runners".

1987 - New formula: 1.5-litre turbos 540kg, 3.5-litre non-turbos 500kg

1989 - 3.5-litre non-turbos only.  500kg.

So thanks for that.

Edited by HistoryFan, 11 May 2016 - 19:17.

[PeterElleray]

Looking back through the 1969 yellow book there might be some discrepency with the 530kg listed as being introduced in 1970...

 

Three safety measures were introduced in the 1969 edition, each one carrying an increase of 10kg in the minimum weight that had been 500kg since the start of the formula in 1966.

 

These were a) 5kg fire extinguisher b) more substantial roll over structure with specified materials and dimensions and c) safety fuel bag tanks.

 

a) and b) were madatory as from 1st March 1969, ie the 1969 South African GP, whereas c) (tanks) was mandated from 1st January 1970 (ie 1970 South African GP).

 

The yellow book still lists the minimum weight as 500kg (as indeed it would be when the book was printed prior to March 1st 1969) and so by this logic, the limit should have been 520kg between March 1st '69 and Feb 28th 1970, and 530kg after that (until the 1972 update, when 16swg outer skins were mandated - many cars had used 20swg).

 

All those yellow books can be downloaded on the Fia website - HISTORYFAN ! - and a fascinating insight into the full development of the complete set of international regulations for Formulae 1,2,3 and Group 4,5,6 sports cars can be  traced through.

 

Peter

Edited by PeterElleray, 11 May 2016 - 23:36.

[Alan Baker]

If you were driving an H-16 BRM (or a Cooper-Maserati, or a Honda), you could only dream of being anywhere near 500kg!

[Roger Clark]

Motoring News (24/10/68) reported the requirement for new safety systems and said that the minimum weight would be increased by 10kg as each system was introduced, so 520kg in 1969 as speculated by Peter Elleray.

[Charlieman]

The answers to all these questions can be found very easily with a few minutes Googling.

Responses and further queries may be found. But no answers, so perhaps the question is difficult to close.

 

We've had a few responses about the 1.5 litre F1 period onwards and we've learned a bit. Let's assume that we seek more answers.

[E1pix]

Yes, Google can be used to answer a lot of questions posed.......

...and then, using all of Google's brilliance, further information will be found on a lovely little site called The Nostalgia Forum.

[Michael Ferner]

The answers to all these questions can be found very easily with a few minutes Googling.

 

So, we can finally close down TNF, no longer needed due to Mr. google having all the answers. Mission accomplished or failed  - what's the final verdict for TNF?

[JacnGille]

So, we can finally close down TNF, no longer needed due to Mr. google having all the answers. Mission accomplished or failed  - what's the final verdict for TNF?

Google knows more than the TNF???????    

[kayemod]

Google knows more than the TNF???????    

 

No, but for those who just can't be arsed to use TNF's SEARCH function, it's the next best option.

[E1pix]

Then we'd be scolded that it was already discussed -- like everything else here.

[D-Type]

I think it often comes down to whether the questioner is seeking an answer to the specific question asked or is really wanting a discussion about the topic.

[Charlieman]

I think I copied all of this down correctly but there'll always be a slip or misunderstanding. 

---

Laurence Pomeroy's summary of GP regulations and changes from "The Grand Prix Car, 1906 - 1939":

 

1906 Max weight 1,000 kg.

1907 Fuel limited to 30 litres per 100 km (9.4 mpg).

1908 Max piston area 117 sq in. Min weight 1,150 kg.

1912 Max width of car 1.75 metres.

1913 Fuel limited to 20 litres per 100 km (14.12 mpg). Min weight 800 kg. Max weight 1,100 kg.

1914 Max engine capacity 4.5 litres. Min weight 1,100 kg.

1921 Max engine capacity 3.0 litres. Min weight empty 800 kg.

1922/23/24 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. End of tail not more than 1.5 metre beyond rear wheel centre.

** 1924 and all preceding years (Or is it 1921? Pomeroy is unclear to me.) All cars required to carry min two occupants weighing not less than 120 kg in total (or equivalent in ballast). 

1925 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1926 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1927 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. One or two seater body, min 0.85 metres. One occupant (driver).

1928 Min weight 550 kg. Max weight 750 kg. Min race distance 600 km, but rule only observed at Italian GP.

1929 Min weight 900 kg. Min body width 1.0 metre. Pump fuel. Fuel plus oil limited to 14 kg per 100 km. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1930 Pump fuel rule relaxed to permit 30% Benzol. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1931 Any type of car. Min race duration 10 hours.

1932 Any type of car. Race duration 5 to 10 hours.

1933 Any type of car. Race duration 500 km.

1934/35/36/37 Max weight 750 kg. Min body width 0.85 metre. Weight is for car with wheels and oil; without fuel, tyres, water, tools etc.

1938/39 Effectively max engine capacity 3.0 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre without. Min weight 850 kg (see above for definition).

 

Try finding that in one place on the internet before today ;-)

[Charlieman]

Let us recall that F1 changed in the 1950s when an oversized engine in the back seat of an F2 Cooper scored points. To build a car capable of winning a GP in 1954, you'd have to make something capable of carrying a lot of alcohol mix on tyres with a lot of endurance. In 1960, that car would be at the back of the field.

 

A couple of rule changes favoured the revolution: fuel type and race length. On top of that (sic), minimum weight rules gave F1 away to the tiddly mid-engined Coopers.

[PeterElleray]

There were no minimum weight rules in the 2 1/2litre formula.

[Roger Clark]

Peter Elleray is right, of course, but even if he were not, I can't see how a minimum weight rule would favour smaller cars.  

[Roger Clark]

 

I think I copied all of this down correctly but there'll always be a slip or misunderstanding. 

---

Laurence Pomeroy's summary of GP regulations and changes from "The Grand Prix Car, 1906 - 1939":

 

1906 Max weight 1,000 kg.

1907 Fuel limited to 30 litres per 100 km (9.4 mpg).

1908 Max piston area 117 sq in. Min weight 1,150 kg.

1912 Max width of car 1.75 metres.

1913 Fuel limited to 20 litres per 100 km (14.12 mpg). Min weight 800 kg. Max weight 1,100 kg.

1914 Max engine capacity 4.5 litres. Min weight 1,100 kg.

1921 Max engine capacity 3.0 litres. Min weight empty 800 kg.

1922/23/24 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. End of tail not more than 1.5 metre beyond rear wheel centre.

** 1924 and all preceding years (Or is it 1921? Pomeroy is unclear to me.) All cars required to carry min two occupants weighing not less than 120 kg in total (or equivalent in ballast). 

1925 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1926 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1927 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. One or two seater body, min 0.85 metres. One occupant (driver).

1928 Min weight 550 kg. Max weight 750 kg. Min race distance 600 km, but rule only observed at Italian GP.

1929 Min weight 900 kg. Min body width 1.0 metre. Pump fuel. Fuel plus oil limited to 14 kg per 100 km. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1930 Pump fuel rule relaxed to permit 30% Benzol. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1931 Any type of car. Min race duration 10 hours.

1932 Any type of car. Race duration 5 to 10 hours.

1933 Any type of car. Race duration 500 km.

1934/35/36/37 Max weight 750 kg. Min body width 0.85 metre. Weight is for car with wheels and oil; without fuel, tyres, water, tools etc.

1938/39 Effectively max engine capacity 3.0 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre without. Min weight 850 kg (see above for definition).

 

Try finding that in one place on the internet before today ;-)

 

In 1938/39 there was a sliding scale linking engine capacity to minimum weight, although all (both?) serious competitors chose the maximum capacity allowed.  Many years ago, Don Capps posted the full capacity/weight limits, but I can't find it now.

[Charlieman]

Peter Elleray is right, of course, but even if he were not, I can't see how a minimum weight rule would favour smaller cars.  

The existence of low minimum weight regs meant that constructors could build as light as they wished. Not necessarily to win a GP but to compete.

 

And the race regulations -- fuel and race distance -- transformed GP/F1 racing. A Cooper could not race for 300 miles without refuelling on a single set of tyres -- but when the rules changed, light flimsy cars were good enough for 200 miles. And good luck and respect to the drivers.

 

Edit without touching content.

Edited by Charlieman, 16 May 2016 - 17:00.

[Roger Clark]

In 1938/39 there was a sliding scale linking engine capacity to minimum weight, although all (both?) serious competitors chose the maximum capacity allowed.  Many years ago, Don Capps posted the full capacity/weight limits, but I can't find it now.

Don has sent me a link to his post.

 

http://forums.autosp...=sliding weight

[PeterElleray]

The existence of low minimum weight regs meant that constructors could build as light as they wished. Not necessarily to win a GP but to compete.

 

And the race regulations -- fuel and race distance -- transformed GP/F1 racing. A Cooper could not race for 300 miles without refuelling on a single set of tyres -- but when the rules changed, light flimsy cars were good enough for 200 miles. And good luck and respect to the drivers.

 

Edit without touching content.

But there were no minimum weight regulations between 1954 and 1960! They built as light as they could , not down to a low regulation minimum. Your first sentance is contradictory.

[Charlieman]

But there were no minimum weight regulations between 1954 and 1960! They built as light as they could , not down to a low regulation minimum. Your first sentance is contradictory.

I believe that was part of my argument. We are arguing the same minor point.

[PeterElleray]

The first sentence of your 'argument' read :

 

"The existance of low minimum weight regs meant that constructors could build as light as they wished."

 

Were that the case (and it wasn't) then as Roger has pointed out, a minimum weight limit could only potentially hurt those constructors fitting oversize engines into 1500cc F2 cars (Lotus 12, Cooper).

 

If you had used the exact opposite argument  "The LACK OF A MINIMUM WEIGHT LIMIT meant that constructors could build as light as they wished" then it would make sense and would reflect what actually happened.

 

You can call that a minor point if you want.....

[Roger Clark]

I think Peter has put it very well!

 

However, it seems that most constructors couldn't get down to the minimum weight when one was introduced. Autocourse gave the following for the 1961 cars - 450kg limit, remember:

 

Ferrari - 500kg

Porsche - 480kg

Lotus 21 - 455kg

Cooper - 504kg

BRM-Climax  - 473kg

[PeterElleray]

Roger - thanks.

 

I was fortunate enough to be standing next to an original (1956 prorotype de dion) Lotus 12 a couple of weeks ago, and even if you are familiar with  the same generation of Lotus sports racers, low weight doesnt even begin to describe how flimsy it is! 

 

Quoted weight (dry - i hope) for the Chapman strut version in F2 trim is 5.75 cwt (292kg)! (Autocar, 1957). So the GP version must have been around 350kg?

[Charlieman]

We're not making us all look good.

[PeterElleray]

We're not some of us making a lot of sense neither...

[HistoryFan]

 

I think I copied all of this down correctly but there'll always be a slip or misunderstanding. 

---

Laurence Pomeroy's summary of GP regulations and changes from "The Grand Prix Car, 1906 - 1939":

 

1906 Max weight 1,000 kg.

1907 Fuel limited to 30 litres per 100 km (9.4 mpg).

1908 Max piston area 117 sq in. Min weight 1,150 kg.

1912 Max width of car 1.75 metres.

1913 Fuel limited to 20 litres per 100 km (14.12 mpg). Min weight 800 kg. Max weight 1,100 kg.

1914 Max engine capacity 4.5 litres. Min weight 1,100 kg.

1921 Max engine capacity 3.0 litres. Min weight empty 800 kg.

1922/23/24 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. End of tail not more than 1.5 metre beyond rear wheel centre.

** 1924 and all preceding years (Or is it 1921? Pomeroy is unclear to me.) All cars required to carry min two occupants weighing not less than 120 kg in total (or equivalent in ballast). 

1925 Max engine capacity 2.0 litres. Min weight empty 650 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1926 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. Two seater body, min 0.8 metres. One occupant (driver).

1927 Max engine capacity 1.5 litres. Min weight empty 600 kg. One or two seater body, min 0.85 metres. One occupant (driver).

1928 Min weight 550 kg. Max weight 750 kg. Min race distance 600 km, but rule only observed at Italian GP.

1929 Min weight 900 kg. Min body width 1.0 metre. Pump fuel. Fuel plus oil limited to 14 kg per 100 km. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1930 Pump fuel rule relaxed to permit 30% Benzol. Rules only observed at French and Spanish GPs.

1931 Any type of car. Min race duration 10 hours.

1932 Any type of car. Race duration 5 to 10 hours.

1933 Any type of car. Race duration 500 km.

1934/35/36/37 Max weight 750 kg. Min body width 0.85 metre. Weight is for car with wheels and oil; without fuel, tyres, water, tools etc.

1938/39 Effectively max engine capacity 3.0 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre without. Min weight 850 kg (see above for definition).

 

Try finding that in one place on the internet before today ;-)

 

 

Great stuff, thanks.

[wilsongt]

I disagree with the 'light, flimsy' comment, never thought of Coopers as being flimsy, but contained within it is an interesting point (which yes I am sure has been discussed many times before, apologies in advance)

What would a 50's Cooper have looked like if it was built for 500km and high octane fuel? Assuming Cooper did step up to F1, would the regulations have made little difference - a similar car, just a little bigger all round to fit in extra fuel capacity, and knock off hubs for tyre changes? Or might they simply have not trusted their Citroen gearbox and stuck with front engines (Whose engines I don't know) and the rear engined revolution delayed until the 1.5 litre formula?

[Charlieman]

I think Peter has put it very well!

 

However, it seems that most constructors couldn't get down to the minimum weight when one was introduced. Autocourse gave the following for the 1961 cars - 450kg limit, remember:

 

Ferrari - 500kg

Porsche - 480kg

Lotus 21 - 455kg

Cooper - 504kg

BRM-Climax  - 473kg

I think the bloke who wrote up Laurence Pomeroy's rules for a GP car had a good idea.

[PeterElleray]

Going to keep it a secret?

[Charlieman]

Going to keep it a secret?

Up above, Peter. It is not a secret.

[Roger Clark]

I think the bloke who wrote up Laurence Pomeroy's rules for a GP car had a good idea.

I'm sorry, that's beyond my level of understanding.

[PeterElleray]

No,  the list of rules and regulations that Pomeroy quoted in his book isnt , but the question i was asking is what you thought the  good idea was that the 'bloke' who wrote them up had?! There are quite a few possibilities in your list.....

[john aston]

The answers to all these questions can be found very easily with a few minutes Googling.

And we wonder why  this site is sometimes characterised as being the domain of grumpy curmudgeons.....Of course he can google- but isn't it better  to hear from like minded people ? And of course he can search- doubtless it has been discussed before but so what ? Never have the same conversation with a friend ? I do - and not only because I have forgotten we had it in the first place... 

[Roger Clark]

Roger - thanks.

 

I was fortunate enough to be standing next to an original (1956 prorotype de dion) Lotus 12 a couple of weeks ago, and even if you are familiar with  the same generation of Lotus sports racers, low weight doesnt even begin to describe how flimsy it is! 

 

Quoted weight (dry - i hope) for the Chapman strut version in F2 trim is 5.75 cwt (292kg)! (Autocar, 1957). So the GP version must have been around 350kg?

The Lotus 12 did look flimsy by any standards - I think the early Gordinis were the only cars that even came close.  I don't know whether the F1 version would have weighed much more - I haven't seen any references to extra fuel tanks being needed, even though Allison did complete the Belgian Grand Prix without need for a fuel stop.  The 2.0 and 2.2 Climax engines can't have weighed much more than the 1.5.  

 

It does make you understand why a minimum weight limit was introduced in 1961!

[PeterElleray]

Yes - and also why the 500 kg originally proposed for the 1500cc formula sent Chapman and , to a lesser extent Cooper and BRM, into a low earth orbit.

 

Having said that i have never accepted that weight = safe. There is a good interview with Chapman filmed for Wheelbase at the 1968 Mexican GP where he gives quite a passionate defence of his position on this, and  articles he wrote (ghosted?) dating back to the mid 1950's explaining the same.

 

I'm afraid that when you stand back and look at it just about every minimum weight limit - with the exception probably of the 1938 formula's sliding scale based on equivalent power:weight ratio - was introduced for political reasons.

[DCapps]

Here is something that might help with the sliding scale for piston displacement & weight introduced in 1938:

 

https://www.academia..._27_August_1939

[Lee Nicolle]

There were, of course, minimum weight limits during the 1920s and the last two years of the 1930s.  

 

Minimum weight was increased gradually during the early 1970s to accommodate increased requirements for safety features such as fire extinguishers and deformable structures.  In the 1980s there were reductions in a vain attempt to make atmospheric engines more competitive with turbos.  The history is well explained in doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix Car 1996-91.

 

I will post more detail later today if nobody does  so - or posts a link to a reliable website.

From vague memory turbos were both capacity and weight limited.

[DCapps]

I knew there was something on this buried with the depths of TNF somewhere....

 

http://forums.autosp...sliding +weight